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notworthy

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Long term lurker here asking a question for a friend...

Has anyone ever heard of a DAR requiring an initial sign off of an EAB by an A&P IA before they will do the inspection and issue an airworthiness certificate?

I have never seen this mentioned before....
 
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The DAR cannot legally require a A&P sign off. There was some confusion several years ago. It is now stated within FAA Order 8130.2F that an A&P sign off is NOT required. The builder must make a statement that he has inspected the aircraft and considers it to be in a condition for safe operation.
ref: FAA Order 8130.2F, paragraph 147.b.(7)
 
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It's truly amazing how the standards vary between DARs. I'm sure they all have good reasons.

I would've fully understood if my DAR had suggested that, since I was a first-time builder with ZERO aircraft systems/building experience, it would be helpful for us both if I had an AP/IA give the project a good once-over. And, I sort of did -- he stopped by several times and walked around, nosing here and there. Unfortunately, however, he was so blown away by how neat and clean everything looked (like most APs, he's used to working on well-worn spam cans caked in gook), that he never really delved into anything significant. He just poked around, grinning. However, a few other sets of knowledgeable eyes went over it before the DAR did his inspection.

If, on the other hand, I'd already successfully built a plane (or planes as many of you have) and had a DAR insist or even suggest that, I think I'd find a different DAR. But that's just me.
 
My DAR "suggested" that I have such an entry in my log book. I was lucky in that my brother is an A&P (not IA) and he inspected my workmanship many times throughout the build process.

The first entry in my log book is Walt's professionally worded statement that he signed. One look at that by the DAR and the rest of inspection was a breeze.

The next statement in the log book is my inspection/certification statement.

So maybe not required but if you've got an A&P friend it sure won't hurt.
 
notworthy said:
Long term lurker here asking a question for a friend...

Has anyone ever heard of a DAR requiring an initial sign off of an EAB by an A&P IA before they will do the inspection and issue an airworthiness certificate?

I have never seen this mentioned before....
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You don't say much about your friend or the airplane he (or she) built. A good DAR can tell in about 30 seconds if the airplane he is asked to issue an airworthiness certificate for has been built to reasonable quality standards. Isn't possible that DAR's request was just a PC way of handling a rather "delicate" situation?
 
Rick6a said:
You don't say much about your friend or the airplane he (or she) built. A good DAR can tell in about 30 seconds if the airplane he is asked to issue an airworthiness certificate for has been built to reasonable quality standards. Isn't possible that DAR's request was just a PC way of handling a rather "delicate" situation?
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That's a very good point, Rick. In fact, when my DAR stopped by a couple of months before the inspection wearing his "EAA hat", he walked around it and looked at some very specific things. Then, after looking at the engine compartment, turned to start working on paperwork.

"Uh," I said, "don't you have any suggestions of things I need to fix or change? You didn't look very hard."

He smiled and said, "As soon as I walked into the hangar and saw the plane I knew that it was well-built." Naturally, he was quite right. :D Of course, he still looked MUCH harder when he showed up wearing his "FAA hat".

I'm sure the DARs could all chime in on this thread and tell similar stories. You may be quite right, Rick. Diplomacy at its finest!
 
Well that may be true in some cases but this DAR has never seen this aircraft and most likely has no knowledge of it at all. This question is based on the fact that he required this signoff before looking at two previous aircraft that were showroom quality builds built by mutual friends. It appears to be standard practice for him. :confused:

The aircraft in question is not important (although it is a nice one inspected many times by an EAA Technical Counselor), it is more a question of what the true requirements are for inspection.

Rick6a said:
You don't say much about your friend or the airplane he (or she) built. A good DAR can tell in about 30 seconds if the airplane he is asked to issue an airworthiness certificate for has been built to reasonable quality standards. Isn't possible that DAR's request was just a PC way of handling a rather "delicate" situation?
Click to expand...
 
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My experience with AIs for my certified airplanes is that different inspectors tend to focus on different things. It's helpful to have different qualified people looking at the plane simply because it's likely that one will catch something that another might overlook.

For a homebuilt, it's not a reflection on the builder for a DAR to ask that. It's a reasonable thing.

But if the DAR looks at an A&P sign-off and then doesn't examine the plane himself, I'd tell him to look at it himself or I'll get a less lazy one, and explain why.

David
 
David Paule said:
My experience with AIs for my certified airplanes is that different inspectors tend to focus on different things. It's helpful to have different qualified people looking at the plane simply because it's likely that one will catch something that another might overlook.

For a homebuilt, it's not a reflection on the builder for a DAR to ask that. It's a reasonable thing.

But if the DAR looks at an A&P sign-off and then doesn't examine the plane himself, I'd tell him to look at it himself or I'll get a less lazy one, and explain why.

David
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No, it's not reasonable. Requiring an A&P/AI sign-off prior to a DAR inspection is creating regulation where no regulation exists. The rules concerning experimental aircraft airworthiness inspections are clear--requiring this "pre-inspection" is in violation of the rules.

What 'reasonable' rules should the DAR create next? The experimental community has fought several battles with rogue DAR's and much effort has been expended to make sure everyone is playing on a level field.

Please shop for a DAR and make sure you know exactly what you are getting. Most DAR's are gold but there are a few stinkers out there. Here is a good list:

http://www.vansairforce.net/dar.htm
 
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Liability issue

Would an AI/A&P have any qualms about signing off an experimental aircraft - especially one where he was not familiar w/ the builder ? All the ones I know are very concerned about liability and the protection of their credentials. I'll have to ask my local guys.

Steve
 
Sam Buchanan said:
No, it's not reasonable. Requiring an A&P/AI sign-off prior to a DAR inspection is creating regulation where no regulation exists. The rules concerning experimental aircraft airworthiness inspections are clear--requiring this "pre-inspection" is in violation of the rules.

What 'reasonable' rules should the DAR create next? The experimental community has fought several battles with rogue DAR's and much effort has been expended to make sure everyone is playing on a level field.
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I completely agree with Paul on this. As someone who deals with some very strict rules, policies and procedures on a daily basis, I know that *I* don't get to create new ones out of thin air and impose them on the organizations and people under my purview. Should I do that, I would have a dozen or so teams loudly insisting on me providing the "regulatory" basis for my decisions, and if none existed, you can bet there would be an issue with upper management on all sides. In other words, **** to pay.

Creating regulations "on the fly" like this is why people distrust organizations like the FAA.
 
notworthy said:
Well that may be true in some cases but this DAR has never seen this aircraft and most likely has no knowledge of it at all. This question is based on the fact that he required this signoff before looking at two previous aircraft that were showroom quality builds built by mutual friends. It appears to be standard practice for him. :confused:

The aircraft in question is not important (although it is a nice one inspected many times by an EAA Technical Counselor), it is more a question of what the true requirements are for inspection.
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Well, so much for giving him the benefit of the doubt! :rolleyes:

I'd just pass on him and find another DAR. It sounds like he's just trying to cover his butt and hope that if there's an inspection by an A&P/IA, that if anything goes wrong AFTER he's signed it off, he'll get to share the responsibility with the poor schlub A&P. If that's the case, then NO A&P should sign it off -- it's exposing him to liability unnecessarily.
 
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