Welcome to VAF, Take a Pro Active Approach to maintence
Blaine Asay said:
I've searched the archives and been unable to find this topic addressed. I have heard recently that many A&P's and FBOs no longer work on experimental aircraft because of insurance limitations. I was told that if they sign off on an annual, they are not covered. Is this a major issue to take into consideration when deciding whether or not to buy a used RV? It seems that if there is a chance that you won't be able to find anyone to sign off on the annual, then building is the only way to go if one wants to get into the market.
Blaine I see you are on the wannabe fence. I assume you are considering purchasing a flying RV, but also considering a RV-10 project down the road in the future.
I think you overstate the concern of getting a condition inspection on a experimental kit plane. FBO's and insurance aside you can get an condition inspection. There are also independent A&P's that travel around. They key however is really doing all the maintence and repairs yourself, which you can, even if you did not build it. Even if the FBO will not do it, you might get one of the A&P's to do it on the side. I find many A&P's don't know much about experimentals and the FAR's involved.
"Condition Inspection v. Annuals"
First just for education, experimentals do not have "Annuals", only "Condition Inspections". It seems like semantics since both are due every 12 months. However an AI (airframe inspector) is needed to sign off an annual (on a certified plane). Any A&P can sign off a "condition inspection". During an "annual" the AI must check compliance and AD's, SB, SI and so on. Experimental are different, there is no "compliance", its experimental.
YOU can legally do all maintenance work on a second hand RV, even if you did not build it. THIS IS A BIG DEAL AND WILL SAVE YOU $1000's OVER A CERTIFIED PLANE. However this takes effort and commitment, but it will be worth it, not only for monetary reasons but better control of the quality of work done to your plane. NO ONE will take as good of care of your plane as you. Also the satisfaction of maintaining your plane is part the fun for me and many builders.
Frankly I would not want most FBO's to work on my RV. The gist of my suggestion, learn to do as much work your self as possible. A "condition inspection" is not maintenance. You can't do the "CI" sign off, but you can do the work. I'm sure there are RV'ers in your area to help you. The idea is when you get your RV's "Condition Inspection", it will be just that, an inspection not repair and maintenance. You may find a A&P to pencil whip the log book but that is foolish and unsafe.
The big difference is an annual for a certified plane, a simple fixed gear model is say $800-$1200 (guessing) if nothing is worn or broken. A condition inspection should only be a hand-full of "inspection" hours, which should be a few hundred bucks(?). However if the A&P says fix or replace XYZ you have to make them happy and do it. There is no guarantee of a sign off, they can refuse. It's like a check ride, it has to be right.
Get involved with the process, simply because you can. Plan on assisting a "CI" by removing all inspection panels, fairing and so on at least. However before that you (or a friend) should have all the routine maintenance and any repairs completed. You can also maintain/repair systems, metal structure and fiberglass. Unlike a certified plane where you are restricted in what you can do, there is vurtually no limit on what you can do on an experimental, wheather you built it or not. The difference is the CI sign off is done only by the A&P/AI or the repairman (who built it).
Try to find a local RV who has some flying time maintaining their bird. I found after I finished my first RV, I had obtained a lot new skills, but maintenance and repair was a whole new learning experience after that. I had owned a few old factory planes before, so I had some maintenance knowledge & experience. RV's have their weak points, areas that need more maintenance. Not sure how "seasoned" your theoretical "RV" is, but the first 100-500 hours shakes out the unique weak areas for that plane. All RV's are custom and unique.
You can also modify your second hand RV. However if its consider a major modification you (MAY) need to ask the local FSDO for permission to fly it. I'm just letting you know you can change, modify and make major repairs on a second hand RV, even if you did not build it. What is a major mod or repair? It's subject to debate. Some believe a Prop change is a major change, others do not. A fuel system change, new type of select valve or pump, could be considered major. Just call the FSDO to make sure. They may want a fax with a sketche of the change. If its major they may make you fly off a test period called phase I. It will specify where you can fly and how long the test period is. No passengers can be carried during this period. When the "CI" comes around the A&P must approve your mod/repair work.
Seriously no one should work on a experimental with out a clue. I agree that if you can't build one, owning one may not be a good idea, unless you have some one who does have the skill and ability to work on it for you or you learn (with a mentor). I'm not saying RV's are more maintence but they are sports cars and need attention. Like any thing, if you let things go it will cost you more in the long run.
You can't sign off the Condition Inspection (CI) as a 2nd hand owner of course, but you can inspect and repair as needed before the a "CI". When ever you have the cowl off don't be in a hurry to put it back on. Get a powerful flashlight and slowly look over every inch. Look for cracks, loose parts, exhaust & fluid leaks, rubbing of wires and hoses and so on. It takes some discipline but when you know what to look for it gets easier. Get other pilots to look it over as well. More eyes the better. The idea is not to just get a CI sign off every 12 months but to BE SAFE. A lot of certified planes come out of "annual" and have major problems, many times because they messed up stuff that was not broke in the first place. I am not impressed with some A&P work I have seen. (Some A&P's are pros and very conscientious.) Just getting the sign off (cond insp) is really not as important as maintaining the plane.
I can't stress enough, you don't need a A&P or AI licence to work, fix, repair, maintain and modify your 2nd hand RV. However the caveat is KNOW THY SELF. If you are not comfortable (have the skill, tools or experience) than get help.
I shudder
to think what kind of rip off a FBO would charge if you just dropped a RV off Monday morning and picked it up on Thursday. First you'll get a big bill, because that is what they do. Second the plane may have a "Condition Inspection" sign off but may not be in better CONDITON! If you tear the plane down and do all the maintenance, the actual condition inspection should take an A&P 3-5 hours? Than you put it back together. If you let maintence go all year, than the CI may be a nightmare. The FBO's liability and insurance issue is their problem. There are places and people that know RV's and will do the CI. There are A&P's that will make hanger calls. One wrinkle is some airports don't allow independent A&P's to come on field to do work, supposedly for liability reasons or to protect their home field businesses and FBO's (but what they don't know can't hurt them).
Join the EAA and local chapter.
Bottom line you don't have the build to be able to maintain your RV. However if you buy a used RV and personally maintain it, you'll have gained skills, tools and abilities, similar to what you'd have gained building. If you have the desire to buy a used RV, getting a "CI" is not a big deal. However building and getting the repairman cert is best, but not everyone has the time or patients to build.
