N

N57GK

I'm New Here
Hi All, this is my first post...

I purchased an RV-8 in March and with winter approaching quickly in New England, I decided to try to make it IFR legal. So I designed a new panel (using almost all the existing equipment and only adding an IFR GPS and some customization) and built it up. I left space for, but I haven't gotten an indicator for the GPS (KLN 90B) and was trying to figure out if it is needed...

So three questions:
1. Do I need an indicator to be IFR legal with an up-to-date GPS database and all the other requirements being met?
2. Do I need external indicators to be legal?
3. Anyone know where I can get a KI 202, 206 or other recommended CDI?

Thanks in advance! -Kyle

BTW, how to you insert photos? It asks me for a website when attempting to do so...
 
N57GK said:
Hi All, this is my first post...

I purchased an RV-8 in March and with winter approaching quickly in New England, I decided to try to make it IFR legal. So I designed a new panel (using almost all the existing equipment and only adding an IFR GPS and some customization) and built it up. I left space for, but I haven't gotten an indicator for the GPS (KLN 90B) and was trying to figure out if it is needed...

So three questions:
1. Do I need an indicator to be IFR legal with an up-to-date GPS database and all the other requirements being met?
2. Do I need external indicators to be legal?
3. Anyone know where I can get a KI 202, 206 or other recommended CDI?

Thanks in advance! -Kyle

BTW, how to you insert photos? It asks me for a website when attempting to do so...
Click to expand...

You need all the equipment that is required in a Certificated Airplane Installation to be legal.

So...
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Try SteinAir.
 
There was an article in the sport aviation mag about ifr equipment. I'll try and get the specific issue for you. A good auto pilot and back up systems are a must. :D welcome to the VAF site. See you next summer in vt.
 
If You Have To Ask...

Kyle:
As a newly minted instrument pilot (or a long time pilot with limited instrument experience), you should probably be thinking not only minimum equipment, but also maximum situational awareness. Also, once you have the equipment, I'd suggest some additional training to help determine where your comfort level is with it.
Many instrument pilots will say ,"I won't fly unless I have personal minimums of such and such". Truth is, when you're in "the system", you'd better be able to really fly on the Gage's and shoot approaches to minimums. In addition, if you can't do either of these without anxiety, you really shouldn't be flying IFR.
Finally, Ed's suggestion above for an AP is a good one, especially in a short wing RV- and he's got plenty of experience to back up his suggestions.
Welcome to the RV nation.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Not necessarily.

Kyle, you didn't say whether you have a glass panel or steam gauges.

I have a glass Dynon 100 and it's HSI is legal. No outside indicator is necessary and I've done IFR demonstration to satisfy my CFII.

IIRC, all the new glass has an HSI with glideslope capabilities.

Best,
 
N57GK said:
Hi All, this is my first post...

I purchased an RV-8 in March and with winter approaching quickly in New England, I decided to try to make it IFR legal....

So three questions:
...

Thanks in advance! -Kyle

BTW, how to you insert photos? It asks me for a website when attempting to do so...
Click to expand...

Answer to your fourth question can be found by clicking the link on the first page of these forums, upper left corner, fourth line down, "Insert Pics."
 
Last edited:
This question can be answered by reading the installation manual rather than speculating on a forum.
The install manual is the ruling document for a particular piece of equipment that has been IFR approved by the FAA.

Section 1.8 spells it out quite plainly.
 
Last edited:
N57GK said:
1. Do I need an indicator to be IFR legal with an up-to-date GPS database and all the other requirements being met?
2. Do I need external indicators to be legal?
Click to expand...

I have a KLN-89B and also a KLN-94. Neither require an OBS and its spelled out in the installation manuals although it states that the installation certifying agency may require an OBS for approach approval. So if you're ok with the additional button pushing that is required to get to the OBS screen then you should be ok without one. Its easy to roll your own external annunciators and switches.

"Being legal" is a particularly gray area when it comes to IFR GPS installations in experimentals. Since the FAA doesn't approve installations its up to you to be compliant.
 
Thank you

Firstly, this place (albeit virtual) is awesome! Much appreciate all of your feedback.

RZbill, the question arose because the installation manual was a bit ambiguous mixing "recommended and required" throughout the annunciators and indicators discussion... and you could drive a truck through the regs... "navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown" (can I just use my portable SP-200 and shoot ILS approaches?) so I would offer the opinion it is not "speculation on a forum"... plus I got tons of good info from ya'll.

Also figured out how to post the pics... before and after panel. Made up the harnesses last night (and included provisions for the indicator and annunciators) which should be fairly straightforward to add.

Also, yes, fully agree with the personal minimums... and its not my intention to go blasting off into low ceilings, but I'd like to be able to legally file to get through a layer.

Low budget panel upgrade... The cutout around the Garmin is made for an iPad mini mount... and I plan to steal my daughters when she gets sick of it and pop it in the plane.


4i1xt5.jpg


Old Panel
2mpzfah.jpg
 
Believe it or not, you do not have a lot of freedom to interpret 'navigation equipment suitable...' as you see fit, because the government has done it for you. 14 CFR 1.1 (definitions) lists a definition for what constitutes a suitable RNAV (including GPS) system. There's a lot of mumbo jumbo but basically it says that you have to follow the FAA's TSOs and A/Cs, or equivalent. It makes otherwise non regulatory publications regulatory! (there are precedents for this).
Interesting that there is no such requirement on VOR/ILS, DME, ADF, etc.

Btw, last time I looked you needed a current database to do ifr approaches; but ifr enroute was allowed if you manually verified the lat/lon of waypoints in an expired database. I know of no one who does that.

Also, I cannot see any VOR receiver. What TSO is this King unit approved under? If it is TSO 129 then you cannot use it without a VOR (or maybe an ADF!) on board and operational. If it is TSO 145 or 146 you are good to go.
 
I don't find the below (copied from section 1.8 in the install manual) ambiguous at all.

********************************
2. Aircraft Installation Requirements
The following interface functions were not required for a VFR KLN 90 but are required for
an IFR?d KLN 90B installation.


TSO?d Antenna
<SNIP>

Nav Instrumentation
The navigation information (D-Bar, Nav Flag, and To-From) must be displayed on an
instrument in the pilot?s panel.
If the NAV information is displayed on an EFIS
system, it must be capable of displaying variable D- Bar scaling required for GPS approaches.

OBS Interface
For approach approval, the OBS resolver must be interfaced so that selected course through the HSI/CDI indicator will be sent to the KLN 90B for D-Bar resolution. In mechanical indicators, it will be accomplished by switching the OBS resolver lines; and in EFIS installations, it will be usually through the serial busses. Some EFIS applications
may require an adapter.

Switch/Annunciators:
NAV/GPS (Switch/Annunciator)
If the navigation information is displayed on a shared primary indicator a
switch/annunciator will be required to select and annunciate the source unless the indicator is part of an EFIS system that provides that function.

WPT/MSG (Annunciator)
The required annunciators are "WPT" and "MSG" only. Even though the information is available on the KLN 90B display, a remote annunciator is also required in the pilots panel unless it is accomplished in an HSI/CDI or EFIS display.

GPS CRS, OBS/LEG (Switch/Annunciator)
The KLN 90B may operate in either of two modes, LEG or OBS. In LEG mode, the flightplan legs will automatically sequence as determined by present position. In OBS mode, the active waypoint and inbound or outbound course will be manually selected.
The Remote OBS/LEG Switch/Annunciator is recommended for non-precision
approaches to reduce pilot workload.

GPS APR, ARM/ACTV (Switch/Annunciator)
The KLN 90B requires a switch/annunciator for arming, disarming, or deactivating the approach mode. It will provide remote annunciation of ARM and ACTV and provide a momentary switch function to arm, disarm, or deactivate the Approach Mode and change the D-Bar scale factors. (Refer to section 1.6.C for typical switch/annunciators).
 
Bad news

I looked it up, the KLN-90B is a tso C129 unit.
Without a VOR on board this box is useless for ifr. Sorry.
 
NAV/COM etc.

Bob et al,

Thanks for the guidance. I reserved a spot for the NAV/COM above the COM, (see the side cutouts... and just threw the printing there because I could for free), but now know it should be a priority/necessity based on the TSO. (I'm not ashamed to expose my naivety in this department and can't claim to be an expert... I'm only a couple weeks into this panel project and in IFR training, I don't recall diving into the real details of different GPS certifications).

So I guess the indicator and NAV/COM are settled and they go in.

Now I'm after the annunciators and autopilot... Reading some other posts on the G3X and Dynon... maybe I'll start saving up. (but with 4 small kids and a wife that prides herself as an "expert shopper", it is always difficult). I've reached out to a few for Blue Mountain control box and servos (to go with my EFIS), but yet to find an old one... anyone have a set buried in that junk box on the top shelf?

Cheers, -Kyle
 
The differences of what you can and cannot do with c129 vs c146 TSO gps units is pretty well spelled out in the AIM, although it's not the best written document in the world.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.