[Calvin25]

I?m not feeling good about the quality of my work so far.

I have been completing tasks on the project and then looking back to only say to myself that,

?If I had another shot at that part it would come out so much better!?

Then I look at the edge distances and alignments and ask myself

?What would happen if this developed a crack here??

?Will I feel good about taking people I love up in this aircraft??

?Can I be confident in my work enough to push the G limits as I?
dream to do??

?You?re not going to build a perfect airplane?

?You will strap 80k + in additional parts to this plane what?s a couple hundred for
new parts from Vans??

As you can see I?m sorting things out in my head and believe most of us go through this in the beginning.

Hardest part for me so far is learning where to draw the line.

I took a few days off and I?m coming back to it this weekend. I am going to post photos of the items I?m not happy with, let me know what you think. I work to a high standard but seem to be off beat on this, my plan is to shell out for $300 or so in new parts and slow way down. I never built a plane before


First picture is a terable looking HS-609pp radius, one on the right is accepable but the one on the left is bad.

Next is edge distance on HS-404, which screwed up HS-405 & HS-702 as well.

Then I belive on of the ribs to be too long or short as I couldn't get HS-405 tucked into HS-702 far enough. This caused issues with edge distance as well as the rivet line being off center.

Then to top it all off, I was match drilling the skin to relise "oh s@#$" I just put 3 #30 holes in a skin.....

If I have to order 2 kits or even 3, im going to get this thing done right!

 

[jtrollin]

Breath, have a beer and realize that most of us have gone through this. That being said most of what you pointed out I would say move on, there is no need to replace it all. you can use opps rivets for the three #30 holes you drilled (or just use a #4 flush rivet in those holes).. If you try and make everything perfect you will never have an airplane.

 

[g zero]

keep building

If you looked at the tail of almost any Rv you can find flaws in workmanship ( Unless they use bondo to hide it ). Also I think more than one builder has order a tail kit when they are done building " For spare parts ". The tail is entry into building. Minor Flaws Keep Building.!!!!!!

 

[MNForrest]

Van's says:

You're building a "tractor" not a watch.

 

[painless]

In a nutshell, you are being WAY to hard on yourself here. None of the examples you illustrated with pictures warrant replacement or sleepless nights.

From what I see, you are building at or above the standard of care, which will result in an airplane that you will be proud of and which will be safe. Remember, building an experimental airplane is an educational experience and you have already learned volumes from what you perceive as mistakes.

I would suggest that you slow down just a tad for the next few building sessions. Read the construction notes several times for each process you are working on. Use the "Measure twice, cut once" approach. As you progress, you will come to realize that you are indeed building an airplane that you will feel comfortable taking loved ones for rides.

As Vans has been quoted as saying, "You are not building a watch, you are building an airplane."

Relax, build on, and ENJOY the journey.

 

[N208ET]

Depends on what you want

If you are building for show, I think the choice is obvious. If you are building to fly, this stuff can be fixed. Your HS 609PP Looks alright to me, getting close on the edge distance but still within tolerance. Put some AD426 4-4 in the 3 holes you misdrilled. I think doublers could be manufactured to fix your other edge distance problems. If it will make you feel better to replace it, then do that. Starting out is tough, especially when you don't have much in the way of aircraft construction knowledge. Get involved in a local eaa chapter if you can, this will help down the road as there are lots of people around to lend a helping hand. BTW, if you look at some of the tails that are on flying RV's, you will notice many people go through this. Enjoy the build.

Randy
8A Finishing, FWF, Baffles, Painting,.............................

 

[chaskuss]

Workmanship issues

Breath, have a beer and realize that most of us have gone through this. That being said most of what you pointed out I would say move on, there is no need to replace it all. you can use opps rivets for the three #30 holes you drilled (or just use a #4 flush rivet in those holes).. If you try and make everything perfect you will never have an airplane.

Bill,
While you can use a NAS 1097 "oops" rivet to cover up the occasional mistake, using 3 in a row is a no no. You are not supposed to use them when they are next to each other or close together. The rule of thumb is only 1 rivet in 10 can be a NAS 1097 rivet. Otherwise, strength is compromised. Since you have 3 in a row, just dimple and install 1/8" rivets.
I had a fair amount of difficulty driving the 1/8" universal rivets in my HS skeleton. I've got at least half a dozen 5/32" rivets in my skeleton. Only replace that skin and rib if you will be bothered by the cosmetics issue.
Charlie Kuss

 

[Calvin25]

Thanks guys, im going to slow way down.

Having a good time with it!!

I'm going to start over on the HS, I'll bet I could sell this one to the teenager down the block. It would look pretty slick bolted to the rear hatch of his car.

 

[Randy Walls]

Go look real close at a Cessna, you will feel better.

 

[videobobk]

Let's look at these one at a time:

?If I had another shot at that part it would come out so much better!?
Every first time builder should say that. You aren't trying for a show plane first time around, are you?

Then I look at the edge distances and alignments and ask myself ?What would happen if this developed a crack here??
This shows a good attitude. Never ignore edge distance. The parts are inexpensive here, but double-check before you fire up the drill.

?Will I feel good about taking people I love up in this aircraft??
Of course! It is pretty hard to screw up to the point of being dangerous. Get a tech councilor or experienced builder to help you here.

?Can I be confident in my work enough to push the G limits as I dream to do??
See above...

?You?re not going to build a perfect airplane?
No, you're not. Forget that. In fact, I doubt that it has ever been done.

?You will strap 80k + in additional parts to this plane what?s a couple hundred for new parts from Vans??
Right on. And nothing to be ashamed of.

Just remember, every RV out there has some smileys and a few #4 rivets where there should be #3's. Learn to do a really good job of drilling out rivets, and when to accept less-than-perfect without picking up the drill. Often we will screw up worse when we try for perfection.

I would say you have a good attitude for building a great RV. You might need to spend some time with someone further into the process, of have someone look over your work. This is true for everyone. Look at the accomplishments, not the setbacks, or you will quickly become discouraged. Now, build on.

Bob Kelly

 

[Mel]

Are you using a tech counselor? A TC can be a real help, especially when getting started.
BTW, Those 3 holes you drilled to 1/8" will be covered by the fairing anyway. Use #4 rivets.

 

[L.Adamson]

Bill,
While you can use a NAS 1097 "oops" rivet to cover up the occasional mistake, using 3 in a row is a no no. You are not supposed to use them when they are next to each other or close together. The rule of thumb is only 1 rivet in 10 can be a NAS 1097 rivet. Otherwise, strength is compromised. Since you have 3 in a row, just dimple and install 1/8" rivets.
I had a fair amount of difficulty driving the 1/8" universal rivets in my HS skeleton. I've got at least half a dozen 5/32" rivets in my skeleton. Only replace that skin and rib if you will be bothered by the cosmetics issue.
Charlie Kuss

And this has been often debated over the years. In fact, an airliner assembler stated that he'd use all "oops" rivets on an RV if possible. I believe it's the MD80 skins that used this type of rivet; only they weren't known as "oops". There was even an article titled " why do some call these rivets --- oops"

And I'd go as far as saying that the "oops" rivit is stronger in shear than what it's replacing. It also had a domed head to add a bit more material as it's compressed to it's final form. Personally, I'd say it has a bit less hold in tension. I always wanted to test, but haven't got around to it.

And when Van's was pressed for an answer, they didn't know for sure, as they had never built and tested an airplane with a lot of what is known to some as "oops" rivets. Obviously, an "oops" rivet airplane is going to weigh more!

Anyway.....................open to debate....

edit: the MD80 use of these type of rivets were for the fuselage skins. Not all structural assemblies.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[chaskuss]

You've been VANdelized!

I?m not feeling good about the quality of my work so far.

snipped
Next is edge distance on HS-404, which screwed up HS-405 & HS-702 as well.

Then I belive on of the ribs to be too long or short as I couldn't get HS-405 tucked into HS-702 far enough. This caused issues with edge distance as well as the rivet line being off center.

Then to top it all off, I was match drilling the skin to realize "oh s@#$" I just put 3 #30 holes in a skin.....
snipped


If I have to order 2 kits or even 3, im going to get this thing done right!

Is the edge distance issue on this rib flange due to interference with the spar? If not, simply cut that front flange off the main rib, and fabricate a "scab" flange to replace it. It appears to me that the issue you have with not being able to maintain the center of your forward spar flange is due to the main ribs being to long. I had the EXACT same issue with my 8A HS. I figured this out BEFORE I drilled into the front spar. I had drawn a Sharpie marker pen line down the center of the front spar flanges to verify location of the rivet line.
I realized that the middle and inner main ribs on my HS were to long. I ordered 4 new main ribs. Guess what? The new ribs were no better. I knew I had a problem, but didn't know how to fix it.
I called in my RV guru, Jody Edwards. He laughed at my dilemma. He said this happens all the time in the certified world. (Jody's an A&P, IA and built a very nice RV4) He told me that Lots of the parts on Vans earlier kits did not fit correctly. He even coined a term for it. He calls it being VANdalized! He showed me how to shorten the offending ribs and fabricate and install scab flanges. Using these "scab" flanges, I was able to shorten the ribs. This allowed me to place the center line I had drawn on the front spar directly under the line of rivet holes on my front spar.
My situation was MUCH worse than yours. The rivet line on the main skin drifted completely off of the front spar flange, before it ever reached the inner, main rib. If you are only lacking edge distance on a few rivets on the inner end, just blaze on. If that is not the case, order new front spar parts and proceed as I described above. Move the "scab" flange on the main ribs as needed to locate the center of the front spar flange under the rivet line on the skin. Below are some rather poor photos of a "scab" flange. I only had a disposable camera, at this point in my build process.

Fabricate the "scab" flange into the shape in the photo above. Make it from 2024-T3 of the same thickness as the original rib. You then bend it so that it can be riveted to the web of the offending rib. To fix the edge distance problem on the ribs shown at the top, simply slide the scab flange up or down as needed to achieve the needed edge distance.

Feel free to PM me for more info if interested.

Charlie Kuss

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

I think the questions you're asking yourself and the dilemma you think you have is THE single most difficult part of building an RV airplane. I wrote about it a few years ago here.

In the end, you have to answer to the voice in your head and no amount of advice can make that go away.

You're at the stage where you're setting your standards for the rest of the project and it's a thin, thin line between reason and denial.

No one can tell you what standards for workmanship are best for you. There's been some good advice posted here.

I do have to admit I'm a little concerned whenever I hear "build on." It MIGHT be good advice but it makes me think back to an RV I saw back at Oshkosh in -- I think -- 2003. It apparently had only recently been completed and if there was a bigger POS at Oshkosh, or anywhere else, I haven't seen it.

We wondered how anyone ever signed off on the thing; it was THAT bad. I often wonder whatever happened to that plane.

Today, tech counselor Tom Berge is visiting my hangar for a tech counselor visit. On the one hand, I'm glad to have an experienced gent with high standards look at the project. On the other, I'm nervous that my workmanship won't be satisfactory. But overall I think getting a relationship going with a tech counselor will allay whatever fears you have and give you a solid foundation on defining those standards.

 

[Calvin25]

Thank you VAF!!

I'm going to join the local EAA as well as replace the parts for a piece of mind.


RANDY! It is funny that you mention Cessna quality.

back in 2000, I bought a 206H "mellenium edition"

Band spanking new from cessna it shows up with "crooked" wings.

Cessna: the plane must have had a hard landing on one wheel and the strutt pushed the left wing high.

Me: Ok, so it only has ferry time on it, I need this fixed.

Cessna: All you need to do is land hard on the other side....

NO BS.....

Then I take it in to have it looked at localy, they find out not only are the wings crooked, Cessna put the wrong spar in after I paid for the float provision.

Cessna ended up putting new wings on it.

 

[Calvin25]

YES Charlie!

Thank you for conferming my notion that these ribs are not the right length!

Bob,
Excellent article, it is exactly how I feel.

 

[chaskuss]

The alleged superiority of certified workmanship

Go look real close at a Cessna, you will feel better.

Randy is correct here. I was worrying at the beginning, as are you. My RV guru invited me down to view a Beech 1900 they were updating. The Beech 1900 is a stretched, commuter version of the Beech King Air. This particular aircraft had been sold from one airline to a new company who was going to use it as an "island hopper". The entire interior had been torn out of the fuselage. I was instructed to observe a line of rivets traveling vertically up the left side of the fuselage, in front of the passenger door. I then entered the aircraft and observed this same line of rivets from the inside.
To say I was shocked is an understatement. The line of rivets secured a bulkhead to the outer skin. At the floor line of the aircraft, the rivets were dead center on the bulkhead's flange. As the rivet line progressed upward, the rivet line (which was totally vertical and looked great from the outside) was drifting away from the web of the bulkhead. The problem was so bad, that the last 20% of the rivets on the left side flange of that bulkhead, did not even CONTACT the flange of the bulkhead. They were only filling the rivet holes in the skin.
Bear in mind that this aircraft's fuselage is a pressure vessel. The passenger area is pressurized at altitude. Yet, this aircraft had been flying like this for 20+ years! It had not fallen out of the sky. My friend told me that certified planes are "built by drunks and house wives. They don't care, they aren't going to fly in it."
You care, so in the end, your workmanship will be the equal or better than theirs.
Charlie Kuss

 

[Webb]

Quite beating up on yourself. It's an airplane. Every stinking RV out there has something that is cosmetically ugly.

However - very few of them have anything that is structurally ugly!!!

I told my good friend here that better is the enemy of good enough. If it is sound and you can live with it....leave it alone.

Drill out those 3 holes with a #30 and put the right size rivet in it...Move on.

On your very first flight, you will get a rock nick in the paint. Your foot will go past the wing walk and a little grit will scratch the paint that was stuck to the sole of your shoe. Things happen and remember they will.

Also, from what I saw, things looked good. It you want to see ugly, wait until you work on the wing skins. Worst part, some of those don't show until you paint it and then it's too d.a.m.n. late.

Keep on building.

 

[chaskuss]

Don't over do it.

Thanks guys, I'm going to slow way down.

Having a good time with it!!

I'm going to start over on the HS, I'll bet I could sell this one to the teenager down the block. It would look pretty slick bolted to the rear hatch of his car.

Just fix what (if anything) needs fixing. No need to start over. Mel is correct, those 3 over size rivets won't show. Good thing no one will ever see the skeleton of my HS! I had problems learning to shoot universal rivets on thin structure! No shortage of AN470AD5's there.
Charlie Kuss

 

[Rick6a]

I think the questions you're asking yourself and the dilemma you think you have is THE single most difficult part of building an RV airplane.......In the end, you have to answer to the voice in your head and no amount of advice can make that go away......you're setting your standards for the rest of the project and it's a thin, thin line between reason and denial.....I do have to admit I'm a little concerned whenever I hear "build on.".......if there was a bigger POS at Oshkosh, or anywhere else, I haven't seen it........

A good writer knows how to paint a vivid word picture and Bob surely knows how to wield his mighty pen. His comments on the subject are golden. I'll rely on this graphic example to augment my lesser writing skills. It is up to you to decide whether this example of RV craftsmanship falls short, meets or even exceeds your personal expectation.

As for what are known in the RV community as "oops" rivets....well, I've always been a bit chagrined at that cheap short hand characterization. NAS1097 rivets are and have been used EXTENSIVELY in the aerospace industry and the rivet was not specifically designed for the narrow purposes that RV builders are almost universally familiar with. Used primarily for nutplate installation in the combat and commercial aviation industry, this useful rivet predates the RV design by decades and has a purpose that goes far beyond the single task of filling up a wallowed out hole in RV skins based solely on its convenient manufactured head diameter. It has always been a mystery to me why Van's does not encourage its more proper use in nutplate installation, especially when that nutplate is installed in thin sheet.

 

[gbumga]

The little voice

Calvin, I just spent the winter worried about some of the same things on starting my EMP. I joined an EAA chapter, talked with the TC and did what he said and more. it is very troubling when you are precise at normal work and then start an RV and can't do the same precision. I've got a stack of parts I won't use. Most could have been used but I couldn't stand it. I was pushing way to hard and going to fast. now I just stroll to the shop fit and measure, scratch my itch and do some FUN building. It gets better and skills improve. The A/P, TC at or EAA chapter showed me how to stop causing most of my problems. Gene

 

[newtech]

Thanks guys, im going to slow way down.

Having a good time with it!!

I'm going to start over on the HS, I'll bet I could sell this one to the teenager down the block. It would look pretty slick bolted to the rear hatch of his car.

If you are going to buy/build a second stabilizer then don't buy and build it now. Go ahead and finish the one you have as if you were going to fly it. Put in the 1/8" rivets add doublers where necessary and finish it. Build the new "show plane" stabilizer after the plane is finished; then it will look great because of all of your experience. My guess is you will go ahead and fly the first one and save the money it would have cost. Either way you win. Just don't build the second one now.

Just my .01 and worth everything you paid for it.

 

[jscottpilot]

dont think Beech, Cessna, Piper, Aerospatial and Pilatus are perfect.

I have been flying since 1979 and professionally since 1984. In that time I had little interest in maintenance issues other than is the airplane legal to fly and is it airworthy. I fly for an organization that operates hundreds of airplanes. I have become a senior pilot over time and I work out of the national maintenance facility for these airplanes. When an airplane needs major work and needs to be ferried I am the one who does it. The maintenance problems are gone over well with pictures, xrays, non destructive testing etc before they are ferried. I see it all. The most interesting part of this is I see all the problems you mentioned in your original posts in airplanes that were constructed in a factory 20 and 30 years ago. I would never have noticed these problems if had not started constructing an RV8 myself. All these edge distance infractions, misaligned structural parts, horribly hammered rivets and ever the wrong parts or parts installed backwards were done during the original construction and they are still flying after decades without alteration. If Beech, Cessna, Pilatus, The Austalian Aircraft Factory, Aerospatial and Piper can get away with it I am sure a few imperfections will not affect your airworthiness. You need to prioritize what is important and not drive youself crazy.

 

[Mel]

I like Steve's approach. Don't build the replacement now. Continue to hone your skills on this one. Later,
IF you still want to build a replacement, your skills will be at a different level.

 

[SvingenB]

Hardest part for me so far is learning where to draw the line.

What I do is to focus on structural things like edge distance, keeping it straight overall, radiuses, proper deburring, priming etc. All the finer cosmetics I have to forget, I'm simply not good enough as a builder. A perfectly good pop rivet is much better than a badly set solid rivet in a oval hole for instance. I have ordered a bunch of vareous CherryMax rivets now to be used an all those hard to reach places.

Also you should look at eaa videos and have some experienced person to come to your shop.

 

[Vlad]

Don't build the replacement now. Continue to hone your skills on this one. Later,
IF you still want to build a replacement, your skills will be at a different level.

It's so true. Three years ago I was worried about 1/32 misalignment on HS brackets... could not sleep good at night. Now it's different story. Real work on the airplane begins with firewall forward stuff.

 

[Calvin25]

Thanks guys for your help. I spent the greater portion of Saturday morning on the phone with Charlie (chaskuss) discussing the ins and outs of building
the RV; followed by AC 43.13-1B. Thanks again, you went way above and beyond!

Not trying to build a show plane, just trying to figuar out whats good enough.

I'm not worried about the 3 skin holes as one will be used to attach the fairing and the other 2 still have edge distance for a #4-4.5 flush rivet.

the other issues with edge distance i'm going to call it a "do over".

With the aft spar stiffeners, 3 radiuses are spot on the other is not too bad considering the heavy guage of the aluminum used, but there where pretty deep tooling marks in them from when I got them. They have a slight wave to them after trying to smooth them out. I will judge that one when I see how well everything beds up.

Thanks again for all your support,
-Bill

 

[flion]

Bill, to add another voice to the mix, I had pretty much the same worries and then I got a guy who was all down on my workmanship. I nearly died; I was already assembling the plane at the airport! After panicking a bit, I got some of the local A&Ps to have a look. They didn't have an issue with my workmanship though they did tell me how to correct some of the problems I had. The moral of the story is not to pay too much attention to simple criticism (even from yourself) unless it also comes packaged with some helpful advice. The lack of a good TC up here is why I became one myself. I'd come down to look at your project but I understand you have some good ones already in your area.

Or so I hear ... I see Gil Alexander listed in the latest Sport Aviation but I got my plane in the air before he showed up to look my project over. I guess I'll just have to fly it down for him to look at. (Just kidding Gil, I know you tried several times.)

Also, for a little heretical perspective; the original homebuilders didn't have EAA, TCs, or even any ACs. You've got a lot of support, here and locally, plus a well-designed kit. Some of these that are flying look like they were built with spare parts from the still. Seriously, someone showed me a white RV that looked like it should be in someone's front yard rusting with the pickups; all it lacked was a gun rack in back. And the paint... but I understand that it had been flying for awhile. Most of us go into our projects with the healthy realization that our butts will be on the line when it's flown so we do all we can to be as perfect as possible. But I know a father/son duo who had to quit building a -6A after the empennage because obsessing over the workmanship was literally making the son sick. Don't be like that; your care puts you head and shoulders above the average craftsman already.

 

[Geico266]

Go look real close at a Cessna, you will feel better.

Now that is funny! And true!

 

[Harland E. [n.m. u.s.a.]]

Education and recreation

Calvin,I promise you that before long your gut will be your guide and you will know the difference between "good enough" and "this might fall apart later!" Every single builder I've ever had contact with has had to re-order at least a part or two from Van's.[I suspect that Van's sells about one complete airframe per fifty kits or so in spare parts from our screw-ups].You will not be an airplane builder until your plane is complete.You will not know how to build an airplane until your airplane is complete. P.S. I might recommend a "Wall of Shame" to hang your sins from to remind you of past experiences gone bad.Peace.

 

[videobobk]

I remember being so sure of my rivet-driving abilities. I SWORE I would never drill out a rivet. The first day that I set rivets I drilled out twelve! I have a jar with nothing but drilled out rivets--that is my hall of shame. This is a journey. I learned more about me in those three years of building than I did about building, or about airplanes. And I believe I am a better man for it.

Bob Kelly