V

Vmax

Member
I'm ready to start the finishing kit on my RV-7 project and still undecided on avionics/instrument panels. The more research I do the more overwhelmed and undecided I get. Rather then reinvent the wheel, any inputs regarding panel layout from the pilots already flying would be helpful and appreciated.

For a starting point, cost is important. Flying will be mainly day/VFR with very occasional light IFR. Although a ATP rated pilot, hard IFR is not my first choice when not at work. Grand Rapids line is my first choice for an EFIS, GPS brand is undecided, autopilot and transponder are just about necessities.

Electronics is not my strongest suit. Other options to make life easier are Vertical Power or CBs? Combo Single pole/CB's or conventional CB? Van's wiring kit helpful?

Bottom line I am looking for a simple, clean but functional panel with minimal frills. There has to be someone out there with similar requirements.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Vmax
 
Give Stein a call

Vmax,

I recommend that you talk to the people at Steinair, everyone there was very helpful. I never felt like I was getting pressured to buy more than I was asking for. Just tell them your mission and they will give you your options. After checking around I found their pricing to be competitive and their support is excellent. They seem to care that we are happy with the finished product and not just trying to make a sale.

You may have already looked at the panels page on their web site but I found it helpful when I was planning mine.
http://www.steinair.com/panels.htm

Good luck!
 
What ever you do...wait as long as you can to make a decision.
Finish as much of the finish kit (even the entire airplane) as you possibly can before you commit to purchasing panel equipment. The basic finish kit work takes many people a year or more. The avionics market changes a lot in that amount of time.
 
Vmax, I made my panel IFR and it was a nightmare.

SkyView as EFIS (HSI/RMI) and engine monitor, A/S, ADI TruTrak, Altimeter, VSI, ADF, DME, Audio panel, GNS430W, SL40, GTX328, magnetic compass (as a backup), map lights, panel LED lights, all avionic lights dimmed, +12V aux. power, static and alternate static, MAP and RPM backuped analogic. A breaker for each unit. Bob Nuckoll's Z11 scheme with e-bus and battery bus.

All the 4 holes along the spar are full. I had to pass pitot and ADF coaxial through the seat floor. Static passes up, on the left. VOR and COM1 up, on the right.

Should I do it again, I doubt I will make the same choice. Maybe a SkyView 10'', altimeter and ADI. SL30 and GTX328.
 
Hi Vmax....

..."Occasional light IFR"?? You talk like a working pilot, as I am but don't think in terms of 'light' IFR rather...IFR. I think some guys think of light as a thin layer at 4000' that's a simple transition, compared to shooting an ILS to 200' minimums that's 'hard' IFR.

If the former is what you're referring to, go with TruTrak's new Gemini as a single backup to your GRT and add a 430W for all your approach/enroute needs,

Best,
 
Don't jump to Quick

I concur with Scott. If you are just now ordering your finish kit I would hold off making really hard decisions about avionics for a while. You said your first choice for EFIS is Grand Rapids. In my opinion the best light IFR choice is a duel screen GRT sport SX setup. You will love the GRT GPS moving map on your second display and it is very cost effective. Plus you get a complete backup system with both PFD, Moving Map GPS, and Engine monitor on both screens, with WX weather also available.

I upgraded to the 8.4" screens and love them. GRT will have 10" screens by next year. You might also ask GRT if their new autopilot servos work with the sport SX. I know that work with the Horizon. If the GRT autopilot servos work with the sport as well that is another cost effective solution for mostly VFR flying.

Don't forget to add the GRT Engine monitor as well.

Add a SL-30 and you have the ILS available when you have to do an approach. I find that with the GRT EFIS system and an SL-30 an ILS approach is a piece of cake.

On of the things I really like about the GRT big screens is that you can pull a screen out of the panel very quickly and get a really big access hole to the subpanel and wiring.
 
Mate, I am with Camillo, I am building my 7 with my son, who I love dearly, however, he is what we call here in Oz a 5 CAT engineer. He works on airliners, and we have more cr@p in our aeroplane than you can poke a stick at. In fact, we probably have more capability in our aircraft than a 747. An RV7 is a light, sport, aerobatic aeroplane in which, to have fun.
MATE, dont leave until the last minute to decide what you want to put in your aircraft in the way of avionics. Decide what you want early in the piece, believe me, it is one of the more time consuming things to do, fitting the avionics.
Think about looking out the window to see where you are going.
If I was building my aeroplane on my own, there is no way I would have even half the stuff we have on board.
Figger out what you need and put only that in your panel.

as you guys say, my 02 cents worth:)
 
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I have similiar requirements. I determined that I wanted RNAV (VFR and IFR).

I equipped with the following:

Dynon 180 with HS34
True Trak autopilot with attitude indicator and altitude hold.
Garmin 420W (comm and nav). Utilizes WAAS as primary nav, no VOR required.
Garmin 196 as backup nav
Garmin 327 transponder
PS 3000 intercom
 
My three (inflation, you know) cents worth. My requirements are similar to yours, but I do have a penchant for adding price and complexity to each project for capabilities I never use! Building a panel isn't really electronics, it's wiring with important installation considerations. Get Bob Nuckoll's Aeroelectric Handbook for a primer.

Stein will do a nice job for you. But wiring isn't hard, it's tedious. Take it one at a time. Besides, much of the difficulty is tubes and wires from the panel to somewhere on the airframe, and you have to do that no matter who make/wires the panel.

Unless you want VNAV, the SL-30 is an excellent choice. VNAV? Add ~$4,000 for a 430W. Dynon gives you most bang for the buck, especially with their autopilot and HSI capability. I recommend the D100 and a separate engine monitor/gauges system. Personally, I like an engine monitor like UBG-16 or EDM700 plus steam for functions these don't easily cover, which also happens to be least expensive complete instrumentation. D120s, EDM740s, and their ilk are pricier. Stay away from the Skyview - immature and more expensive - and just look outside.

No matter what sort of displays and gauges you use, all still require the same wires and sensors, the same wire count if you will, so your costs are best controlled by keeping the fancy integrated stuff to a minimum. Forget Vertical Power, it's a waste of money. CBs or breakers, flip a coin. GPS: I flew a 696 for awhile, and found it hard to use, besides being expensive. Dirt cheap but still effective (and a bigger screen than it's X96 siblings) the Garmin 196. Check out the Aera or AV8OR Ace for in between capabilities and price.

It's easy to spend someone else's money!

John Siebold
 
John, I am going to spend someone else's money here but I disagree on the SL30. With it you get comm, VOR/GS/DME. But the future is GPS navigation and approaches.

Correction to statement above: "SL30 packs a 760-channel VHF comm transceiver and 200-channel VOR/LOC/GS nav receiver with DME display into one small space."

It is not just GPS/WAAS vertically aided approaches. It is GPS non-precision type approaches at beaucoup airports without ILS.

A Garmin 430W or equivalent coupled with at least an autopilot for the horizontal component of flight (better two axis) is going to serve him far better in my opinion.
 
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Ron Lee said:
John, I am going to spend someone else's money here but I disagree on the SL30. With it you get comm, VOR/GS/DME.
Click to expand...

Really? An SL30 does DME? What rock have I been under :). I learn something every day.
 
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I would highly recommend using a Approach hub as a way of wiring your avionics. It makes things more like plug & play. With today avionics, one can not know what changes or additions we may want to make to our panel and hard wiring each components makes those changes a nightmare.

I have since building my panel, had added two new items (Zaon XRX and XM weather) and add them was a breeze, just plug them to the hub and configure the GRT for them. In a short while, I will be adding a GPS signal to my Artex ELT and that is also just as simple as connecting to the hub. The flexibility and reliability is unmatched and the cost is probably cheaper then to have some one build the panel, hardwired.
 
Under a Rock?

For DME, check out the DST Function on the SL30


Dave Pohl
RV7A N442DP
 
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My mistake, I should have copied it

"SL30 packs a 760-channel VHF comm transceiver and 200-channel VOR/LOC/GS nav receiver with DME display into one small space."

Point is that unless I am wrong again, it does not support GPS navigation/approaches.
 
Having researched this myself, I personally think a panel mounted 696 is about the cheapest way to add a lot of capability for IFR flying. For $3K you get charts, safe taxi, XM WX (and radio), a huge display, and in a serious pinch Garmin's GPS derived "6 pack" which from what I understand is MORE than capable for attitude control. I've used an Aera 560 in the F-18 and playing around with the instrument display on that I was really surprised how accurate it is, and how quick the refresh rate is. It amounts to flying partial panel as it dosen't have an attitude indicator, but in an emergency it would suffice. Plus if you have a catostrphic loss of power, the thing will run on it's own battery long after you've run out of gas.

Agree'd with everyone else on waiting. I'm amazed at the capability that has evolved just in the last 2-3 years. They Dynon Skyview system was Star Wars talk 10 years ago, 5 years ago it would've have been a $50K set up.
 
Question- Can you legally fly IFR with a Garmin 696? I'm trying to decide on my panel as well, I'm leaning towards the 430w because of it's IFR capabilities. However it's a lot of money. Are there a lot RV flyer out there flying IFR with a 496/696? As I plan my panel the price keeps growing.
 
I, like you, wanted simple/frugal VFR/IFR. So I chose - and am delighted with:
Instruments:
Airspeed
TruTraks ADI II 2-axis autopilot (also delivers AI, "VSI", DG & slip) in a 3 1/8" hole (battery backup if things go TU) - slaved to 430 below
- Only downside is that you have to control descent ... which is really easy in an RV
Altimeter
Garmin 106A CDI
Vans tach
Vans ManP
Vans Left & Right fuel guages
GrandRapids EIS (w/ fuelfllow, oat, amps, etc.) - nice red light when something needs attention
Heated Pitot (made my own)
Avionics:
PS 6000 audio Panel
Garmin 430 (GPS/NAV/COM) - I've got the legacy; but go w/ the 430W for vertical guidance - really a MUST HAVE
ICOM 720 com (so you can pickup atis/asos and stay connected to ATC)
Garmin 320a txpdr

Also have Garmin 396 for on-board weather and the six-pack instruments - so if everything goes TU, I can navigate/aviate to get down.

A handheld let's me communicate if everything goes TU.

I cut my own panel - not that tough.

Put the flight stuff on the left, the engine/fuel stuff on the right, the avionics in the middle and the switches lined up on the bottom. Consider using LED tipped switches for things you want to notice that you left on (landing lights, pitot heat, fuel pump, etc.)

DON'T forget to plan for the brace behind the panel - it seems to be right where you need space for the radios.

Advice:
Buy good crimpers (both for connectors and pins) and strippers (WIRE not the other kind)
Cut extra instrument holes (both 3 1/8 & 2 1/4 ") so you can easily add stuff later.
Have enough service loop wire to pull stuff out the front of the panel.
Plan for:
-Night flights
-Instrument lights/dimmer
-A couple always hot 12V outlets
-Location of headset jacks (out of the way inflight and during entry/exit
-Cockpit/foot well/baggage switched lighting
-E-buss (see bob nuckolls book at aeroelectric.com)
-Extra fuse bus slots and extra ground slots for expansion
Create a wiring/fuse diagram and keep it up-to-date; you'll refer to it a lot
Consider a radio speaker - incase the Hsets go TU
 
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Can you fly IFR with an X96? Sure you can......as long as that is not your sole means of navigation. Are they legal for approaches, sole navigation enroute, replacing DME, sole means of identifying fixes and navaids? No.....

Are there RV'ers out there using X96's illegally while IFR? Maybe, there are always some who like to break the rules but I doubt there are many that would unless they were in an emergency situation.

Sometimes people substitute VFR GPS's for legal IFR Enroute GPS's....This seems to happens often. ATC will even clear you direct most of the time if you put VFR GPS onboard in the comments section of IFR flight plans. Is this legal? Most likely not but people do it.

gordodavis said:
Question- Can you legally fly IFR with a Garmin 696? I'm trying to decide on my panel as well, I'm leaning towards the 430w because of it's IFR capabilities. However it's a lot of money. Are there a lot RV flyer out there flying IFR with a 496/696? As I plan my panel the price keeps growing.
Click to expand...
 
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The reason to get an IFR GPS (such as a Garmin 430W) is not only to be legal en route IFR but to get the thousands of approaches using GPS or GPS/WAAS.

Go to airnav.com and look at all the airports you may go to someday and see how many just have GPS approaches. Will your x96 give that to you?
 
Ron Lee said:
The reason to get an IFR GPS (such as a Garmin 430W) is not only to be legal en route IFR but to get the thousands of approaches using GPS or GPS/WAAS.

Go to airnav.com and look at all the airports you may go to someday and see how many just have GPS approaches. Will your x96 give that to you?
Click to expand...

Good point, something I didn't delve into. Not only can you not legally shoot a GPS appch with a hand held, you can't even find the lat/long nubmer for the fixes (at least I never have). Hand helds don't have the RAIM monitoring required for accuracy. My excitement at a panel mount 696 is really just the XM WX it brings. 3K for the entire unit, or 5K for the magic box to pump the info to your panel. Plus all the other things I mentioned.

But yeah, a 430W with how fast GPS appchs are popping up, and Cat 1 precision approaches evolving, that one box will get you everything you need to be legal. From there you can build your panel around it as wild or cheap as you want.
 
It all really gets back to, "what is LIGHT IFR?" Also, what is "inexpensive?"

If you are certain you will never want to fly a precision approach, either an SL30 (or Ranier's new alternatives to the SL30 plus VOGAD intercom) are all you need. You don't "need" synthetic vision, even though it is becoming somewhat standard. You probably do WANT terrain display, but you can get that on an iPad with geo-referenced charts for under $1,000 and $30/yr chart/software subscription.

If you are TRULY looking for the least cost to be fully IFR with enough redundancy to keep the pucker factor down, then you can have everything you "need" for under $15k. Here are 3 examples that would work:

Cheapest "solution"
Dynon - D-180 FlightDeck 3400
ADHARS 0
Battery Backup 150
Cables 100
Engine Probes 600
Fuel Flow 200
OAT 40
Heated AOA Pitot 450
Autopilot Servos 750
Backup EFIS-D10A 2200 (I think the D10A is still the price leader)
MGL Comm 1000
MGL Nav 1500
iPad w/ GPS 1000
Used 496 1000
Total $12,390

Dynon Skyview 7" 2700
ADHARS 1200
EMS Module 600
GPS Puck 200
Backup Battery 200
Cables 100
Engine Probes 600
Fuel Flow 200
OAT 40
Heated AOA Pitot 450
Autopilot Servos 750
Backup EFIS-D10A 2200 (I think the D10A is still the price leader)
MGL Comm 1000
MGL Nav 1500
iPad w/ GPS 1000
Used 496 1000
Total $13,740

MGL Voyager ("Typical" according to web site) 6100
Heated AOA Pitot 500 (? - do they offer one? Will Dynon's work?)
Autopilot Servos 750 (? - guessing price will be competitive)
Backup EFIS-D10A 2200 (I think the D10A is still the price leader)
MGL Comm 1000
MGL Nav 1500
iPad w/ GPS 1000
Used 496 1000
Total $13,950


GRT is a very good solution too, and would run only a little bit more based on past exercises in pricing - just wanted top illustrate some inexpensive options to achieve the objective. Bottom line is - the above solutions include everything you actually need to fly IFR in an experimental, and save around $10,000 by skipping the 430 yet still allow you to file IFR but primarily navigate "direct" whenever VMC using the GPS (an expectation of "LIGHT" IFR).
 
breister said:
It all really gets back to, "what is LIGHT IFR?" Also, what is "inexpensive?"

If you are certain you will never want to fly a precision approach, either an SL30 (or Ranier's new alternatives to the SL30 plus VOGAD intercom) are all you need. You don't "need" synthetic vision, even though it is becoming somewhat standard. You probably do WANT terrain display, but you can get that on an iPad with geo-referenced charts for under $1,000 and $30/yr chart/software subscription.
Click to expand...

After hearing of several guys losing their engine in the goo (or on top of it) and being able to make an emergency landing to a paved surface using the synthetic vision... I'm totally sold on it. Sure you can fly hard IFR with a six pack and a nav/comm with ILS... but the peace of mind that synthetic vision offers (in my mind) especially at the price of say the Dynon set up... it's at the top of my panel shopping list.
 
Sig600 said:
After hearing of several guys losing their engine in the goo (or on top of it) and being able to make an emergency landing to a paved surface using the synthetic vision... I'm totally sold on it. Sure you can fly hard IFR with a six pack and a nav/comm with ILS... but the peace of mind that synthetic vision offers (in my mind) especially at the price of say the Dynon set up... it's at the top of my panel shopping list.
Click to expand...

That's why I included an iPad with flight software on it. It's about the cheapest solution going now...

Too, one of my two examples was Dynon's Skyview, which does have synthetic vision. I only omitted GRT because I'm less familiar with their pricing, but believe their solution costs a bit more based on numbers a year or so ago - that may have changed.

Whether or not you need synthetic vision is a personal call. I firmly believe I could land on an airfield without it using my 496, which has top-down terrain. Then again, every test I've ever taken (including the ones that got me into the Air Force to fly pointy jets) indicates I have exceptional visualization skills. If you feel that you cannot get by without SV, then include it in your panel.

However, since people have been flying safely without it for 100 years I'll submit that it is "optional" for "light IFR..." :D
 
breister said:
That's why I included an iPad with flight software on it. It's about the cheapest solution going now...

Too, one of my two examples was Dynon's Skyview, which does have synthetic vision. I only omitted GRT because I'm less familiar with their pricing, but believe their solution costs a bit more based on numbers a year or so ago - that may have changed.

Whether or not you need synthetic vision is a personal call. I firmly believe I could land on an airfield without it using my 496, which has top-down terrain. Then again, every test I've ever taken (including the ones that got me into the Air Force to fly pointy jets) indicates I have exceptional visualization skills. If you feel that you cannot get by without SV, then include it in your panel.

However, since people have been flying safely without it for 100 years I'll submit that it is "optional" for "light IFR..." :D
Click to expand...

Yeah, people have been flying without if for 100 years (and I've managed to find the back of the aircraft carrier at night a few hundred times without SV), however if I'm IMC or on top and suddenly find myself needing pavement now while running on stem power, being able to place the velocity vector on a runway via SV gives me a much higher probability of success than hoping the airport icon on a handheld is accurate. Especially if the weather below is low. If you ask me it's money well spent.
 
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