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Pilottonny

Well Known Member
It is not in the drawings, has anybody else made the same mistake? Read on!

I have finished the fuselage for 95% and started on the wiring, installing AP-servo, Strobe power supply, etc. I am running my wires, pitot- and static tube, etc. behind the CAD- side panels, so I installed the F-704K upright cap strips on both sides, because the wires run in front of them. I know, there is 3 skin-rivets on each side, that will be riveted later and can?t be bucked anymore, but since Van?s told me every solid rivet may be replaced by a pulled rivet and you would need a specially made bucking bar for these rivets anyway, I figured I would put some pullet rivets in there, anyway.

But today, when I browsed through the drawings that came with my finishing kit, I noticed that the roll-over-protection-bar is fixed with 4 bolts, 2 of them being installed behind the upright cap strip!! (slider canopy!) Obviously I do not have access anymore!

I checked all the drawings but did not find any mention of these cap strips to be left off till later (if installing a slider canopy) at all!

Has anybody ales made this same mistake? And how did you correct it (drill out the 72 LP4-4 rivets? , or make a hole in the cap strip to install the spacer and nut?)

Any input would be appreciated.

Regards, Tonny.
 
been there, done that

I made the same mistake. It was easy to drill out those rivets.

Jason
 
I am pretty sure I can picture your predicament. Those roll bar nuts are hard to get to even with the caps off. IIRC.
I say drill 'em out. Be careful and get some sharp bits. You will be glad you did since there is no other viable alternative.
Of course I don't have the drawings in front of me so I could be wrong.
 
A major mistake is something like having to remove a wing skin. This is just a distraction and some precious time. Me, I just hooked up my flap sensor wrong and burned up the rheostat. That lesson cost me less than a tank of gas for my vehicle.
 
I made essentially the same stupid mistake on my RV-8, and it was the manufacturer's fault (i.e. me). I had already drilled the holes for the roll bar, and knew that I would need to bolt it in place later. Fortunately I noticed the roll bar holes after riveting one F-804K, and realized that I had just painted myself in a corner, so I only had one side to drill out.

If this is the biggest mistake you make on the project, you'll be doing better than many builders.

Cheer up. This is an easy mistake to fix.
 
This is not a mistake made by Van's. His instructions clearly say to read and study the assembly instructions and to study the drawings before starting the project and to read ahead while assembling the plane. This would have kept you from boxing yourself in.
 
Drill the pulled rivets out, they already have a pilot hole for the drill :D Getting the spacer and nut on the roll bar mounting bolt is one of the more tedious tasks. My rollbar is mounted but still have not done the cap strip.

Steve Eberhart
RV-7A Slider, finishing up the firewall forward tasks. O-360-A1A, Catto three blade.
 
No mention about this untill you get to the finish kit!

Norman, I did read the manual and studied the plans, but it is only when you get your finish kit, that you notice these bolts on the finish-drawings. They are not shown in the fuselage drawings and the fuselage drawings show the cap strip installed in more than one case. I do believe a simple remark on the drawing would have helped a lot of builders to prevent this mistake. There is a lot of remarks on the drawings for pretty obvious things sometimes. But anyway, I guess I will have to order a bunch of LP4-4?s and some long drill bits.

I just cleco?d the firewall on to rivet it, when I noticed the problem. I am glad I left the firewall off so long, to install all the fuel-, vent-, brake lines, fuel pump, rudder pedals etc. I can take it off again and still have good access from the front for the drilling, at least that makes it a little easier.
 
Published Tips and techniques? (Not the RVator)

Has anyone ever gone through the building instructions and provided comments for each page? With so many RV's having been built... and reading so many random "don't do that"... or "make sure you do this first" posted at various times here... you'd hope that someone would compile them in order for each model. The "27 years of the RVator" has a lot of tips and techniques... and this site can't be beat. But what is really needed is a reference that you can turn to with each step. Sort of like a builder assist program in writing... with pictures! I bet that would cut down a LOT of build time. Think of all that time spent trying to figure out how to do something... or undoing a mistake... :eek:

DJ
 
Phyrcooler said:
But what is really needed is a reference that you can turn to with each step. Sort of like a builder assist program in writing... with pictures!

DJ
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I'll go out on a limb here and say this is the responsibility of the kit supplier. Vans has a reputation for great kits, but I think many people would say they're also well known for their less than adequate plans. Other kit manufacturers seems to have figured this out years ago. I've seen excerpts from the RV-10 plans and those look much better than Vans traditional list of suggested building steps.

I've seen some people say that these guys are engineers and aren't really into the details such as providing good plans. That's a great excuse, but not very helpful. I think that's just one more reason I chose to give up on the RV-3B. Those plans are terrible, compared to other kits.

I'm sure some will argue that you need to have a good idea of what you're doing to build an airplane. I agree, but that knowledge has to be gained somewhere, why not from the best people to provide that information, the kit manufacturer.

I hope the plans for the RV-12 are more in line with other kit manufacturers because this kit is likely to interest people that are very new to this type of activity.

Ken
 
Phyrcooler said:
Has anyone ever gone through the building instructions and provided comments for each page? With so many RV's having been built... and reading so many random "don't do that"... or "make sure you do this first" posted at various times here... you'd hope that someone would compile them in order for each model. The "27 years of the RVator" has a lot of tips and techniques... and this site can't be beat. But what is really needed is a reference that you can turn to with each step. Sort of like a builder assist program in writing... with pictures! I bet that would cut down a LOT of build time. Think of all that time spent trying to figure out how to do something... or undoing a mistake... :eek:

DJ
Click to expand...

In the "old days" for the "6" models, we had printable step by step guides from Frank Justice, that provided much needed help along the way.

With today's internet sources, and so many builder websites such as Dan Checkoway's; it seems rather easy to get a lot of questions resolved.

Personally, I never called Van's for any builder questions. I could always find the answers on the net. Even if it was from someone who already had called Van's! :D

L.Adamson
 
The pre-view drawings show the roll-over bar assembly. Drawing number 42.
I just thought that everyone got the pre-view plans before building. My mistake, sorry.
 
I think it would be nice and fairly easy to have an "errata" list published on the van's site. For example, I had a v/s nose rib marked h/s on the sticker and it was after hours at van's. An errata list would save them a lot of repeat calls.
 
woxofswa said:
I think it would be nice and fairly easy to have an "errata" list published on the van's site. For example, I had a v/s nose rib marked h/s on the sticker and it was after hours at van's. An errata list would save them a lot of repeat calls.
Click to expand...
That would be what sites like this one are for, is it not?
 
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Roll bar on permanently now?

Installed the Roll-bar and roll bar-brace today. Drilling out the 72 LP4-4?s and undoing all the wiring that runs in front of it, took about 4 hrs. Still have to order 72 new LP4-4?s from Vans (approx. $ 20,- incl. shipping), install them and redo the wiring. So I guess it will be a day?s work, total.

Some of you mentioned that getting the nuts and washers on the bolts for the roll bar was quite difficult, so I glued the nuts, washers, and spacers together before installing them, which made it a breeze.

Important question: Now that I installed the roll bar, does it need to come off again at any stage? (for painting?, or installing the panel?) or can I rivet the side caps on permanently now?

Regards, Tonny
 
Slider -- yes.

If you're building a sliding canopy, you'll need the roll bar out of the way to rivet on the forward fuselage top skin.

-rob
 
Not really

"If you're building a sliding canopy, you'll need the roll bar out of the way to rivet on the forward fuselage top skin."

You'll just need some creative but simple thin bucking bars.

Steve
 
Pulled rivets !

I guess what you mean to say is: you want the roll bar bolts and nuts out of the way for bucking these rivets, correct?

I am going to use pulled rivets in that area, a lot easier than trying to fabricate a special bucking bar to get in there. Vans told me that any rivet in the RV may be replaced by a pulled rivet! It just ads weight and cost. Well..... I am not going to worry about the cost and additional weight of these 8 or 10 pulled rivets.

Regards, Tonny.

PS: I actually got a "congratulations" email from Doug today! (it's my birthday) Isn't he a nice guy!?
 
With all the yipping about Van's poor plans(and I have seen many other sets of plans that are not near as good), it makes me wonder why so many of his planes have been successfully built and are flying.
 
Support?

I'll take a stab at this. Not that my opinion is worth much since I'm not a builder anymore or an RV owner.

I think very few people (if any) would disagree that an RV is a great flying aircraft. I think that's the main reason they are so popular.

So why are there so many flying examples considering the "poor plans"? I think it's the support. Years ago I think Vans made up for the poor plans by providing good support, mostly by phone. I remember in the early nineties when I was working on an RV-4, I could call the tech line and get great answers, usually followed by a plans revision in the next RVator.

Having said that, I don't think that's true anymore. When working on my last project, when calling the tech line, I would usually get the attitude of "Not this question again." Other responses were so vague I couldn't tell if they really had an answer or were being deliberately vague for CYA purposes.
If they kept getting the same questions, shouldn't that have been an indicator that the plans probably needed a little attention?

So why are they still popular? The plans have improved (i.e. RV10). The other reason I believe is that sites like this have replaced the support that Van's used to provide. That's good and bad. It's good because there is plenty of help around the clock. It's bad because sometimes there is too much help. Meaning that some of the help is conflicting.

The bottom line is that RV's have reached critical mass (ex navy nuc pun).

Another question that could be asked is if the plans were top notch, how many more RV's would be flying or how many would have been finished by the first builder instead of the 2nd, 3rd, etc.?
 
Another question that could be asked is if the plans were top notch, how many more RV's would be flying or how many would have been finished by the first builder instead of the 2nd, 3rd, etc.?
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I suspect the perceived quality of the plans, whether good or bad, has practically no impact on whether or not an RV project is abandoned.

I've seen projects orphaned, and in each case there were much more significant issues in play than the plans.
 
Point taken Sam. I think with any project if there are positives to offset the negatives it will work out OK. In my case, every time there was an issue with the plans or I mis-interpreted them (it's true, it wasn't always the plans fault), it was just another reminder of how little time I had to work on the project and I had just wasted a big chunk of it. After that happens several times the project becomes a burden.
 
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