NASA515

Well Known Member
Page 42C-05 Rev 0 calls for attaching the Center Panel to the Support Stanchions, and also securing the Center Switch and Fuse Panel, with AN507 screws. (these screws are in Bag 2862.)

Page 42C-11 Rev 0 also calls for attaching the Ignition Module on the LH Panel with these same AN507 screws.

An507 screws are countersunk head, S/S, non-structural screws. The pack sheet for Bag 2862 calls out AN507C632R8 screws, identifying them correctly as Screw, Flt Hd, SS.

Nowhere have I been able to find instructions or drawing callouts that call for countersinking these holes on the F-00028 LH Panel or the F-00023 Center Panel. All the builder panel pictures that I have found show round head Philips screws (and a few comments saying"Wish these were countersunk.")

The pictures I have seen would be similar or same as the AN515 screws which are Round Head screws and are called out on Page 29-07 Rev 1 Fig. 1 & 2. HOWEVER, both those figures call out "AN515 (round head) Optional AN507" (c/s hd.)

So, in a nutshell, the drawings call for flat head countersunk screws and the pack sheet agrees with the drawings, AND, in the Skyview drawings, no round head screw seems an option.

Am I correct in assuming that you builders are neither countersinking those panel holes nor using the included AN507 screws?

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Looks like I've fallen into the same trap. After painting the panel, I'm reluctant to countersink the holes and risk scratching the paint; doable, but could result in re-finishing the panel. I'm letting the paint harden a few days before deciding.

I can't see where it matters one way or another. I believe it's a matter of preference.

Cheers,

RL
 
Flush or round head... it isn't really a big issue, but if you use round head screws you wont be able to install some of the panel placards (Throttle, Choke, Cabin Heat), because of the limited space available (the placards need to lay over the top of a couple of the screws).

Photo of blue demonstrator shows it HERE
 
I'm right where you are, so that's why I've posted. I've already decided to not countersink all those holes, and to install round-head screws and match paint the heads to match the panel (I don't like the shiny screw heads - personal preference.)

BUT - doing so is not in conformity with the drawings, and there are DAR's lurking.....

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
If you countersink for just the screws on the bottom of the middle instrument section, you can have a label plate made a a trophy shop and install it like the one in this picture. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82782&page=10 I liked the look of the round heads given my panel background, but did not like the stick-on control labels.

Now if there is a DAR anywhere that would flunk an E-LSA status for something like this, then I think they need to go ahead and work for the TSA directly, because they have divested themselves of any shred of common sense!
 
Slightly off topic, but recently I told another builder, that I have never heard of ANY DAR or FSDO failing an ELSA period. That would make it appear that such trivia is ignored by them all I suppose. Has anyone heard of a flunked inspection so far?
 
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Someone was going to open this can or worms, and I just knew it would be you, Don!

This is an interesting subject that gets brought up as a reminder from time to time, and I always do an eye-roll and bite my tongue...... Actually, this forum is full of dozens (hundreds?) of "non-conformities" that all constitute deviations from Van's design drawings. I may be wrong, but my impression is that builders "solve" their problems themselves or by hashing the problem over with other builders (like on this Forum), or with someone at Van's Builder-Assist line, and arrive at a common-sense solution. I think (tell me if I'm wrong), that actually getting something in writing from Van's - allowing a deviation - is exceedingly rare. Based upon the very few revised drawing pages, problems in the plans that are reported by builders rarely result in released drawing updates. It may be, of course, that Van's keeps records of the corrections in some Master copy that may be released someday. But, current builders are left mostly in a no-man's land between the drawing and the hardware at-hand, and (mostly) make good sense decisions. Maybe, Van's knows all this stuff, and prudently let's sleeping dogs lie.

If a DAR wanted to, he could easily flunk a builder for non-conformity - I sure could! In my case, it would be easy - he would only have to look at my plans where I have pencil notations indicating "problems" along with my "solutions."

At the risk of boring the whole board (yawn), waaaay back in 'the last century' (or was it the century before last - I can't remember), in 1966 I was a young pup (really!) Liaison Engineer working on building the first 737. I worked from 4 PM - 2 AM, and had a steel desk right under the airplane's right wing in the new factory. I did that seven days a week. A Liaison Engineer at Boeing fixes all the errors in the drawings and all the screw-ups in the factory, by means of Pickups and Rejection Tags.

Everything required a Disposition. If there was an error in the drawing, for example (as above- a countersunk fastener called out for installation in a non-countersunk hole,) then I would write a Disposition (say calling for counter-sinking the hole, or changing the fastener) that would allow the shop to proceed with the airplane's assembly. This then required the Discrepancy to migrate back up the Drawing system to the "Project" engineer responsible for that drawing. He (sometimes I would) would generate an ADCN - Advance Drawing Change Notice. This would document the correction to the drawing, and as a released piece of paper, get stapled to the drawing. All drawings had them - when there was a moderately thick bunch stapled to a drawing, the engineer would DCN the drawing - Drawing Change Notice - and the drawing would be re-released with all the ADCN's incorporated on the face of the drawing, which now had a Revision Letter - i.e. Rev "A".

The Shop, QC, and Drawing Release (where the shop would get their drawings) all had to review the build against the drawing INCLUDING all attached ADCN's - if any. All drawings used on the shop floor had a date sticker afixed to document the drawing's currency.

The OTHER thing I did was Disposition the Shop screw-ups that resulted in a non-conformity with the drawing requirements. These ranged from the common (over-sized or mis-located holes, wire bundles severed by accidental drill-throughs) to the major (airplane fell off jacks and punched a hole in the fuselage or wing) to the gargantuan (biggest I was ever involved in - remove both wings off a 747 - took two weeks.) An R/T (Rejection Tag) was created, and engineering (usually me) would disposition it with a repair or MRB (Materials Review Board.) It would authorize the shop to oversize the hole, drill a new hole, substitute a different fastener, manufacture a repair splice or doubler, or some such. (Struc & Func in Boeing jargon was the easiest - the as-built is Structurally and Functionally satisfactory.)

Everything had to be documented. Everything had a pedigree. That is the nature of operating under a Production Certificate. Every airplane has a pedigree involving three FAA Certificates - under Title 14. A TYPE Certificate, that says the airplane has been demonstrated to comply with the applicable Airworthiness requirements (in Boeing's case - FAR 25 - Transport Category airplanes). A Production Certificate, that says Boeing has demonstrated to the FAA's satisfaction that it has the tools, organization, and systems to produce the airplane. And an Airworthiness Certificate, that says that that individual airplane has been manufactured in conformity with the Type design using the approved Production system.

In the case of an E-LSA, in a sense, WE are the holders of the Production Certificate. But - unlike an E-AB airplane - we are NOT the "manufacturer." That's why Van's gets their name on the Data Plate - and not us.

Van's has certified (actually self-certified, with some FAA oversight) that the design meets the design requirements (in this case the ASTM LSA Committee F-37 requirements.) When we present to the FAA (or their designee - a DAR) an application for an Airworthiness Certificate, we are legally declaring that we have constructed the airplane in conformity with the plans. 100% conformity.

But, of course, we don't. Don't conform 100%, that is. I can guarantee it. Since Van's obviously does not run a Production set-up like the Boeing system I described above (or these would be $10M LSA's!), then WE are left to bridge the gaps between the drawings, with their inevitable discrepancies, and the deviations from the drawings (mis-drilled and butchered holes, etc.) I'd say we do the producing and gap-bridging in a pretty intelligent and safe way. An RV-12, like a 737, has a lot of foregiveness built into it, to accommodate deviations.

How's that for a long-winded reply, Don? And I was just getting started! If DARs wanted to be hard-nosed on this subject, there wouldn't be a single E-LSA out there flying.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
I agree with all that. Way back when I had drunk too much ELSA cool aid, I actually got approval in writing from Vans for two deviations. They were those minor things that really did not make any difference, except my plane was non-conforming - and I had Vans approval to do it that way.
 
Oh the shame of it all, you want me to confess even!
The first was page 06-03, figure 1. I forgot to taper the ends of the VS1212A-R, did not notice it until the part was completed.They said the excess weight on the tail would not be too bad.
Next was that sneaky page 09-03, figure 3. Notice that the one rib next to the center is reversed? Well, I didn't. It makes it a litle harder to get in there with a nut and washer or something as I recall. Those ribs are reversed on my plane.
Now the whole world knows of my sins:mad:

Don,
What were the 2 things Van's okay'd in writing?
 
My favorite quote, useful in MANY different situations.......

"A difference that MAKES no difference, IS no difference." ....Spock
 
I used the truss hd screws and all is fine. I didn't sweat the large placards as they clutter up the panel. The placards for the controls were not a problem.
Dick Seiders
 
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