[madhun]

I'd like salt and pepper with this can of worms. What is your preferred panel & why?

Well the title pretty much says it all.

The Dynon Skyview looks like it will be a very scalable unit and in the time frame it will take me to get a Rocket project underway will probably have a majority of the features listed as Work in Progress (WIP) completed.

I'm also going to need a bib if I keep reading the Vertical Power site, that is a pretty astonishing bit of kit.

Both look to be amazing value for money.

In your experience would you say these were quality products and reputable companies, and if not why and what would you recommend as it's replacement.

Would I be correct in suggesting that all one would need on the panel is back up gauges and comms hardware and transponder if there was a 10" upfront with a vp200 DUO and a 7" sky view for the passenger?

Seems to me the aircraft would almost fly itself with this hardware.

I'm a big fan of redundancy, especially when my and potentially one others life depends on it.

 

[SMO]

My panel

Here is a shot of my Rocket Panel. I too like redundancy, so two nav/coms, two GPS's, and two AI's (one in the EFIS and the ADI). The switches on the left are only for when the VP200 goes TU, I can still get my ADI, Fuel Pump, EFIS, and 430. If I lose all electrics the ADI and 696 have their own battery power.

I'm using the VP switch panel for Landing Light, Pitot Heat, and Autopilot (servos).

The switches on the right are only used if I lose the 430, one changes the GPS source from the 430 to the 696 and the other changes the Nav source from the 430 to the SL30.

The one downside I have is the AP and EFIS are combined - if I lose the EFIS I likely also lose the AP. Of course I could have put a backup (or the sole) AP in place of the ADI but I gotta quit spending money somewhere!

I haven't flown behind this so I can't provide any "real life" feedback on it.

 

[madhun]

I wouldn't be too concerned with the AP going down, nor the GPS, nor the efis, provided I still have the capacity and ability to fly home. But it's nice to have some built in redundancy on critical monitoring equipment and especially on anything that will be controlling device switching.

Does the VP200 Duo need a gps feed just to ensure it's operation or is there another function?

 

[rleffler]

I wouldn't be too concerned with the AP going down, nor the GPS, nor the efis, provided I still have the capacity and ability to fly home. But it's nice to have some built in redundancy on critical monitoring equipment and especially on anything that will be controlling device switching.

Does the VP200 Duo need a gps feed just to ensure it's operation or is there another function?

Since your first post talked about front and back, I assume you're building an RV-8. You may want to take a look at Matt Draille's RV-8. He used GRT, but also a VP-200.

The VP uses a variety of input data to determine the mode of flight to assist with some of the automation.

I'm just curious why you are going with the Duo? Are going with two EI? The reason I ask, is for a long time I thought I needed to do the same to design a high availabilty solution. Through numerous conversations with Marc and others, I was able to design a very solid solution with backups with a single CU. That saves some weight and about $3k.

 

[SMO]

GPS for VP200

As I understand this, the GPS feed is not absolutely required for many of the VP200 functions. What it does do is control things like restrict flap lowering above certain speeds, automatic changing of modes from preflight to takeoff when a certain speed is reached, changing from cruise mode to landing, etc.

You can change modes manually but that overrides one of the most interesting features of this system.

Note that you can also use air data - I believe this is not fully enabled yet but will be later this year - instead of GPS for these features. You would need a device that can provide the air data feed, however, and I don't know if the Skyview would do that. I know the GRT stuff does integrate properly - I am using a GRT EIS and will be upgrading it to provide air data as I am not comfortable using GPS groundspeed to control flaps (you do need an appropriate EIS to provide the engine instrumentation feed).

I also found the single VP200 to be enough to do all the things I want to do with this, I don't need the duo.

 

[madhun]

Since your first post talked about front and back, I assume you're building an RV-8. You may want to take a look at Matt Draille's RV-8. He used GRT, but also a VP-200.

The VP uses a variety of input data to determine the mode of flight to assist with some of the automation.

I'm just curious why you are going with the Duo? Are going with two EI? The reason I ask, is for a long time I thought I needed to do the same to design a high availabilty solution. Through numerous conversations with Marc and others, I was able to design a very solid solution with backups with a single CU. That saves some weight and about $3k.

Hi Bob,

I tapped out a reply to yours earlier this morning but must have missed the send button before shutting it all down.

I am still coming to terms with all the acronyms around here. Does EI translate to electronic ignition or engine instruments?

I am in the early phase of planning a Rocket build. With the exception of the interior and exterior decoration I reckon this is the only place with a relative degree of flexibility, and I want to make sure I get it right.

There was another section of the VP site I browsed over today which made me wonder also whether I need the second unit, the additional redundancy would be nice and I wouldn't mind the rear passenger having access to all the switches in the event the business end didn't want to play the game. 3 Gorillas for the peace of mind is probably well spent.

Does the 200 single have dual circuits internally; I recall reading that today bit can't find it now.

 

[frankh]

Before we get too carried away

I assume we are talking about flying in IMC here right?

For VFR flying the only thing required is an ASI, altimeter and be able to look out the window.

Talk of "Lives depending" on the panel hardware is nonsnsicle in the VFR environment.

Frank

 

[rleffler]

I am still coming to terms with all the acronyms around here. Does EI translate to electronic ignition or engine instruments?

Electronic Ignition

I am in the early phase of planning a Rocket build. With the exception of the interior and exterior decoration I reckon this is the only place with a relative degree of flexibility, and I want to make sure I get it right.

There was another section of the VP site I browsed over today which made me wonder also whether I need the second unit, the additional redundancy would be nice and I wouldn't mind the rear passenger having access to all the switches in the event the business end didn't want to play the game. 3 Gorillas for the peace of mind is probably well spent.

Two CUs will give you two completely independent buses (plus a third backup bus) . Do you need two independent buses, or do you need a primary bus and a back (endurance) bus? Once I came to the conclusion that I needed the later, it took $3k out of the price.

Having dual switches for electrical functions in the rear will make things extremely complex, if not impossible, from a design perspective. The VP-X may give you more options if you also have an EFIS in the rear.

Does the 200 single have dual circuits internally; I recall reading that today bit can't find it now.

You get two independent buses by using two different control units (CU). A single CU does support a back up circuit or endurance bus. There are multiple ways of accomplishing this goal and all are documented in the installation manuals.

I would give Marc Ausman a call. He usually is more than willing to talk with folks to educate them on his products. He will also share his opinion on what best practices may be for a given situation.

bob

 

[madhun]

Thanks Bob, (Mark & Frank also)

We are talking IMC Frank. Things will go wrong at the worst possible time.

Plenty of reading to do. An electrician or electrical engineer I most certainly am not, and I've got to be honest I'm not entirely sure what I need at this stage; but I'm sure with the help of vendors and others including VAF members this can be overcome.

Prior to finding this site I had never heard of VP so this is new to me (if that wasn't already plainly evident).

The switches I was referring to in the back were CP stick switches.

Is it not possible to slave a second DU of the second control box DU output?

 

[videobobk]

There is just so much to consider here. IFR is quite a bit different from VFR (OK, that should be obvious) but there are still incompatibilities that may not be obvious. Having an autopilot is almost a necessity for IFR, and pretty nice VFR. Some IFISs are picky on what they will drive. If you choose a Trio autopilot, you may find it better to go with a GRT EFIS than some of the others. You will find several schools of thought on whether you should stick with one company, or mix brands if using glass to backup glass.

Your comfort level is important. Most of us here will have to admit to a certain amount of bias based on our own experiences. I think about the only IFR device almost everyone agrees on is the 430W is a key piece of equipment. I suggest a couple of things; don't just look at the ads and specs--go to Oshkosh and talk to the manufacturers. And be sure to talk to someone who knows ALL the units, and what they can do for you. Panel builders are incredibly helpful. A guy named Stein comes to mind...

Bob Kelly

 

[breister]

Yep - there is no "right" answer. Let the mission dictate your choices, and think about the airplane as an entire system rather than individual parts. Some pieces of equipment compliment each other - there is really no need to have 4-fold redundancy.

If money were no object, I'd likely have a full Garmin 1000 suite and it would be attached to a restored Phantom. But to most of us, money is harder to come by.

 

[rleffler]

The switches I was referring to in the back were CP stick switches.

The switches on the stick are not an issue. Actually, the VP-200 can disable/enable the passenger stick as needed.

Is it not possible to slave a second DU of the second control box DU output?

No, there is no way to use a second DU. For independent buses, you use two CUs and one DU. The only way that I can think of doing is to use the VP-X and display on another EFIS. I'm not even sure the VP-X supports two EFIS displays.

My recommendation are:

• Read the install manuals, they are a great source of information
• Call VP - Marc and company are more than happy to discuss their products and your installation
• Read the postings at the VP forums - there generally aren't many new questions, just new to you. Again another great source to learn from others.

About 1.5 years ago, Paul Dye wrote a great article in the RVator about determing you mission and selecting appropriate devices to meet the mission. A slightly longer version can be also found here. It's a good read, especially for somebody at your stage.

My power circuit schematic for the VP-200 can be found here. I have an endurance bus that supports the ignition and other essential equipment. You don't need to have a second CU to build a reliable solution with a second battery and alternator as a backup.

Since you're builing an RV-8 and want to drool, check out Matt's build site. You can't get any more gear in a RV-8 than Matt.

bob

 

[madhun]

There is just so much to consider here. IFR is quite a bit different from VFR (OK, that should be obvious) but there are still incompatibilities that may not be obvious. Having an autopilot is almost a necessity for IFR, and pretty nice VFR. Some IFISs are picky on what they will drive. If you choose a Trio autopilot, you may find it better to go with a GRT EFIS than some of the others. You will find several schools of thought on whether you should stick with one company, or mix brands if using glass to backup glass.

Your comfort level is important. Most of us here will have to admit to a certain amount of bias based on our own experiences. I think about the only IFR device almost everyone agrees on is the 430W is a key piece of equipment. I suggest a couple of things; don't just look at the ads and specs--go to Oshkosh and talk to the manufacturers. And be sure to talk to someone who knows ALL the units, and what they can do for you. Panel builders are incredibly helpful. A guy named Stein comes to mind...

Bob Kelly

Thanks Bob,

I am hoping to make the trek next year for my Dad's 70th, Oshkosh is a 24hr flight away, sadly I can't just pop over.

I was thinking a panel builder is the way to go and having seen the back side of a Stein panel am quite happy with the neat and professional looking jobs they've done.

My father built a Bushby MII so I have all the tools at my disposal, a wealth of knowledge and experience and space and hangerage is not an issue.

I really like the improvement in situational awareness the VP would afford especially with the addition of modes in the 200. Ideally if the VPX was able to provide these I'd get by with EFIS front and back with appropriate inputs.

I'm both thankful and happy for the suggestions, I'm fairly confident that I only want to have my finances extracted from multiple orifices once in this process, so pretty keen to get it right.

 

[madhun]

The switches on the stick are not an issue. Actually, the VP-200 can disable/enable the passenger stick as needed.



No, there is no way to use a second DU. For independent buses, you use two CUs and one DU. The only way that I can think of doing is to use the VP-X and display on another EFIS. I'm not even sure the VP-X supports two EFIS displays.

My recommendation are:

• Read the install manuals, they are a great source of information
• Call VP - Marc and company are more than happy to discuss their products and your installation
• Read the postings at the VP forums - there generally aren't many new questions, just new to you. Again another great source to learn from others.

About 1.5 years ago, Paul Dye wrote a great article in the RVator about determing you mission and selecting appropriate devices to meet the mission. A slightly longer version can be also found here. It's a good read, especially for somebody at your stage.

My power circuit schematic for the VP-200 can be found here. I have an endurance bus that supports the ignition and other essential equipment. You don't need to have a second CU to build a reliable solution with a second battery and alternator as a backup.

Since you're builing an RV-8 and want to drool, check out Matt's build site. You can't get any more gear in a RV-8 than Matt.

bob

Thanks for the links Bob,

I checked out Matt's panel and had a poke around the site. At present ploughing through the 200 page manuals is not really an option, but present time constraints will abate in due course and I can get studying.

 

[rleffler]

Thanks for the links Bob,

I checked out Matt's panel and had a poke around the site. At present ploughing through the 200 page manuals is not really an option, but present time constraints will abate in due course and I can get studying.

Unfortunately, it's a necessary evil. I was unemployed for awhile this past year and had some extra time. Even then, it took several months of reading documentation, talking with vendors and other builders, and finally documenting my design.

It is very tedious and takes awhile, but the advantage is the documentation you will have and the knowledge you learn during the process.

If money is no object, time can be shorten by sending your business to great vendors like SteinAir or Aerotronics.

bob

 

[madhun]

Unfortunately, it's a necessary evil. I was unemployed for awhile this past year and had some extra time. Even then, it took several months of reading documentation, talking with vendors and other builders, and finally documenting my design.

It is very tedious and takes awhile, but the advantage is the documentation you will have and the knowledge you learn during the process.

If money is no object, time can be shorten by sending your business to great vendors like SteinAir or Aerotronics.

bob

Thanks Bob,

Whilst not made of money the decision to proceed won't be dictated by the need to save it here or there. Naturally I don't need to waste any either but provided the job gets done I'm a happy man.

I managed to get most of the way through the VP200 user guide yesterday which seems to be pretty adequately summarised in the video on the site.

Also managed to get most of the way through the Skyview user guide also.

I had actually started to compile a mental picture of what I wanted in the panel, and also know what I expect to be able to do with the Rocket. Hi speed mostly VFR but IFR capable touring aircraft, with the ability to tip her on it's lid when desired. I live in an area where there is much to do an see. My home airport is class D airspace and I regularly traverse Class C airspace and pop into the odd CTAF here and there.

I had assumed, being solid state, it would have been possible to have a second VP200 DU to operate the solid state switches and CB's but at the end of the day if the rear seat passenger can't drive all the systems it's really only going to be an issue if I was totally incapacitated.

Is anyone experiencing QC issues with either the VP or Dynon products? Are the after sales service of both companies of a high standard?

Thanks for all the input.

Regards,

Quentin

 

[rleffler]

Is anyone experiencing QC issues with either the VP or Dynon products? Are the after sales service of both companies of a high standard?

I'm not aware of anyone that has experienced a QC problem with VP. Support is nothing but outstanding. Marc and team are always willing to respond via telephone, email, and on their support forum.

While I have not experience support levels directly myself with Dynon, I have not heard any negatives either. My only advice is to not bet on the future. The Skyview product looks to be a great product once all the proposed features are released. I don't think it's ready for IFR until those features are there. If you have a year of build time before you have to purchase your EFIS, you'll have a better idea on how Dynon delivers on their promises.

Also, in my opinion, I prefer an autopilot that isn't integrated into the EFIS and by another vendor than the EFIS for IFR. There is no right answer here. I just don't want an EFIS failure (either hardware or software) to take out the AP.

bob

 

[madhun]

Also, in my opinion, I prefer an autopilot that isn't integrated into the EFIS and by another vendor than the EFIS for IFR. There is no right answer here. I just don't want an EFIS failure (either hardware or software) to take out the AP.

bob

That does make a lot of sense.

So would you disable the EFIS in the Skyview and add an AP system from say TruTrak et al?

 

[rleffler]

That does make a lot of sense.

So would you disable the EFIS in the Skyview and add an AP system from say TruTrak et al?

If I choose the Skyview as an EFIS, I would choose an AP from Trutrak. I am not up to speed on the ARNIC integration with the Skyview and third party APs. I would talk to Lucas at Trutrak or post on their forum.

The DGII VSGV is a good choice today and the Gemini 880 looks like it may be a good choice in about a year. You can install your servos during the build and purchase the AP head just before you fly. (Actually holding off until about six months before flying on the EFIS is a good idea too). I like the minature EFIS on the Gemini 880 as an additional backup to my other two installed EFIS. It then becomes a tie breaker if my main two efis are displaying different values.

If your efis goes south, the AP can keep your wings level and buys you time to develop a plan on how to proceed. With an integrated AP, I would be concerned if there are any scenarios in which could take out both the efis and AP.

Using different vendors for back up devices improves the odds that a software bug can't take down the entire system.