osxuser

osxuser

Well Known Member
Ok, so I haven't even gotten any part of my kit yet, but I've already fallen victim to epanelbuilder.com's lure.
panel.jpg

Thats my first shot at it. I'm sure it will be refined as I actually start to build.
 
Nice looking panel.

Two suggestions.

1st. Take a look at Affordable Panels. It will make installation and maintenance MUCH easier.

2nd. Think about an electronic engine monitor. (There are a bunch out there and everyone has a favorite so I won't mention the one I'm going with. ;)) They are compact, have good displays, display a LOT of information on one screen, can feed an out of limits condition tone to your intercom, and usually less expensive to buy and install, are easier to install, leave you with more panel space for other options, AND...

they look COOL!

You are right ePanelBuilder is very addictive.
 
Nice panel! That being said, I only have a couple of friendly suggestions.

1) Put the BMA EFIS top and center. You'll definately end up using this as your primary flight instrument.

2) For the cost of the engine instruments you have, you could buy a decent engine monitor and get more functionality in a smaller, more attractive package.

3) For the same price as the stand alone CDI, VSI, T&B you could just as easily buy a 2nd EFIS...get more functionality and have the benefit of 2 EFIS's which would cover your desire for backups.

4) The AOA is a very good idea, but should be as close to front and center as you can get it. After you fly behind one, you'll be watching that during your approaches instead of everything esle.

5) Try to keep all the switches, knobs, etc.. on the lower part of the panel. Future maintenance WILL be a LOT easier...and you will work on it sooner or later. Even if you have a modular panel, it's better to use that space at the top of the panel to move the instruments up and put the switches below. It's also ergonmically much better to have the switches close to either your throttle hand or flying hand.

Overall, a nice setup, but like I said I'd suggest putting the main flight instruments as high on the panel as possible. You'll be moving your eyes and head less, etc... A good engine monitor also buys you more functionality beyond the steam gauges at not much more cost. If you go that route, you don't need the larger panel, and you'll end up saving some space and roominess (and knee room ) in the cockpit as you'll be able to use the standard van's panel. As an aside, if you end up with more glass stuff most everything in your panel will load from the front so working on them becomes a breeze!

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein.
 
Last edited:
Nice layout (and responses from others). The only thing I would add is to consider whether you want a tip-up or slider, as the panel support ribs are different for the two configurations:
  • A tip-up panel has two support ribs behind the panel (slider has three if I remember right).
  • If slider, those switches at the top of the panel can be darn near impossible to service (IMHO). I put all the 'wire intensive' stuff at the top of my panel (tip-up) where they are easily worked on (image of this). Just food for thought...
Best,
Doug


osxuser said:
Ok, so I haven't even gotten any part of my kit yet, but I've already fallen victim to epanelbuilder.com's lure.
panel.jpg

Thats my first shot at it. I'm sure it will be refined as I actually start to build.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
General comments to add:

How often do your eyes stay glued to the engine instruments? They tell you nothing unless you SEE them, and by the time you notice a problem, it may be too late to do anything immediately helpful about it.
So consider saving a LOT of panel space and tremendously improving the utility of engine instrumentation by going with the EIS4000. You get the capability of accurate leaning with it's leaning function indicators, plus, it will IMMEDIATELY light up a bright emergency light AND put out an audible warning if any of the parameters go out of spec. At the same time, it will automatically switch to the screen with the out-of-whack parameter so you can instantly what's going on.
Additionally, you can configure any of several screens to read just the instrumention you want on that screen, and you can change screens at any time with a single push of a button.

If you're going to have an AOA, put it where it does the most good at the very top of the panel, or better yet, on TOP of the panel in plain view. You'll be referring to it every time you land.

If you clean up the panel by going with an engine monitor instead, you can then move the CDI up higher for better reference during approaches.
I would also note that you will most likely be referencing the GPS map on the 430 much more often than you need to fiddle with the AP, so move the AP head over on the other side of the radios so the radio stack can be closer to you.

The one thing I can guarantee you is that you will reconfigure your proposed panel at least a couple dozen times while you get closer and it will eventually look nothing like what you started with. Ask me how I know...

What you really need to do first is to absolutely define your mission beyond just IFR vs. VFR.
Some IFR pilots have stated that they fly real IFR less than 2% of their flight hours over a period of time while others go out and look for clouds. When you decide what kind of flying you want to do, you'll get closer to knowing what kind of panel you need, not just what kind you want.
 
Just some thoughts

I agree with many of the others on the their thoughts on the panel. At this point you are only entertaining yourself by designing the panel. When you are ready there will more "latest and greatest" stuff. Definitely get rid off all the standard guages and go with an engine monitor. I'm about a month from flying and if I had to do it again....

Current panel,
Dynon 10A
Trutrak T&B
Garmin 106 CDI
Trutrak Digiflight II VSGS
ACS engine monitor
EXP switch bus
Garmin 340
Garmin 430
SL40 Comm
Garmin 330S transponder
Approach systems wiring hub
XM satelite radio

If doing it now with reasonable money considerations

Dynon big screen x 2
Same auto pilot
Conventional switches
The only stack item I'd change is a 530 for a 430.
No other instruments at all

I'd definitely wait as long as possible to decide because of the constant change in technology.

Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
 
Well, I hate to say this, but I like steam gauges. First the answer questions:

It will be a Slider

Yes the switches will probably end up on the bottom OR the center console with the throttle/mixture/prop.

The EFIS/Lite is there mostly as an EHSI, not as a Attitude Indicator. The main Attitude and TC are to be Vacuum powered.

I want to find the nice little 2" round engine gauges that the late model Beech A36's use for engine instruments. Looks very nice and military. Lacking those, I'd still go with 2 1/4" Engine gauges. If I went with the engine monitor, the minimum backup instruments would still be RPM, Manifold Pres, Oil Pressure & Temp. I just don't quite trust the black boxes.

JPI will be the engine monitor of choice, probably just an EDM 700 with FF.

I can forsee the primary instruments moving closer together and UP more. Also perhaps put the Autopilot in the stack and move the CDI up. We'll see what the future brings eh?

The plan is for IFR when needed. In the case of vacuum failure, revert to EFIS as Attitude and CDI for approach options (Now limited to VOR/LOC/ILS)

It's interesting to have such positive feedback about the AOA. I hesitated orginally if I should put it in or not. I fly airspeed approaches mostly, so I didn't think it was necessary.
 
I agree with Highflights last statements. I am going to go basic IFR to use only when necessary. I don't intend on making the flights IFR unless necessary.

I too like the steam gauges for flight instruments but I think I will use one of the electronic monitoring systems for my engine instruments. It just saves space and minimizes the space that you have to scan. This should allow you to notice any suspicious reading much sooner.

This is the fun of Home Builts. Everyone can offer opinions but in the end you get to do what YOU want.
 
osxuser said:
...If I went with the engine monitor, the minimum backup instruments would still be RPM, Manifold Pres, Oil Pressure & Temp. I just don't quite trust the black boxes.
Click to expand...

Please don't take this wrong, I'm not blasting you but I have to ask this question.

Why go with backup engine instruments? I understand backup flight instruments (I'm installing a traditional airspeed indicator, altimeter, & compass to complement the Dynon EFIS I will install.) but why do you care if the engine instruments go Tango Uniform? As long as that big chunk of metal up front continues to make noise you can get home or at least to the nearest airport and fix the problem. Having multiple gauges for the same things reminds me of an old saying, "A man with two watches never knows what time it is."

Just my thinking on the subject from a guy who thinks having an electric starter is a newfangled invention of questionably necessity.

Regarding the placement of your AOA and airspeed indicator, put them in the upper left hand corner of the panel, right next to each other because that is where you will most likely be looking when landing.

Keep playing with the layout, you will eventually hit on a panel that YOU want, which is the idea of building your own plane.
 
old technology vs. new

I can identify with your desire for steam gauges and vacuum pumps. That was my first inclination, also. Gradually, the lure of new technology got the best of me. Now flying with Dynon and EIS4000, and very happy. :)

The new technology is pretty spiffy.
 
To continue on Engine Instrument

Not to harp on this issue and I respect your opinion for steam gagues for the engine stuff. I too come from that school of flying, but after years working with this stuff there are some good points to make and I've remained open minded enough to try this new stuff out for awhile before I decide not to like it.

You'd probably be surprised to know that the "black boxes" are actually quite reliable, and in most cases will be far more reliable than the round gauges. Additionally, round gauges are notoriouslly inaccurate when compared to the digital ones.

You've kind of created a juxtoposition for yourself. You're willing to trust the JPI for EGT & CHT (for accuracy, etc.. no doubt), but still require analog gauge for RPM, MP, OP & OT?? Don't mean to sound fececious here, but either you trust the stuff or you don't.... Here's where you really need to do some thinking - if you go with the Van's electronic gauges which keep the sensor on the firewall forward side, you're already using a gauge which is translating a signal into a display (kind of like the "black boxes"). Like a previous posted stated, unless you watch them ALL THE TIME, you just won't see a bad trend, etc.. arising or your oil pressure falling. With an engine monitor, it'll tell you before it's too late. Yes, you can install annunciators, but then you're back to adding more stuff to the panel, cost, complexity, etc..

These are really areas where the electronic or digital instruments are quite a lot more accurate than the old analog ones. Analog Tachs are rarely accurate, and analog Oil Pressure / Oil Temp Gauges are also never as accurate as their digital brethren.

Anyway, it's obvious that I'm in the camp of throwing away the round gauges, but that's only my opinion and everyone is entitled to one. Just because I think that the digital boxes are better doesn't mean I'm right or you are wrong. We just disagree!

As long as I'm spouting off opinions.....I'd throw away the vacuum system too. Just another historically un-reliable system that you have to tinker with at least every 500hrs or so. Do some rolls, loops and wifferdills in your new RV and they'll be garbage! My thought.....throw the vac stuff away, buy a vac mounted alternator or install a 2nd battery, buy the second EFIS and now you've got the same redundancy you were looking for and at it's much more reliable.

Once again, just to make sure you know I'm being objective here....I still have a vac system with gyros in my RV6, but only becuase there were none of these affordable EFIS's availble with I built it. As soon as they all die (and they are dying), I'm yanking out the panel in putting in digital stuff!

Just my 2 cents as usual. It's only worth what you paid for it. Either way, no matter what you decide to do, you'll have one hell of a nice plane when you're done!

Cheers,
Stein.
 
The paridox of having two MP/RPM indications is why I'd prefer to stay all anolog. I don't see an advantage to turning a mechanical type of gauge (Oil pressure for instance) into a digital readout that can fail for a varity of reasons. I'm an A&P and I see these things go haywire all the time in the 20+ year old Cessna twins. It's not that they don't work well now, but 15-20 years down the road? And who's gonna support them when the company goes out of business?

So take an oil pressure gauge with a nice copper hard line to the engine, and it will just keep working. Same thing with Tach + Tach cable, MP and hard line, Oil temp uses electric sensor (Might just incorporate that into the JPI, since it's an option). I guess I just always want to know what my engines doing, no matter if the alternator stops making electrons or not.

I very seriously considered going to full electrical system, but the cost of going dual alt + dual battery + Dual bus, plus the higher cost of electric gyros just didn't appeal to me. I feel it adds complexity to an airplane that I want to make my pilot friends feel comfortable flying. I do plan on using a high reliablity pump, either a wet pump or the new sigma-tek piston type.

At this point, if I did dump the sucky pump, I would just go full glass, probably not Blue Mountain either, but I do like the EHSI in theirs.
 
Panel Design

osxuser said:
Ok, so I haven't even gotten any part of my kit yet, but I've already fallen victim to epanelbuilder.com's lure.
panel.jpg

Thats my first shot at it. I'm sure it will be refined as I actually start to build.
Click to expand...


You'll have lots of time to work your panel design over the years.
My suggestions are:
- don't finalize it until you have to, new avionics may be available by then
- download the Autocad file from Van's and work off of an exact template for placement. Mark any 'keep out' areas.
- the subpanel (forward) is structural. If your avionics penetrate it, you'll have to build stiffeners.
- using full-size templates, build a 'paper doll' panel and stick it in place. Many refinements will occur as you find fit problems.
-make it removable.

You don't have to use the Affordable Panels design to make a removable panel.
Modern avionics is so light that it's possible to make the entire panel removable if you connectorized things properly.

Connectors required:
-Main electrics and grounds (could just disconnect the fast-ons at the switches and grounds at the firewall)
-Magneto/ignition
-Autopilot
-Audio (if jacks are not on the panel)
-Engine monitor sensors
-EFIS remote sensors
-Compass light
-ELT control
-BNCs for all antennas
-couplings for pitot, static, aoa
-etc.

It takes me about 20 minutes to put my panel in or take it out, and I've done it several times.
It's sure nice to work on it ouside of the airplane, or to work on the airplane with the panel removed.

It'll take some design work to figure this all out, so it's good that you are starting early.
If you are interested in a fully editable electrical system/avionics system design,
you can check the link near the bottom at www.vx-aviation.com

Here's a panel image of my panel. If you look closely, you'll see the 'keep out' areas marked.


Good Luck
Vern Little
RV-9A

panel_final.jpg
 
I have only one additional comment

There have been lots of good suggestion for you already. The only one I have not seen is to be aware of clearance issues at the top of the panel.
If the item being placed at the top has any depth to it, watch out. If you are going with a tipup canopy (my choice) there are support structures back
behind the panel that need to be accounted for.
Because of this I had Van's make me another panel blank that has 1 inch taller so that I could fit my stuff in the right places.

Good luck.

Kent
 
The Van's gauges you show are all electric with a sender unit on the firewall side. I would not use the press & temp gauges again - my oil pressure gauge quit on base leg into Oshkosh last year (after 400 hours). I then found out all the temp gauges were quite inaccurate. I now have an EIS-4000. Agree that JPI 700 is very attractive if you use mech tach & oil press. The only Van's gauges that I have left are 2xfuel quantity & volts (to fill in an empty panel hole). Have fun in sorting out your panel, don't decide too soon.

Yours, Pete
RV-6A
 
Thanks, I'm aware that Van's gauges are electric sender type. And I'm not planning on using them, but those were the ones that epanelbuilder had. I just use them to represent the form I want.
 
New PS Engineering Audio Panel

Dear Osxuser

I noticed that you have selected our PMA8000. Good news, we have just announced our the PMA8000B. Here are the enhancements:

1) Front panel utility jack for cellphone, iPod, and GPS396 audio
2) Digital recorder now standard with playback on front of panel
3) Three front panel selectable audio panel configurations, allowing pilot to customize his audio panel to fit his needs
4) No price increase

You can see a picture of the unit at www.ps-engineering.com/pma8000b.shtml

We have tried really hard to make this the very best value in audio panels, and really has no equal.

Thanks again for choosing our audio panel, you'll really appreciate the new capabilities.

Sincerely,
Mark Scheuer
PS Engineering, Inc.
www.ps-engineering.com
 
Very nice, we currently have a 7000B in our C177 with an Apollo IFR stack and couldn't be happier. I recommend PSe to everyone I know. I've also done the install of a 4000 in a Whitmen Tailwind. I just love your products :)
 
Audio stuff

Mark, I just cruised your site, neat stuff. If I can be so bold as to make a suggestion---------put the front mounted audio input jack on all of your products that it would be applicable to---------would make your C/D audio panel unit a lot more versitile.

I will definately give your products strong consideration when I get to the stage of developing my panel for my -10

Mike S
 
You must log in or register to reply here.