C

Camillo

Well Known Member
OK. I am at the stage of propeller choice.

I am planning to install an IO-360 180HP with Raven/Christen inverted oil system and minimize other stuff weight to compensate (Plane power 30 amp. alternator, Aerovoltz 16 battery LifePo, all electric SkyView panel with one radio, one XNDR and one GPS, etc...).

I would like to use the airplane:
- to do some aerobatics;
- to land on short runways (1200');
- to fly almost always solo.

I believe a fixed pitch propeller would be OK for me. Climb rate is not critical for me and 180 HP is plenty enough, I suppose.

But...what kind of fixed pitch?
I heard good thinks about Catto.
Sensenich metal appears a bit heavy.
I am not sure to want a wood prop.

Any help?
Thanks.
Camillo
 
Camillo, you cannot go wrong with a Catto. Tell him what you want to do mostly and he'll pitch it for you. A friend of mine added his three blade with nickel leading edge and picked up 7 kts over the wooden prop.

The nickel is completely flush with the rest of the blade and protects it really well in the rain.

We put 500 hours on our -6A with his three blade and were faster than Van's numbers by a couple of MPH as well, if you don't mind turning it 2750-2800 RPM's. We wanted mainly top speed, so it only turned 2200 static but were still off the ground in under 900'.

Best,
 
short strip requirement

Your post mentions 1200' strips and it appears in your signature that you're currently flying behind a constant speed prop. You're probably fully aware.. but just a reminder that the fixed pitched RVs (especially a slick -4) won't slow like your current setup. I fly w/a CS RV-6 occasionally and am envious of the braking.

I currently have an aluminum sensenich that is pitched perfectly for my RV-4 w/IO-320.. but find myself wanting to try a 3 blade Catto or the new Sensenich ground adjustable carbon fiber 2 blade.

Congrats on your progress! Sounds like she'll be an awesome bird.

Stan
 
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Thanks. I will write to Catto and ask details. Do you roughly know what is the approximate weight of a Catto (three blades?) installation?

I believe that with a 180hp on a -4, which weights 70 kg. less than a -6, take off will not be an issue, even with a fixed pitch propeller. In addition, I mostly fly solo.

I also know that slowing in flight will be...slower, since the C/S propeller helps reducing speed. I believe that with some practice it will be ok.

The new sensenich is only rated for the o-320.

Thanks.
Camillo
 
Camillo said:
The new sensenich is only rated for the o-320.
Click to expand...

The rumor is that they're supposedly working on developing a version of the ground adjustable carbon fiber prop for the 360, but it's still very likely a long way off (maybe another year? wild guess) from being ready to sell... based on how long it took them to get the 320 GA prop to market.

There are some other brands of light weight composite CS props available (Whirlwind, MT, Hoffman, etc) that would work very well on an IO-360 RV-4 but at much higher costs...

EDIT: I just looked up Whirlwind, and they have a ground adjustable composite prop for the 360 engine available now.

http://whirlwindpropellers.com/?p=1637
 
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Thank-you.
Actually, I was oriented on a composite fixed pitch and since I heard good things about Catto I was asking of his propellers. But, there is no particular reason for not choosing another producer. In addition, I don't live in the USA so an european producer may be more convenient for overhaul or (SGRAT, SGRAT) repairs...
Having said that, if money had no value, I had chosen maybe an MT C/S.
Camillo
 
Light is right...

Camillo said:
Thank-you.
Actually, I was oriented on a composite fixed pitch and since I heard good things about Catto I was asking of his propellers. But, there is no particular reason for not choosing another producer. In addition, I don't live in the USA so an european producer may be more convenient for overhaul or (SGRAT, SGRAT) repairs...
Having said that, if money had no value, I had chosen maybe an MT C/S.
Camillo
Click to expand...
Camillo,
I bought the first Catto prop mounted on an RV4 back in 97' and have flown/tested 4 different iterations over the years. Good choice! IO-360 or IO-320 either one does fine, in fact I prefer a high compression 0-320 to the 0-360 as with it's shorter stroke and slightly lighter weight it seems to "pull" a bit better at low speeds.
Constant speed? vs fixed pitch is a popular debate on this forum but having owned and extensively flown both setups I prefer the lighter, simpler RV, less cost less weight. Shave 30-60 kilos off your airplane easy and save Ten Million Lira? It's a no brainer.
Slowing down? Honestly slowing an RV down is not that difficult (with practice) compared to many other aspects of aviation (like getting shot at!).
Acro? Unless you plan on alot of negative G stuff, I wouldn't even install an inverted fuel/oil system. Just more weight, hoses and complexity. I have lots of fun and perform "aeros" every flight but have never had an Inverted system on any of my 3 RV's.
Light weight? The Catto 2 blade is a home run in weight and performance. I will be testing his new blade design on my RVX soon which promises even better low end performance. My RV4 when new came in at 925lbs/419 kilos with a 150HP 0-320, FP wood prop and no paint. Later after Paint and with a Catto prop it still weighed under 950#/425 kilos and still flies great. Under 1000# is a realistic goal and it can be done, trust me. How? Skytech starter and how about a B&C SD8 alternator on your vacuum pump pad instead? 3 lbs vs 10+! MGL Extreme EFIS does it all and only draws .43 amps and weigh's 400 grams. Interior? One coat of paint, firewall insulation and you're done. Magnesium flywheel? Saves 2 kilos. Radios? How about a handheld (with ILS) from Sporty's? Very light and portable when you need to. Battery? Odessey PC-625 or a Panasonic 3B2.
Other Props? Honorable mention is the lesser known MT fixed pitch prop, a great product as well. Gary Hertzler's ([email protected]) fixed pitch 2 blade composite "Silver Bullet" outperforms anything I have ever tried but they are 0-320 only. Performance wood propellers are also a great product and a bit less expensive for budget minded RV's. For my money though, Craig's props are the bomb...:)

You have chosen, wisely.

V/R
Smokey
 
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Thank-you, Smokey.

Actually, in addition to the Catto, I would like to install the following, to save weight (dued to IO-360, Raven/Christen and 0.020'' tail surfaces):
- SD-20;
- Aerovoltz 16 battery (-9 Kg. versus Concorde and -5 versus Odyssey);
- Skyview, 695, GNC225, GTX328 + backup UMA ASI and G-meter (that's all for the panel).

No rear stick nor pedals. Minimal interior clothing/leather.

Good info for the flywheel!

May I ask if someone knows what Van's intend on his website for an RV-4 with an empty weight of 910 lbs.? Wood propeller and 150-160 engine. And then? Which battery (Concorde or Odyssey)? Paint or no paint? Interior or no interior? Panel? It seems to me that with all efforts, is pretty impossibile to match his numbers, even with a wood/320 combo.

Thanks.
Camillo
 
Weight it out...

Camillo said:
Thank-you, Smokey.

May I ask if someone knows what Van's intend on his website for an RV-4 with an empty weight of 910 lbs.? Wood propeller and 150-160 engine. And then? Which battery (Concorde or Odyssey)? Paint or no paint? Interior or no interior? Panel? It seems to me that with all efforts, is pretty impossible to match his numbers, even with a wood/320 combo.

Thanks.
Camillo
Click to expand...

Camillio,
I asked Van that exact question at a fly-in many years ago. It seems the builders manual numbers are based on the original prototype before paint or anything beyond basic instruments. They used thinner metal in the aft fuselage on it and of course the rudder and elevator and it had no lights, minimum wiring and a motorcycle battery. Even the canopy plexiglass was thinner. They even weighed it without oil in the engine, something most people don't bother with. The first production RV4 was heavier.

Even so, many builders back in the late 80's when I built my 4 were able to achieve flying RV4's under 920 lbs (410 kilos). One builder used an 0-290D no paint and very minimal automobile instruments and another went with no electrical system, starter or battery. I felt pretty happy when my RV4 weighed in at 925 lbs (419 kilos) before the FAA inspection. It doesn't weigh that now but at just under 950lbs it's still light, and delightful to fly. Questions? Email me anytime![email protected]

I interviewed Van several years ago, interesting comments!
http://vimeo.com/14925548


V/R
Smokey

PS: Here is the link to the lightweight flywheel
http://www.skydynamics.com/sdflywheel.htm
 
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SD-20 Installation

Hi Camillo

Be aware that if you decide to install a B&C SD-20 Alternator in your RV-4 you will require a special spacer ( 1.6 '' ) for the oil filter adapter ( If using one ) and a 3/4 '' spacer for the alternator.

You will also require a longer shear coupling ..

This will give you a 1/4'' clearance of the filter to the engine mount.Something to monitor if your engine sagged a little.

If you don't use an oil filter ( using a screen instead ) then you shouldn't require any spacer.

I just install one in my RV-4 and B&C are waiting to get the final results from my installation and they will be making a batch of these spacer for potential RV-4 owner who wanna do the same thing.

Good luck

Bruno
[email protected]
:)
 
Thank-you, Bruno.

I am reconsidering the SD-20 installation.
It needs a LR3C regulator, which adds weight and cost.
Total SD-20 and LR3C weight is Kg. 2,86 for $923.

Plane Power AL12 EI60 (which Van's sells) weights Kg. 3,14 for $439,00.

Weight saving is only Kg. 0,28 (0,62 lbs.) and it costs $484 more (which are $1728/Kg.).

Better save weight elsewhere. A Lightweight magnesium flywheel will save Kg. 1,3 for less than $500.

So, I think I will go with Plane Power.
 
Give an inch....

RV-4 said:
Hi Camillo

Be aware that if you decide to install a B&C SD-20 Alternator in your RV-4 you will require a special spacer ( 1.6 '' ) for the oil filter adapter ( If using one ) and a 3/4 '' spacer for the alternator.

You will also require a longer shear coupling ..

This will give you a 1/4'' clearance of the filter to the engine mount.Something to monitor if your engine sagged a little.

If you don't use an oil filter ( using a screen instead ) then you shouldn't require any spacer.

I just install one in my RV-4 and B&C are waiting to get the final results from my installation and they will be making a batch of these spacer for potential RV-4 owner who wanna do the same thing.

Good luck

Bruno
[email protected]
:)
Click to expand...

Interesting input, on my RV4 I used a stock Lycoming oil filter adapter for the 0-320/0-360, and a standard 0-320 vacuum pump (1" base)gear drive for the SD8. Both have been working well for many years. I duplicated the installation in my RVX with equal results. 0-320/360 accessory case gears are identical, the 540 however is different as is the gear drive shaft. B&C sells both if you ask.
The SD8 and regulator combined weight is 4.3 lbs and produces better than 8 amps. Total draw on my RVX is 4.9 amps. It's a great setup for sport flying and aerobatics. My backup power on long trips is a portable solar cell...

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2013Individual/Cat13314.pdf
V/R
Smokey
 
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Smokey, I am reconsidering the SD-8 installation.
However, I am very short of power, since I will need (item/current drawn per continuous duty [intermittent load may be higher]):
- battery contactor: 0,7 amp;
- SD-8 alternator field: ??;
- 1 P-mag (0,3);
- SV 700 (3,5) with - possibily - a backup battery (5);
- Garmin SL40 (0,29);
- Dynon XPNDR-26X (0,15);
- Garmin 296 (0,38);
- trim pitch (0,15).

Total current: 5,47 (6,97 with backup battery charging).

Not counting A/C battery recharging current.

Not to count (intermittent current):
- starter (1);
- SV32 (0,8/1,33);
- SV42 (1,1/2,03);
- high pressure fuel pump (5,9);
- flaps motor (3).

That are: 11,8 (up to 13,26) more.

Do you think with an SD-8 I may be able to run all, wisely?

SD-8 total weight seems 3.3 and not 4.3 lbs. That is better, of course.
From wiring diagram, it is necessary a 2amp CB. That is, I believe, for alternator field. But I remember from Bob's aeroelectric reading that the generators do not require power to operate. Is this true? If not, how many decimal of amperes will be necessary?

Thanks.
Camillo
 
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