G

GSchuld

Well Known Member
I would like to find as much info as possible pertaining to the use of a private turf airstrip. I recently purchased a property in Vermont that has a fully legal 1900ft turf airstrip. The airstrip is approved to have up to three privately owned planes operated from there, any of which may be owned and flown by NON owners of the property. An obvious concern for me is liability. I will not be living on the property, but the there is a home there to visit. If I were to have someone local base their plane there and use the strip, I would want to protect myself as much as I reasonably can.

I would assume that putting the airstrip part of the property in an LLC or similar structure would be a good start.

Does anyone have any suggestion about insurance carriers or types of coverage?

I would assume that people who base their planes out of other peoples private airstrip sign some sort of hold harmless type of paperwork in an attempt to reduce their lawsuit potential. If so, does it actually offer much protection? Lawsuits seem to blow right through such agreements when serious personal injury (or worse) is involved.

I do not at all consider myself to be a live in fear type of guy, but I take such risk assessment seriously. Any information or personal experience would be greatly appreciated.

George
 
An easy item...

GSchuld said:
.....
I would assume that people who base their planes out of other peoples private airstrip sign some sort of hold harmless type of paperwork in an attempt to reduce their lawsuit potential. If so, does it actually offer much protection? Lawsuits seem to blow right through such agreements when serious personal injury (or worse) is involved.
....

George
Click to expand...


...is to require liability insurance (you name the amount) and for the airstrip to be named as an "additional insured".

Having recently sat through 9 hours of mediation meetings for our airpark being sued over a fatal accident, my impression of the US legal system and lawyers has sunk even lower than I could have thought.....:rolleyes:

Our airpark was sued because our runway was too narrow - the fact the plane seemed to have no airwrthiness documentation, was still in Phase I testing with a passenger (his widow was the party sueing) and the pilots last words on the radio were "watch this"... all had no effect.

Money was based on "cost of defense" and what a grieving widow would sound like on the stand, not truth and/or justice - actual facts and details just got in the way of the discussions.

Do not rely on any EAA insurance if you have a chapter fly-in event.

Perhaps Shakespeare had it right....
 
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az_gila

Sad to hear:(. That's about the sobering story that I was expecting. Any idea how much of the "payoff" the airpark's or EAA's insurance will cover? Or will they likely cover everything and then "adjust" their standing with the airpark for the future?

So the guy was in phase I testing with no airworthiness cert. How is that possible exactly? Isn't an airworthiness cert required to even qualify for official phase I testing? And he was taking a passenger:eek: at the time! Wow!

My airstrip is fairly narrow, has a slight bend in it mid length, and is a bit lower in the middle than in the ends! It is what I would consider a fairly challenging airstrip for an other than STOL prepped aircraft. This of course, only increases my concern. I know of a homeowners association owned 30 home airpark that will only allow aircraft to land that are approved by the association "board". This includes owners in the airpark. If an owner buys a plane, they must present all the documentation to the board for approval. Absolutely no phase I testing allowed there. If an owner wants to invite someone to visit, they must ask for the approval of the board in writing. The visitor "application" requires full information on the pilot, the plane, and proof of certain levels of insurance. I understand that quite a few potential visitors were turned away. It sounds fairly nuts on the surface, but in reality, it might not be so rediculous after all. They sight liability as their main concern.

I'm not a big fan of the legal system either. I try to stay as far away as I can from them;). I'd like to be able to feel comfortable allowing visitors to fly in, but being that I will be living 300 miles away from the property, among other things, I'm reluctant to have anyone use it:(.

George
 
More...

GSchuld said:
az_gila

Sad to hear:(. That's about the sobering story that I was expecting. Any idea how much of the "payoff" the airpark's or EAA's insurance will cover? Or will they likely cover everything and then "adjust" their standing with the airpark for the future?

So the guy was in phase I testing with no airworthiness cert. How is that possible exactly? Isn't an airworthiness cert required to even qualify for official phase I testing? And he was taking a passenger:eek: at the time! Wow!

.......

George
Click to expand...

Our insurance company did pay out, but the details are not public info...

The EAA insurance company refused to get involved, and the local chapter contact was killed in an RV accident in the interim period. They would not even talk to me because I was not a lawyer...:rolleyes:

Details of the planes certification are in the NTSB report that is linked by Tony S. above.

According to the FAA records, there was no experimental airworthiness certificate on file as being issued on the aircraft. Without the airworthiness certificate, the FAA could not confirm whether or not operating limitations had been issued for the airplane.

I would also hope there is one less DAR out there....

The DAR indicated that he had provided the pilot a set of operating limitations, which required that the aircraft undergo 40 hours of flight testing before passengers could be carried on board. The FAA inspector assisting in the investigation requested a copy of the operating limitations issued for the accident airplane, but did not receive a copy.

In my mind, the worse part is that Walter Engines US was involved because "they did not tell builders that the engine was too big for the plane". They had never seen or touched the engine, which was first sold to a communist govt. and then privately surplused to the US, and the corporate Walter engines had changed from a communist govt. enterprise to a commercial company in the decades since the engine was made.

The kit plane designer - who put in the bigger engine - was not involved because "he had no assets"....

Our reason for us being sued - the too narrow runway - was based on us not meeting Federal runway width standards because we took govt. money. We never took any govt. money (we are private and not eligible), but try proving a negative. In spite of a lot of effort, I never did get the FAA to officially tell us we never received money - mainly because of the 30 year time frame being asked for. After discovery took copies of every Airpark document over the last 30 years, it suddenly changed to "we were too cheap to go for a wider runway" when we repaved the runway in 2002. However, a close review of the discussions would have shown that the the debate over wide vs. narrow was over the original 36 ft width vs. a proposed wider 44 ft width. The "wide" folks won the debate and we now have a 45 ft. runway. The federal standard of 60 ft. was never considered.

As I said before, actual facts and details just got in the way of the discussions....:rolleyes:
 
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It's an unfortunate situation for sure, and I imagine things like that happen all the time. I imagine that for a private airstrip renting a bunch of hanger space and gathering other income or for live in airparks, it is easier to accept the risks. As a one man band that would be limited to 3 based aircraft, sadly I am concerned that it simply would not be worth the risk to let others use the strip. Even if I wasn't to allow others to base a plane or two there, it would be great to allow fellow flyers to stop in. From reading the above report, your runway makes my little strip look like Andrews air force base.

George
 
Jeff,

I agree, the author did a fantactic job explaining the situation:D. Thanks. I imagine that if my runway was in a huge open field, dead striaght, flat, smooth, and 3500ft long and not adjacent to a fairly steep hillside, I would be MUCH more open to allowing people to use it. Unfortunately this is not the case. The surrounding trees are far too close to the runway in parts to meet the slope requirements to meet federal standards, I checked. I can think of several reasons why I would get the book thrown at me if someone had an accident. The Vermont Aeronautics reps mentioned this as well. As I have 0 financial gain to expect, unnecessarily exposing myself to painful litigation is starting to sound very unappealing. I have read about a number of private airstrip accidents, and it seems that every time there is a lawsuit, the plaintiff always seems to win, regardless of the actual fairness and responsibility of the situation. Sadly, I think it would be best to agree with my partner and let this one go. After researching the relative ease of getting a new private airstrip approved in VT, I personally would rather locate a more suitable piece of land (I have a piece in mind) that would more comfortably handle what I would wish to fly as well. The current one is admittedly a bit of a stretch. Luckily, the fact that it has a legal turf airstrip had little effect on our interest in the property (its value is more in the fact that it has 2900ft of frontage on the Williams river and the soils are factastic, rare up here). Anyone interested in a choice of 60k to 90k 3-4 acre beautiful riverfront lots in Verment, 20 minutes from the Okemo ski resort:D?

George
 
az_gila said:
Do not rely on any EAA insurance if you have a chapter fly-in event.
Click to expand...

Gil,

Are you saying that the host EAA chapter had filled out the required EAA paperwork for a breakfast fly-in event, then EAA provided no assistance with the suit? If yes, what was their reasoning? Our chapter has two lunch fly-ins a year, and I'm sure the airport owners assume that the EAA insurance covers anything that might result in their being sued.

Tony
 
Insurance for airstrips

I got a quote for my airstrip about a year ago (pre-meltdown) from AIG and it was about $ 1400. I don't remember the limits but I think 500,000.

Ken
 
I'm curious, what is your airstrip like.

runway size, obstructions, paved, turf, how many planes, type of use?

Any help is good

George
 
We think the Chapter....

Tony Spicer said:
Gil,

Are you saying that the host EAA chapter had filled out the required EAA paperwork for a breakfast fly-in event, then EAA provided no assistance with the suit? If yes, what was their reasoning? Our chapter has two lunch fly-ins a year, and I'm sure the airport owners assume that the EAA insurance covers anything that might result in their being sued.

Tony
Click to expand...

...filed out the paper work, but as I said, the person who knew was killed in an RV accident after the event, and before the law suit.

Assumptions were made by the airport ("yes, we are insured, it's an EAA Chapter event"), but the insurance bit was never confirmed.

The EAA did not involve themselves. The suit was against the width of the runway - I'm not sure of the extant of any coverage - does the EAA cover the airport owner, or just the chapter. The lawsuit was filed after the EAA court loss in WA.

The EAA insurance folks would not even talk to me, and would not even tell me if the paper work was completed for the event...:mad:

Do not rely on any EAA coverage if you are an airport owner...
 
Don't want to bash EAA, but...

Read your chapter insurance policy closely... It really doesn't cover anything. I believe the chapter is pitching in on an insurance policy to cover EAA... Not your chapter. The standard EAA chapter policy has so many exceptions, that it basically doesn't cover the chapter, the organizers, the pilots, the airport, or anybody in between.

Dave
 
Airstrip

George,

My airstrip is registered 38LS. I have it listed as 3,000 feet but I actually have 3,700 but with power lines (with markers) and trees and power lines on other end. When the state (Louisiana) inspected it, they gave me a displaced threshold of 530 feet and 1,130 feet. Turf.

I have a 42 x 46 hanger which is insured for property and the aircraft are also insured.

The airstrip is listed as private, permission required. The quote was for just the airstrip operations. I have a Piper J-3 Cub and had a Grumman AA5 Traveler. Building an RV-6.

Ken
 
Ken,

Thanks for the info. I take it the airstrip is basically for your personal use only. Is it fair to assume that you live on this airstrip property? Do you allow others to fly in and if so do you have any "standards" as to who you will allow to land there?

I am not at all shocked to know that you have the airstrip in an LLC. I have my rental properties in LLCs, my tennants are scary enough:rolleyes:

PS I like your toys:D

George
 
This thread was brought to my attention by an EAA member, and I would like to take the opportunity to offer some input. However, I would like to ask for your patience as I need to gather some info from our EAA risk manager who is currently in London negotiating EAA?s coverage for next year. Once she returns I will be able to put together a summary of what our EAA Chapter insurance covers. I will post this info on this forum by the end of next week. We will also publish this info in our ChapterGram newsletter so that all chapters will be aware of this info.

I am certainly dismayed to see the comment that ?EAA would not talk to me?. That is definitely not our standard of service. It is our policy that any member who calls with a question will receive a response from the appropriate person here at EAA. I will contact Gil directly and make sure he gets answers to his questions.

Thanks!

Joe Norris
EAA Homebuilders Community Manager
 
OK, as promised I talked to our risk management people here at EAA HQ and they provided the following info, in FAQ format:

What does the EAA Chapter Insurance program cover?
The EAA Chapter General Liability Insurance Program protects Chapters, their members, officers, directors, and volunteers from alleged negligence. Participation in this insurance program is mandatory for all United States and Canadian Chapters. A chapter can select a policy limit of $1,000,000, $2,000,000 or $3,000,000. The insurance policy provides comprehensive general liability coverage seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and extends liability coverage to Chapters that own or lease a clubhouse, hangar, or both. This insurance policy includes, without any additional premium, coverage for Class 1 events which include Chapter sponsored pancake breakfasts, fly-ins and fly-outs, Young Eagle Rallies, picnics, lunches, aviation meetings, swap meets, airport awareness day, static displays, picnics, RC demonstrations, poker runs, or museum tour to name only a few.

Does the insurance cover the chapter or just EAA?
The EAA Chapter Insurance program covers the individual EAA chapter, their members, officers, directors, volunteers and EAA from alleged negligence.

If an airport has no insurance, will the EAA Chapter Liability Insurance Program cover the airport?
An airport needs to carry airport liability insurance. The EAA chapter insurance program does not substitute for airport insurance. The chapter insurance program only covers activities for which the chapter has assumed responsibility. A few examples of what airport owners are solely responsible for include runway length and obstructions, fueling, aircraft maintenance, building and grounds maintenance.

Can an airport be an ?additional insured? on a Chapter?s insurance policy for a Chapter sponsored event?
Yes, as long as that request is made on the Chapter Event Notice Form. This will provide insurance and defense to the airport for any claims that arise out of the activities the Chapter is conducting/responsible for. This will not replace the need for the airport to also have their own insurance to cover their airport operations.

For example, if chapter members are parking airplanes and a pilot is directed to taxi over a trench and the aircraft is damaged, the Chapter and the additionally insured airport would be provided coverage because the chapter was responsible for marshalling aircraft.
However, if an aircraft buys fuel from the airport during the event, and the line boy misfuels the aircraft with the wrong fuel and an accident results, the airport would need their own airport operations insurance to protect them for this loss. The additional insured status they were given under the Chapter policy would not apply because the Chapter had no role or operational function with fueling.

What should a Chapter do if an accident occurs at an EAA Chapter sponsored fly-in?
Report the incident to the EAA Risk Management Department as soon as possible with the following information:
? Note the date, time, and location of the accident or occurrence. Draw a diagram if applicable.
? Obtain names, addresses, and telephone contact numbers for all injured or damaged persons.
? Attempt to obtain names, addresses, and telephone contact numbers for all witnesses to the accident or occurrence.
? Make sure immediate first aid and qualified medical personnel are notified of any injury. Protect damaged property from any further damage.
? Have someone take immediate photographs of the accident scene if possible.
? Do not discuss the facts leading up to the occurrence or the facts of the occurrence with the news media at any time.
? Report incident to local FAA office or other government authority if applicable.


Anyone who has any specific questions should call Karen Kryzaniak at 920-426-4822.

I hope this helps!

Joe
 
I did carefully review the EAA Chapters Coverage Summary that HQ sent to our chapter at our request. [Dave B and I are in the same chapter]. So far as I could see the "exclusions" pretty well gutted the coverage, at least for local chapters. I phoned EAA HQ and spoke with Tammy Thomas, Insurance/ Safety Administrator. She was not able to show me that my reading was incorrect.

I would not blindly assume that the EAA Chapter General Liability Insurance Program gives the protection you might want.

Perhaps Joe or someone directly involved with the insurance program at EAA HQ can respond.
Thank you.
 
This bit....

...is important if you allow an EAA event at a private airport.

....The chapter insurance program only covers activities for which the chapter has assumed responsibility. A few examples of what airport owners are solely responsible for include runway length and obstructions, fueling, aircraft maintenance, building and grounds maintenance.

Can an airport be an ?additional insured? on a Chapter?s insurance policy for a Chapter sponsored event?
Yes, as long as that request is made on the Chapter Event Notice Form. This will provide insurance and defense to the airport for any claims that arise out of the activities the Chapter is conducting/responsible for. This will not replace the need for the airport to also have their own insurance to cover their airport operations.

For example, if chapter members are parking airplanes and a pilot is directed to taxi over a trench and the aircraft is damaged, the Chapter and the additionally insured airport would be provided coverage because the chapter was responsible for marshalling aircraft.
However, if an aircraft buys fuel from the airport during the event, and the line boy misfuels the aircraft with the wrong fuel and an accident results, the airport would need their own airport operations insurance to protect them for this loss. The additional insured status they were given under the Chapter policy would not apply because the Chapter had no role or operational function with fueling.

The airport is accepting quite an increased liability for fly-in visitors/breakfast eaters with little or no control over them having read any operating rules or local restrictions.

If your airstrip is PPR (Prior Permisssion required) then you have some control over who comes in... This is almost impossible to do for a pancake breakfast though.

How many pilots read the official 5010 Airport Master Record before going to a pancake breakfast?

http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/airport.cfm?Site=57AZ

...or even check the unofficial version on Airnav?

Remember, we were sued over having a runway that was "too narrow".

If you (or your homeowner's association) have an airstrip, I believe it is in your interest (legally and financially) to make a good effort to control who uses the airstrip, and have a (Pvt) label on the sectional. We require all users to have their own liability policies - and, in doing so, it has amazed me to find out how many aircraft owners have no liability insurance, and more that don't even read a sectional - as in "I didn't know it was Private"....:rolleyes:

I don't see our airpark hosting any more EAA events in the forseeable future.
 
Attn Dave Bone- EAA insurance

DBone said:
Read your chapter insurance policy closely... It really doesn't cover anything. I believe the chapter is pitching in on an insurance policy to cover EAA... Not your chapter. The standard EAA chapter policy has so many exceptions, that it basically doesn't cover the chapter, the organizers, the pilots, the airport, or anybody in between.

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,

How were you able to get a copy of a chapter policy from EAA? I've tried without success. I was told that chapter details are but a small part of a large master policy, a document way too large to be sending to each chapter.

How about a couple of specific details to back up your comments above?

thanks,

Tony
 
Tony - I don't want to post specific language for public viewing for fear that it could be taken out of context by ill-intended people. If you are an EAA member, you should have access to the same info I do. They would not send us the FULL policy either. They sent us a chapter coverage summary.

The document is titled "EAA Chapters Coverage Summary" and is for period 12/1/07 to 12/1/08. It is a 13 page document that summarizes the chapter coverages.

Have one of your chapter officers email Tammy (she may not be the only one, but she is the only one I've ever communicated with) at EAA national. She is the one that sent me the document.

Hope that helps!

Thanks,
 
after you get the document

Let me know when you've received the document. I'd love to hear your opinion of it.

Thanks!
 
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