SteelMike

SteelMike

Well Known Member
Imagine if one had underestimated just how much one wanted to fly when one started his or her RV project, and one wanted to buy oneself a low-cost, entry level, first plane while they continued to build - being still fully committed to the build of course - what would one buy?

Assuming, of course, that the primary qualification of such a plane is that it flies (not that it's a screamer, or x-country monster, or anything fancy), the secondary qualification of which is that it's low-cost, and the tertiary qualification is that it can kept non-hangared...?

Ideas welcome!
 
You have to consider total cost of ownership (purchase price, maintenance, fuel burn). When you do that I think you'll find there is a "trough" in total cost centered somewhere on mid-1960's to mid-1970's all-metal aircraft, e.g. Cessna 150, Piper Cherokee, Grumman Traveler/Yankee. All are plentiful, reasonably priced if you look a little, and not generally subject to expensive ADs (or at this point, they are so old that the really killer expensive ones have been dealt with by a previous owner).

For example you can buy a mid-60's Cessna 150 for less than $20K. It won't complain if you tie it down out in the rain.
 
Many threads on this topic in the past, but to tell you the truth, I don't have a clue how to tell you to search for them! (Maybe search "Cessna", "Piper", "Luscombe", etc...)

My personal favorite was my old trusty steed, the Grumman Yankee - lots of Grumman "graduates" among the ranks of RV builder/owners.....

Paul
 
I previously built this one (http://adap.com/BF_JAN00_frontabove.jpg) which kept the flying skills up to speed while the RV was under construction. Landing and footwork required in this one made the RV a piece o' cake, but I had to had to shift my brain from 80 MPH to 200 MPH! The 60 year-old Continental A-65 eats about 4 - 5 GPH and a quart of oil every 15 hours, but I can't keep it outside!
 
ahhhh grasshoppa...

I would say if you wrote me a check for 17 grand, you would get a grumman yankee with wheel pants, a newly overhauled brake system(new o-rings and new tubing), fairly newly installed used transponder, new alt encoder, recently replaced VOR/GS/LOC indicator, longer seatbelts, fresh annual, fairly new vac pump, DC stereo intercom, 396 quickmount in panel with sale, canopy cover included although she is always hangered and quite nice paint. I'd also say that 6pgh and 110 mph cruise (or 128mph at RP1(full rental power 1)) :) is the perfect be-bop around airplane that is cheap to fly while you are building. I've got the rv-3 of my choice picked out in California... and that would let me go get it. A pic of her is at http://www.findasafetypilot.com/Info.php
She has Lyc 0-235 at 2250 hrs with 2 newer cylinders(same engine as a 152 so they are fairly cheap and plentiful). I fly her quite a bit and she flies with one finger. Swap engines to a 320 and you get a screamer. (I bought her for 19.. I've got about 24 in her... The RV-3 I want is 33k, so if you want to pay me more than 17k for the airplane then that would also be ok... I figure good karma goes a long way... so a 17,500 or more check would get a 500 donation to VAF
I work 5 days a week in West Palm and 2 days a week in Atlanta.. so I need an RV-3 yesterday.... ANY REASONABLE OFFER CONSIDERED!
Best
Brian Wallis

ps... yes she can be left outside as she is metal.
 
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Judging from your signature line, time and money are not factors for you. I envy you.

When I started my RV-8, I was the happy owner of a Grumman Yankee. What I found was that, when I was building on a nice day, I was feeling guilty that I had a plane just sitting in the hangar instead of being flown.

And, when I would go flying, I was feeling guilty that I wasn't home building my RV.

Therefore, I sold the Yankee.
 
Ditto what some others have said.

Grumman AA-1 (a, b or c)
Get one with an STC'd 160 hp O-320 in it if you want it to be closer to an RV-6A.
 
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I am also a member of the former Grumman owners club... I had an AA1B with an O-290-D2 (~135 HP) in it. What a fun little airplane. Anyone who can land a Grumman properly, will have no trouble with an A-model RV. You can also fly the Yankee in the summer with the canopy partially open, which you can't do with your RV! I wish I still had one to poke around in, they are fun airplanes... but the RV is better. ;)

mcb
 
Why not Rent?

For what you'll spend on buying, maintaining, insuring, and operating almost any airplane, you can rent a nicer one at your local FBO or flight school. And they really need your patronage!

For you, it sounds like this is just a bridge until you get the RV going. You can go fly almost whenever you want AND when you're done you can just walk away until next time.

Nothing slows down your building more than having to baby-sit a spamcan through an annual that takes a month.

my $0.02
 
ouch..

Previous post said...."Nothing slows down your building more than having to baby-sit a spamcan through an annual that takes a month.

my $0.02"


ouch!


Since I'm an IA.. I'll take you through the annual step by step and it will only take 2 full days (a weekend)
Jeff.. sounds like you need a new aircraft mechanic.... :)
 
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Sorry Brian -

Don't mean to interfere with your sale!:D
You're right, annuals don't usually take that long. But sometimes they do!

But my point is: take tie down fees, annuals, tire changes, insurance, fuel and oil, the busted alternator or vaccum pump that will come along, etc. and you're spending several thousand a year, no matter how you cut it. You can rent something at $100 per hour for 30-40 hours a year easy for what you'll pay to own something for a little while.

Don't worry - I don't practice what I preach, either.:rolleyes: I'd probably buy an airplane, too. That's just how we're wired.
 
Thanks, guys!

N8RV said:
Judging from your signature line, time and money are not factors for you. I envy you.
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Just wanted to address this line quickly: what can I say, I'm a DINK (dual income no kids)! I'm also a DINKHBoNC (Dual income, no kids, houses, boats, or new cars) for that matter, too! Haha!

Thanks for all the input, guys. I've heard bad things about the Grumman line of planes (but I can't exactly remember what those things are). Is that all just rumor and conjecture? Looks like you can pick up a Cheetah on the cheap, too, and it might be slightly more capable than the Yankee (where, oh where will I put my skis? This was the fourth capability requirement I left unmentioned. My RV will have a ski tube!).

Oh yeah, I'm terrified of the "hidden" costs of airplane ownership (unscheduled maintenance, recurring ADs, etc). How do the yankees/cheetahs do in this realm? By the way, my copy of the Illustrated Buyer's to Used Airplanes is in the mail so I'm not totally shooting from the hip...

Thanks again - you guys are the best.
 
Mike, I've had the same thoughts... Currently Im in a flying club that costs me $55/mo in dues and I can fly a cherokee 180 for $87/hr wet. I really dont think I can beat that cost in ownership. Plus, I really dont fly that much since all of my spare $ goes into the RV. Sad. Especially since I am within 25 hours of getting my commercial. :(
 
danielhv said:
Mike, I've had the same thoughts... Currently Im in a flying club that costs me $55/mo in dues and I can fly a cherokee 180 for $87/hr wet. I really dont think I can beat that cost in ownership. Plus, I really dont fly that much since all of my spare $ goes into the RV. Sad. Especially since I am within 25 hours of getting my commercial. :(
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I've noticed over the years that If I have to pay for something every time I do it (like rent a plane), I shy away from doing it at all. Better to save up and sink the cash up front, I find. That way, I feel like I have to get my use out of whatever it is. Plus, I happen to find that my enjoyment of the activity goes way up, too, regardless of the long term costs.

Just of the record, I 100% agree with you (everyone) that renting is probably cheaper.
 
SteelMike said:
I've noticed over the years that If I have to pay for something every time I do it (like rent a plane), I shy away from doing it at all. Better to save up and sink the cash up front, I find. That way, I feel like I have to get my use out of whatever it is. Plus, I happen to find that my enjoyment of the activity goes way up, too, regardless of the long term costs.

Just of the record, I 100% agree with you (everyone) that renting is probably cheaper.
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I understand where you're coming from. If I could get my dad to go in half on buying a plane, I'd do it. :( I even offered to get my cfi and teach him for free. He won't budge though.
 
JDRhodes said:
For what you'll spend on buying, maintaining, insuring, and operating almost any airplane, you can rent a nicer one at your local FBO or flight school. And they really need your patronage!
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...assuming you can rent practically. As far as I can tell the nearest rental aircraft is a 2 hour drive.

I am in the same boat. It has been 15 months since I have flown anything as PIC, and it is taking a tole on my morale.

We moved back in January. In our previous town the rental situation had been really bleak with access to a paint shedding C-150 for a while, then later a new FBO operator, and an IFR C-152.... then a new FBO operator just before we left that was awesome.

He put is personal warrior on the line, and it was a joy to fly. Now he has at least 2 aircraft on the line, and we moved away to an area where there are absolutely no options for rental.

It may slow my build down, but I am starting to think I need to get SOMETHING to fly.
 
SteelMike said:
Thanks for all the input, guys. I've heard bad things about the Grumman line of planes (but I can't exactly remember what those things are). Is that all just rumor and conjecture? Looks like you can pick up a Cheetah on the cheap, too, and it might be slightly more capable than the Yankee (where, oh where will I put my skis? This was the fourth capability requirement I left unmentioned. My RV will have a ski tube!).
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Bad things about Grummans? You probably haven't heard them from people who actually have FLOWN (and/or owned) them! You won't find any production airplanes that get as much out of an O-235 as a Yankee in terms of handling and performance - they are just plane fun. They land and take off a bit hotter than the average trainer, and thus require a bit more attention from the pilot, but that's not a bad thing. Excellent experience before moving up to an RV.

If you're looking for something to keep you in the air, a Yankee would be hard to beat. If you are serious about wanting something to travel and carry your skis in, you'll need more airplane, and now you are experiencing "requirements creep" that will eventually cost you much time and money that you might want to be spending on the RV project. The ideal situation is to have a friendly A&P/IA who can help you do much of your own maintenance, and keep you legal on inspections, whatever airplane you choose.

I agree with you on the intangibles of ownership - there is no way to justify it on a monetary basis, just as it is hard for most people to justify an RV that way. You either WANT and airplane, or you don't!

Paul
 
Sounds like the Yankee's are the way to go! Only bad thing about them that I have read so far, is the useful load is on the light side. (~500lbs IIRC) And they only hold 20 somthing gallons which limits you to about 3hr legs or less. All of which can be dealt with (except the useful load) Im a fat boy weighing in at 240lbs, 6'4". :( I'd never be able to take my dad, brother, or any other person except someone really light weight for a flight! :eek:

I'd be interested in seeing some actual present day ownership costs on one. I had a guy last year that sent me a spreadsheet of all the costs he incurred on a cessna 150, and how much it was per hour for various amounts of annual flight time. pretty neat.

22 gal useable 24 cap on the aa-1a's(note)
 
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cost

JDRhodes said:
Sorry Brian -

Don't mean to interfere with your sale!:D
You're right, annuals don't usually take that long. But sometimes they do!

But my point is: take tie down fees, annuals, tire changes, insurance, fuel and oil, the busted alternator or vaccum pump that will come along, etc. and you're spending several thousand a year, no matter how you cut it. You can rent something at $100 per hour for 30-40 hours a year easy for what you'll pay to own something for a little while.

Don't worry - I don't practice what I preach, either.:rolleyes: I'd probably buy an airplane, too. That's just how we're wired.
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As an airplane owner, the following is what I've found. At the start of my flying career, I was in rental aircraft as a non-knowing un-educated flight student. I thought I was getting a real deal by renting at the cheap prices an hour. It was rent and forget. I did not have access to the airplane 24-7 like I do with mine now. That did not matter at the time as I was still in high school mowing lawns for flying lessons. Later on as I transitioned to mechanic for a job choice I started learning that the flight schools usually do not have the same standards as a personally owned airplane does for maintenance. As a matter of fact, what I saw in the years to follow appalled me. I've seen some really scary stuff that the pilots who rented the spam cans were not aware of nor were they going to remove the cowl or inspection panels on a preflight. I've seen missing main spar rivets after an "annual", I've seen flight school owners have CFI's fly back a twin that had the nosegear collapse and not inspect the engines.. just threw props from the other seminole on and fly it back not even with safety wire on the props... I talked to the engine shop that did these engines and they are not sure how they did not have a catastrophic failure on the trip back. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I made up my mind never again to fly a rental unless I knew exactly what the mx was like at that business. So instead of spending 500 a month at a flight school for limited access and questionable mx.. this is what I do. (6k a year for a flight school vs 6k a year plus fuel for my own airplane is no contest)
10 yr note at 7% is 220 a month if you do a 10 yr loan.
my hanger is 100 a month or 50 a month for tiedown
insurance is 110 a month
mx is 110 a month as a budget.
Thats 550 a month without flying and about 300 a month after the plane is paid off.
I usually fly with somebody.. and they usually pay for gas.
So for about the same cost, I have my own personal airplane that is maintained to my standard instead of a flight schools standard. It's available to me 24-7 and I can do as I please. I'm not worried about the tach time or being on the clock or those 3-5 hr a day minimum charges if I want to go on vacation. I fly the same airplane all the time so I know the airplane inside and out. I'm not getting a strange airplane with unknown quirks.... Also if I wanted, I'm sure I could find a responsible person to split the cost in half so we could both go flying and log the time (standard rules apply about FAR/AIM rules).
So... for 550 a month by myself plus fuel or 250 a month plus half of the gas if I split the cost with somebody... I've got an airplane to fly where ever I want, when ever I want plus the storage of the hanger for other stuff. It's no contest for me. Now.. if I flew 10 hrs a year I would go get a rental for sure... If I were in the situation where I had to pay 300 and up for a hanger not to mention some of the other things going on like ramp fees being very high(I saw an FBO in LZU charge a citation that had diverted because of wx a rather large sum of money if I remember right for sitting on the ramp for 15 min), DISGUSTING!... I probably take another look at renting... How bout them apples....
Best
Brian
 
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I'd have bought an AA-1 a few years back if I was an inch shorter, couldn't get my knees under the panel. Test flight was a blast.

Short wings=fast and sporty handling kinda half way between 152 and a RV (maybe not quite half way but headed in the right direction anyway).

ONLY negetive is some people arn't up to the demands of it. Demo pilot warned that when you go to idle she comes DOWN. Probaby caught a few lesser pilots off guard and pranged a few planes when they didn't keep enough airspeed/energy to flare. Imagine a plane that actually requires a pilot to fly it rather than just ride along like a cessna!! Can you even imagine such a thing!!:D
 
yup..

The nose wheel is not connected to the pedals... so diff braking is used to steer the aircraft on the ground. It's like a halfway house for nose wheel pilots trying to get rid of the training wheel. The small wing likes high speeds and also a rather aggressive glide... not nearly as bad as a brick with Crisco on it but you need to be on your toes if you pull the engine all the way back. You do fly it like a big plane in the respect you keep power on until touchdown lest thine earth shall reach up and smack thine in the rear. I believe the 0-290 was probably the perfect engine for it... If I had my druthers.. I'd put a constant speed MT prop on it like on my friends tiger and a 290. She flies with one finger... I've seen so many "big cheese" pilots grip the yoke and try and man-handle her around the sky... usually what follows is a series of gyrations suited for a 70's movie with Mr Travolta. You can tell the experience level of a pilot by how hard they grip the stick. If we bend forwards... she will start a creep downwards... same for up. She will turn nicely with one finger on the yoke. I gave it to a CFI once and he could not land it for the first 3 tries because of over controlling. She is tame enough that one of my friends learned to fly in it though.. and the examiner was mighty impressed. If you have your "matter in a rectangular fashion", you will be fine...if you are the sunglasses wearing, manufacturer t-shirt wearing, blow hard, big ego guy that flies once a year.. she will take your lunch money and not give it back. I cannot tell you how many times I've been called "Experimental" by the tower controllers... I just say thanks for the compliment and keep on going. I feel the visibility in the Yankee is better than the RV-6 or 7 series. The RV's canopy is lower, the cowl is slightly different and of course the nosewheel strut on the yankee in my opinion is better designed.. the nosestrut does not have the same vibrational qualities as the RV A series. The S design keeps the nut from digging in and flipping the bird over onto her back. Do not spin her... and treat her like a lady.. and she will take very good care of you. The AA-1 was changed to the AA-1A because of the stall properties.. granted she is a slight bit slower than and AA-1, her stall characteristics are much better.
I bought her in 2005 I believe.. I've put about 300 hrs on her and I still get this big grin every time I go fly. Especially when I have my clarity aloft headset in and the XM music on.. It's like being in an IMAX!
If I did not have two jobs 650 miles apart, I would not be selling her. I need an RV-3 yesterday.
 
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brianwallis said:
The nose wheel is not connected to the pedals... so diff braking is used to steer the aircraft on the ground. It's like a halfway house for nose wheel pilots trying to get rid of the training wheel. The small wing likes high speeds and also a rather aggressive glide... not nearly as bad as a brick with Crisco on it but you need to be on your toes if you pull the engine all the way back. You do fly it like a big plane in the respect you keep power on until touchdown lest thine earth shall reach up and smack thine in the rear. I believe the 0-290 was probably the perfect engine for it... If I had my druthers.. I'd put a constant speed MT prop on it like on my friends tiger and a 290. She flies with one finger... I've seen so many "big cheese" pilots grip the yoke and try and man-handle her around the sky... usually what follows is a series of gyrations suited for a 70's movie with Mr Travolta. You can tell the experience level of a pilot by how hard they grip the stick. If we bend forwards... she will start a creep downwards... same for up. She will turn nicely with one finger on the yoke. I gave it to a CFI once and he could not land it for the first 3 tries because of over controlling. She is tame enough that one of my friends learned to fly in it though.. and the examiner was mighty impressed. If you have your "matter in a rectangular fashion", you will be fine...if you are the sunglasses wearing, manufacturer t-shirt wearing, blow hard, big ego guy that flies once a year.. she will take your lunch money and not give it back. I cannot tell you how many times I've been called "Experimental" by the tower controllers... I just say thanks for the compliment and keep on going. I feel the visibility in the Yankee is better than the RV-6 or 7 series. The RV's canopy is lower, the cowl is slightly different and of course the nosewheel strut on the yankee in my opinion is better designed.. the nosestrut does not have the same vibrational qualities as the RV A series. The S design keeps the nut from digging in and flipping the bird over onto her back. Do not spin her... and treat her like a lady.. and she will take very good care of you. The AA-1 was changed to the AA-1A because of the stall properties.. granted she is a slight bit slower than and AA-1, her stall characteristics are much better.
I bought her in 2006 I believe.. I've put about 300 hrs on her and I still get this big grin every time I go fly. Especially when I have my clarity aloft headset in and the XM music on.. It's like being in an IMAX!
If I did not have two jobs 650 miles apart, I would not be selling her. I need an RV-3 yesterday.
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I saw the one pic... got any more? Up close, panel, engine, interior, etc?
 
brianwallis said:
I bought her in 2006 I believe..
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Brian,
You bought her in 2005, about 2 or 3 months before I met you in November that year at the Mallards Landing fly-in.

Everyone else,
I spent a little over a year partnering with Brian in 41RC. He's right...she's quite a girl! If the money were there for me, he wouldn't need to find a buyer.
 
So, I'll put in a plug for the trusty C172 (and this is not entirely unbiased as you will see...). I bought a 172 two years ago to keep current and just get around. Not great at anything, but passable for most missions and plenty rugged. Reasonable useful load, easily handles two people (but certainly not 4 unless small people at sea level) plus plenty of luggage, fairly reasonable on fuel (I usually run 6-7 gph with my O-300).

Having said that, I love my 9A that got signed off last week and now have the 172 for sale for a reasonable price. PM me if this is of any interest.

greg
 
The C172 is certainly a trusty stead, no doubt, and is what i did all of my PP in and most of my instrument (although I never finished).

I have to tell you though, I'm kind of tired of them. I really don't like the way they have to be manhandled. They sure are rugged, which I will admit is pretty nice.
 
IFR

Honestly... since I am not an IFR pilot... although I've flown lots of IFR as PIC...(passenger in command) I would want an RV-9, an older 172 or cherokee with dual nav/com(sl-30's or a 430), new indicators, new static tubing, marker beacon indicator and a few other things... (backup vac source) if I were going to be going hard core IFR. I would not be flying my Yankee IFR. I think it's the perfect 4 state VFR be-bop machine. As badly as I want an RV... and I have to sell my yankee to get it... I cannot recommend it for hard core IFR. I've got to speak up for Moose... he was a fantastic partner. We flew in the yankee but we are both big boys and we did not fly together much. I'm trying to get my IFR ticket as we speak. As soon as I get my IFR and my fixed wing CFI add on, I'm going to get Moose through his PPL. Good Karma goes around and Moose is going to get his. I'm going to need a 172 for us though... the yankee was a bit tight.
REMEMBER... if someone buys my yankee for 17500(or more :) )... VAF gets a 500 dollar charity check!
 
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To get back to the topic...

The Yankee is a great option if you've got a hangar, but you said you wanted to keep it at home.

I went through the same mental exercise a year ago. At one point I got real excited about how cheap you can pick up a Piper Pacer, or better yet, a Colt with the taildrager conversion. But I kept coming back to the same problem -- hangar rent. Yes, you can leave a spam can on a tie-down, but it'll still cost $100/month and probably three times that in depreciation as your paint fades, your windows craze, and your instruments yellow.

I decided I wanted a Kitfox. I think it would be the perfect solution if you could find the right one cheap. It's sporty for a slow weekend flier, cheap to run, and you can trailer it fairly easily. But what I found was that good ones are in the $30's. I wound up buying a kit that was about ready to cover, and it turned out to be a lot farther from flying than I thought when I bought it. But I wanted one anyway, so what the heck. Now I've got two projects and still no plane.

If you go looking for a 'Fox, you'll probably want a Model IV or better (for 1200 lbs useful load), with a 912 or Jabiru, unless you like two-strokes. Check the wing tanks carefully. They're fiberglass and can't stand alchohol. A lot of KitFox guys use car gas, so lot of 'Fox tanks leak. You can replace them, but it's a bear.
 
I got so inclined this summer

I was in the same situation as the OP, and I ended up selecting a modest 2 seat trainer (Beech Skipper) this July. Purchase price with a 2 day assisted annual (by me) was less than you will spend on an engine.

I was originally looking at 4 seat faster aircaft, but in the end my reasoning was that a low performance aircraft would keep me motivated to build.

So far, so good. Still building (but a bit slower) and now flying a lot. I feel more proficient, and am much happier.

The key for me is controlling the maintenance cost. I'm lucky to have a friend (A&P, IA, DER) who is interested in helping me for fun and love of aviation. That makes all the difference. So far I've had a failed vacuum pump, a voltage regulator adjustment, nose gear shimmy damper & bushings, a main landing gear leg attachment problem :eek:, and an oil change. I've been able to do all the work myself, supervised by my friend, for parts only. At the next annual I have an AD to contend with on all the circuit breaker switches (about $700 in parts) and I'll probably put a new interior and maybe some minor avionics changes.

The landing gear problem alone would have cost me 50% of the aircraft value to fix at a "retail" shop, especially the ones around here. It is incredible what they get for simple tasks.

So my advice is come up with a maintenance strategy and then select an aircraft. If you can do the work yourself somehow, that is best because it allows you to become "one" with your plane, and also benefits the RV construction process. More advice: buy a simple airplane and get all the maintenance publications.

I like the Skipper a lot... it's slow, but flys great (pushrod ailerons) and is unique enough that I get a lot of comments. It's really roomy inside (equal or maybe wider than a 172) and the visibility is great. Handles crosswinds great and has really good heat. Now if I could just get it out of the white arc....

BTW - I did look at the Grummans, but decided that for me they weren't right (didn't like the fast wing, lots of "weird" ones out there).
 
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I ended up buying a

1946 Chief. I was building a -4 while single and ended up getting married. We decided to build a house so I sold the four and took some other money and picked up the Chief.(time) We have property up here on an airstrip, the parking rights came with the lot. The first two years I flew it I was burning sump gas from DC-6's that were in for various wing root x-ray inspections. I taught my friend and neighbor to fly and he picked up a chief before he was sighed off to solo! We went in together and bought 300 gal. 100LL before the snow piled up to high. No insurance, no tie down, I do all the maintenance. Just fuel, oil and parts. So between the two of us we always have an airplane to fly. My hang up now is no skis. I'm thinking about a 3 or a 7 again, I'll keep the chief to fly until I have an engine built up and all the other stuff. Sell it to buy a kit? or save it for ice fishing?
 
jonbakerok said:
Yes, you can leave a spam can on a tie-down, but it'll still cost $100/month and probably three times that in depreciation as your paint fades, your windows craze, and your instruments yellow.
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This seems to come up routinely. No offense, of course, but I wonder if this is kind of a knee-jerk reaction. I don't get it: I leave my car outside all day long in the sun each and every day, and it's paint never fades, the windows don't craze, and the instrument panel doesn't yellow. I treat my car like garbage, and it treats me just fine. If I had a plane on tie-down, I'd at least put a canopy cover on her.

For a while I really wanted to buy a citabria, but I didn't (don't) want to pay the $500-odd dollars for hangar rent per month. I asked around, and all the old-timers said that even with the fabric wings, I could put her out in the southern california sun. I'd usually say something like, "you mean with wing covers, right"? to which they'd reply, "wing covers?".

What's the real scoop on hangars, anyway?
 
SteelMike said:
What's the real scoop on hangars, anyway?
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Well, it's hard to compare airplanes and cars, because cars are built like tanks when you compare them! Weight is not an issue, plus they've gazillions of them, so they have perfected the paint....I remember many years ago when a car left outside would be pretty well trashed after a few years.

When I bought my Yankee many years ago, it was 9 years old, and living out on the line at a flight school. Had been rode hard and put away wet way too many times. A flying "Rent-A-Wreck" - airworthy, but terribly abused. the paint was chalky yellow. I left it outside for about a year and a half (with a canopy cover) before i got the chance to move it inside. It would have survived outside, but it wouldn't have ever been more tan it was.

Moving it inside gave me a place to work on it, as well as keep my tools and supplies - plus I had electricity to work with. Over the years, I resurrected the airplane completely, and actually won some awards with it. But if all I had wanted was something to knock around with while working on another project, it would have survived outside - but been worth a lot less when I was ready to sell it.

If you are buying a plane that is already near the bottom of the market value, then leaving it outside will work. Maintenance costs will be higher! But if it's the only way to afford flying? Well, we do what we have to do....and besides, it's just a spam can!;)

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
If you are buying a plane that is already near the bottom of the market value, then leaving it outside will work. Maintenance costs will be higher! But if it's the only way to afford flying? Well, we do what we have to do....and besides, it's just a spam can!;)
Paul
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This is kind of the assumption I'm working on. I'm going to be buying a plane at the bottom of the market which will - in all likelihood - already have faded paint, so what's the difference? Curious: why would maintenance cost necessarily be higher? Other than the paint and the canopy, especially given our mild weather (and never any hail) here in Southern California, I wonder how the outside environment would negatively affect the other maintenance items.

Here's why it matters: I figure that I can own the plane outside for about $400 per month (just the note, insurance, and tie-down, not counting reserves, maintenance, and fuel). Inside? $900/month. And that's assuming I can find a hangar to put it in (2 year waitlists!). The hangar rent costs more than the plane itself and more than doubles the cost of ownership!
 
SteelMike said:
Other than the paint and the canopy, especially given our mild weather (and never any hail) here in Southern California, I wonder how the outside environment would negatively affect the other maintenance items.
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You're right that it really depends on your climate, and in the right one, outside is not a big deal. But I have seen a lot of airplanes corrode away due to salt air - or chemical-laden air near industrial pollution sites. Tires don't like sun, the wind can take it's toll on control hinges and links. Most of these thigns can be dealt with if you prepare the airplane properly, and the best thing you can do is fly regularly!

Paul
 
Cars and Planes

SteelMike said:
I don't get it: I leave my car outside all day long in the sun each and every day, and it's paint never fades, the windows don't craze, and the instrument panel doesn't yellow. ?
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The average spam can has a paint job that would make an Earl Shieb $100 special look like artwork. If your car had that paint, plus plastic windows, 30 year-old instruments, and probably vinyl seats, you wouldn't want to leave it out doors either.

I'll admit, it doesn't physically damage the airframe to leave it out (provided you fly it enough to keep the critters out), but my point is that you're probably losing the equivalent of hangar rent every month in depreciation.

Airplanes aren't like cars. Take care of them and they INCREASE in value over time. Neglect them, and they lose value rapidly, because it's hard to find a buyer for a plane that looks bad. Even if can convince the buyer it's just cosmetic, he has to convince his wife that your ugly plane won't fall out of the sky.
 
Thanks for the help, guys. I've been doing a lot of research over the last week or so, and it looks like a Cheetah is in my future (I hope). This assumes that I can find one that I like and - more importantly - can pull together my cajones to sign up for the responsibility (see signature line below).

If anyone has good knowledge of the 72-77ish grumman traveler/cheetah line, and in particular their re-occuring ADs, maintenance issues, and what to look for when buying (or what not to look for), please PM me if you're willing to help. I'm aware of the original prop issues (re-occuring AD and RPM limitations), "purple glue", aileron inspections, and front wheel strut issues (sound familiar?). What else should I be aware of?

Thanks again,

MB
 
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