erikpmort

erikpmort

Well Known Member
I have begun my ifr studies. My Rv has an old kx135a. It has a glideslope, but it is a non ifr GPS. So I'm starting to look for one so I can do GPS approaches etc.

I need some guidance as to what I need vs features that might be nice but are unecessary. I know my budget is never going to exceed 5k on this. Point of my instrument rating is to improve my skills and safety, not to fly ifr all the time. What models would you reccomend on my budget, and is my budget acceptable? Thanks
 
Thanks for your post. (below) Are the update costs pretty uniform throughout the garmin range or does it vary a lot per the GPS ?
 
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I think you will have a hard time finding a WAAS unit within your budget.
Non WAAS means non precision approaches only, plus you must have a VOR and there are a few unimportant restrictions on alternates. Some used possibilities:
I see an ad in these forums for a non WAAS Garmin 400. This is a fine unit, GPS only (no com or VOR). Asking $3K. If you do not have a compatible EFIS you will need a CDI, $2K (!) new from Garmin. Entire US database is about $350 per year.
You can buy refurbished Garmin 300 units for about the same price. These are older boxes, but they do include a com as well as the GPS. You will need to build or buy an annunciator panel (switches and lights) and again you need a CDI.
The 480 is a WAAS box, don't know what they are going for, but I think I heard that it is getting hard to obtain repair services due to lack of parts. I see used 480's in the ads, they are out of your price range.
 
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Also keep in mind that by 2020 you will have to have ADS-B equipment, and that requires a WAAS GPS source. I'd be leery of getting anything non-WAAS at this point, even or VFR use.

Also, if you are not really going to be flying much IFR, you might consider a VFE GPS, such as an iPad, for situational awareness, and use the VOR system for getting around. You probably don't want to be shooting approaches to minimums if you are not flying IFR often. The VOR system will also be phased out, but by then the current crop of WAAS GPSs may be coming onto the market used, and you will also have a better idea of what your IFR and GPS needs really are.
 
Do I really need waas ? I'm not sure but I'm thinking a non precision approach minimum is still pretty low and most people don't have waas anyway. My buddy uses the kln90b all day long on the king air and he says its old but works just fine. I see em for 1500$ on eBay. So what am I missing out on besides waas if I get something older ?
 
I didn't realize it had to be waas in 2012. Yeah so if I upgraded it would be good for 7 years max.
 
Newer units will have nicer displays, and are also likely to be supported longer. The older the unit, the more likely that at some point you might not be able to get database updates for it.

Also, the cost is not the GPS unit alone, but you also need an annunciator and a CDI that can cost as much as one of the older GPS units ($1,200+). I think you can't just put in say a GNS430 or KLN89B, you also need the aforementioned extra equipment.
 
My advice, as a cfii, would be to train for your instrument rating with your current ILS/VOR capability. You'll learn position awareness without the moving map crutch. When you're done you'll have a much better idea of what you need or want as far as gps.
 
Before saying that VORs are going away, find the latest Federal Radionavigation Plan and see what the current plan is.

As far as WAAS positioning input into ADS-B Out equipment, ADS-B Out units in several years may have WAAS functionality incorporated into them. If that is correct, you need not buy a WAAS navigation system now.
 
BobTurner said:
I think you will have a hard time finding a WAAS unit within your budget.
Non WAAS means non precision approaches only, plus you must have a VOR and there are a few unimportant restrictions on alternates. Some used possibilities:
I see an ad in these forums for a non WAAS Garmin 400. This is a fine unit, GPS only (no com or VOR). Asking $3K. If you do not have a compatible EFIS you will need a CDI, $2K (!) new from Garmin. Entire US database is about $350 per year.
You can buy refurbished Garmin 300 units for about the same price. These are older boxes, but they do include a com as well as the GPS. You will need to build or buy an annunciator panel (switches and lights) and again you need a CDI.
The 480 is a WAAS box, don't know what they are going for, but I think I heard that it is getting hard to obtain repair services due to lack of parts. I see used 480's in the ads, they are out of your price range.
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Bob is correct on most of the non-precision approach certified GPSs will require the ACU (Annunciator Control Panel) and CDI to be IFR legal. Check the manufacturers installation and STC paperwork to see what is required. Some of the Garmin units with color displays do not require the ACU but still require a CDI or glass panel with CDI / HSI built in.

I have been using a 12-year old GX60. It has only been out for one software upgrade and one $500 repair in the past 12-years. MY IFR database subscription bill just showed up and is due in March. The database will cost $440 for one year of updates. Last time I checked Jeppesen, most of the database yearly subscriptions were $400 or more. Keep in mind that you do not have to have the latest database if the approach you are flying has not been changed since installation. (It is a pain to check the database to see if each approach matches the TPP. It is easier to just have a current database.)

Many of the WASS units available today are not ADS-B 2020 ready. Many will require at the minimum a Software Update that you may need to pay $1,000 to Garmin for the update. Unless you buy the latest GTN Garmin, expect an expense in the future to meet ADS-B requirements. It is possible that even the GTN my require a user paid for software update once the FAA figures out exactly what the final ADS-B requirements are.
 
pick up a 396/496. it has a ton of approaches in it and will serve you well in all your flying. in a emergency i would use it to get me down too. it is also the most useful avionics in my cockpit. cheap too. :)
57618435926319081128511.jpg
 
RV6_flyer said:
Many of the WASS units available today are not ADS-B 2020 ready. Many will require at the minimum a Software Update that you may need to pay $1,000 to Garmin for the update. Unless you buy the latest GTN Garmin, expect an expense in the future to meet ADS-B requirements. It is possible that even the GTN my require a user paid for software update once the FAA figures out exactly what the final ADS-B requirements are.
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Until recently the 430W/530W and GTN series did not meet the requirements of the 2020 mandate for a certified position source for ADS-B. This is because the feds changed the requirements mid roll-out.

The 430W/530W's update became available in October of last year and can be updated by an authorized dealer or avionics shop. SW ver 5.0 meets the 2020 requirements.

The GTN series update became available in December of last year and can be updated by an authorized dealer or avionics shop. Main SW ver 3.0 meets the 2020 requirements.

In the case of the 430W/530W, the update is optional and not covered under warranty. In this case expect to pay the people doing the update at least an hour's worth of labor. Sometimes this charge will be less if you have a relationship with them.

In the case of the GTN series, it is a recommended update and is covered under warranty by Garmin. This update should not cost anything since Garmin pays the people doing the update for performing this task.

In both cases, you must pay shipping and insurance if you ship the unit around the country to get it done.

I doubt you can find a case where Garmin charged $1000 for a firmware update......
 
Erik,

Consider Bob's reply carefully. The pilot is the single most important piece of "equipment" in any airplane. The best money you can spend is on proper training, not equipment. If the budget is limited (who's isn't?), then prioritize accordingly. Ed is correct: a simple handheld x96 class device properly used will add enormous situational awareness (if/when your instructor permits its use!).

Another consideration is your familiarity and comfort with all-attitude flying. Single pilot IFR in an RV isn't a problem, but as you know, the airplane has different handling characteristics than the typical light plane. It is more akin to single pilot IFR in a fighter than a 172 insofar as the airplane is more neutral (in terms of stability) and has a higher pilot workload requirement. If you become distracted in the cockpit (without benefit of an autopilot), deviation (unusual attitude/upset) is more likely than in a more stable aircraft (e.g., our aforementioned 172). Basic familiarity with aerobatics or at least good upset training will greatly help your comfort level when on the gauges. Obviously, a good automatic flight system will help (even if it's just a simple wing-leveler); but should never be depended upon as a crutch.

Another point to ponder is that proper use of a simulator is the single best way to improve your instrument skills in a cost-effective manner. If there is a local flight school or other suitable program, you may even find it effective to get your instrument rating in a different aircraft and then transition to instrument flying in your RV.

With a solid set of basic instrument skills, it's easy to transition to GPS-based navigation/approach...I'm content knowing that flying a timed procedure turn using a fixed-card ADF and subsequent NDB approach to minimums is just a quaint memory...

Fly safe,

Vac
 
erikpmort said:
It has a glideslope
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I am confused by this in the original post. May I assume that there is VOR/ILS capability within the craft? If not, ignore the rest.

If so, my recomendation is similar to others on this thread to go ahead and use the non-GPS system. I don't think your training would suffer for it.

File non /G until you can save enough $ to get the reasonably modern GPS you want. Use the VFR GPS as an aid until then.

I got my ticket on Non GPS steam. Its OK. really. I promise I don't have a tic.... or NDB nightmares. ;)
 
I think you need to separate the training issue from the flying you’ll do once you have your rating. I can’t argue what’s been posted about eschewing the GPS during training – definitely won’t hurt, although I’m not going that route myself (working on my own rating in a G1000 equipped 172). IMO the real issue here is what capability do you want post rating? I believe that you should get as much capability you can afford – why short change yourself? I’m of the mindset that if you don’t plan to fly IFR much (however I’m assuming at least enough to stay current) that you’d want as many options available to you as possible rather than a minimalist approach. YMMV....
 
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erikpmort said:
I need some guidance as to what I need vs features that might be nice but are necessary.
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Needs vs. wants.

Age old question for sure.

Even a song line about it; "need is a relative thing these days, it borders on desire--the high tech world is full of bright shiny things we think that we really require"

I think Todd hit the nail pretty squarely on the head, good advice from his post. Training needs vs. usage needs, and the less you fly IFR, the more options you can get the better.
 
thought i would post some pictures of my cockpit as to not create confusion.

i do have a wing lever which will help as someone said.

image_zps627e5b96.jpg


image_zpscbda415d.jpg


from what i'm reading (and please correct me if i'm wrong) i can file ifr with my current setup, i just cannot fly into actual imc. i would still need pitot heat, and what else? not sure. I'm trying to understand if i need any other approach capability to get the instrument ticket, i'm thinking i don't, but wouldn't want to fly real imc without a good ifr gps w moving map etc.
 
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OK, have a shot...

Nice. Looks like you like King equipment. OK!

Pop out the GPS and put in a KLN89B (under $1000 used) and pop out the CDI and install a TKM MC60 (about $550 new) and a switch ($10) a push button (ARM) and 4 lights. (MSG, WPT, ARM, GPS APPR Active)

The MC60 has the annunciator built in.

Throw out the whole dang thing in 7 years. :eek:

You'll still be ahead.

Dkb
 
IFR

Looks like to me your all set you can shoot a VOR , LOC, or ILS print out your plates free on lots of sites fly VOR airways and 9out of ten times go direct with non TSO gps on board 296-796 .
 
Brantel said:
Until recently the 430W/530W and GTN series did not meet the requirements of the 2020 mandate for a certified position source for ADS-B. This is because the feds changed the requirements mid roll-out.

The 430W/530W's update became available in October of last year and can be updated by an authorized dealer or avionics shop. SW ver 5.0 meets the 2020 requirements.

The GTN series update became available in December of last year and can be updated by an authorized dealer or avionics shop. Main SW ver 3.0 meets the 2020 requirements.

In the case of the 430W/530W, the update is optional and not covered under warranty. In this case expect to pay the people doing the update at least an hour's worth of labor. Sometimes this charge will be less if you have a relationship with them.

In the case of the GTN series, it is a recommended update and is covered under warranty by Garmin. This update should not cost anything since Garmin pays the people doing the update for performing this task.

In both cases, you must pay shipping and insurance if you ship the unit around the country to get it done.

I doubt you can find a case where Garmin charged $1000 for a firmware update......
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The RV-8A that is two hangars down from me spent several thousand dollars getting his 430 and 330 updated for ADS-B. He is the one that paid the money and told me the $1,000 update price. Both Garmin units were already in the airplane. I do not know what else he did as the GRT and Dynon displays also were already installed and working.
 
RV6_flyer said:
The RV-8A that is two hangars down from me spent several thousand dollars getting his 430 and 330 updated for ADS-B. He is the one that paid the money and told me the $1,000 update price. Both Garmin units were already in the airplane. I do not know what else he did as the GRT and Dynon displays also were already installed and working.
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Maybe he had his 430 updated to a 430W and that cost $$$$.$$ (not a simple firmware update)

or he could have had his 330 updated to a 330ES and that cost $$$$.$$ (not a simple firmware update)

I just had a GTX23ES updated with the optional update. Cost me an hours labor. Just had a GTN650 updated and it cost me nothing. I had to pay shipping and insurance both ways.

I am sure there is more to the story on that $1000.00 bill vs a simple firmware update.
 
You don't need pitot heat to fly ifr. I have a approach certified Apollo 2001nms that I purchases used about 5 years ago for $600.00, with separate indicator and anunciator buttons. Not the best situational awareness but it was inexpensive and IFR certified for approaches . I've been very happy with it.


Mike
 
comfortcat said:
Nice. Looks like you like King equipment. OK!
Pop out the GPS and put in a KLN89B (under $1000 used) and pop out the CDI and install a TKM MC60 (about $550 new) and a switch ($10) a push button (ARM) and 4 lights. (MSG, WPT, ARM, GPS APPR Active)
Click to expand...

Can't tell from the picture, but if the CDI is a KI-209A and not a KI-209, then it will work as-is with a KLN-89B and a replacement CDI is not required.
 
thanks guys! very very helpful. sounds like i can get along with what i have for training right now, which is great. i will keep researching ifr gps w moving map
 
I would add that the more equipment (430, autopilot) you have, it is MORE, not less, work to stay current. You have to be able to fly, and use these things. I have lost count of the number of times I've gotten into a 430 equiped airplane as a cfii and asked the pilot to set up a hold at some intersection, only to see them start squirming. They have completely forgotten. Same for autopilots, to use them safely when the chips are down you really want to know them inside out. It takes constant practice.
 
Something to consider. Take a look at LNAV (non-WAAS) minimums at your airport and ask yourself how likely you're going to be flying at LPV minimums, which at the airport nearest me with instrument procedures is 200-1/2 ceilings and viz. For me, never. However, if its necessary, you can fly the ILS to those minimums. So for me an older non-WAAS gps and a like-new INS-422 that I paid $250 for was the answer. For less than a grand I have full IFR capability in my Rocket, not including the autopilot which I think is absolutely mandatory for IFR in an RV. The prices aren't a fluke, ask anyone who knows me, I have a talent for getting good deals. :)
 
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INS-422 for $250???? wow!

Greetings Rocket Bob!

Where did you find the INS-422? The 422/429 looks very interesting to me.

I feel pretty uncomfortable buying avionics from eBay, so I try to stick to VAF. I've never had a bum deal here.

rocketbob said:
...and a like-new INS-422 that I paid $250 for was the answer.... I have a talent for getting good deals. :)
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:D
 
comfortcat said:
Greetings Rocket Bob!

Where did you find the INS-422? The 422/429 looks very interesting to me.

I feel pretty uncomfortable buying avionics from eBay, so I try to stick to VAF. I've never had a bum deal here.



:D
Click to expand...

ebay, had a display problem that took me 15 minutes to fix. Bad solder joint.
 
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