Scott Will

Well Known Member
How tail heavy will I be? (IO-360, Catto prop)

From what I've read, the -7/-7A can be slightly tail heavy without a C/S prop. My configuration is IO-360 with a fixed pitch (Catto) prop. Craig Catto says that the prop weighs a scant 17 lbs while a Sensenich weighs about 40 lb. Quite a difference.

Right now I only have 1 Odyssey battery in the standard location. I'm wondering if I should add another.

Looking on Dan's excellent W&B database, I notice the FPs are closer to the aft envelope.

Anyone out there that can provide some insight?

Best,
 
Last edited:
If your IO-360 is an angle valve, it will make up the difference. It's quite a bit heavier than the parallel valve. I have the Catto 3-blade and it does indeed weigh 17 lbs.
Mel...DAR
 
Scott, my setup is similar (see below) and I am very aware of this. However, after looking at it from different angles, the only thing I came away with is that we should be mounting anything and everything as far forward as possible such as the ELT etc.

Additionally, I am going to use the 'Connection Z-13 scheme for my electricals which adds a standby dynamo for a couple of pounds. And additionally, I'll be adding a smaller backup battery (the Z-30 circuit) because it can serve two purposes as not only an additional battery, but a good excuse for ballast as well.

In short, don't get too worried about it, but do make it part of the plan to put as much forward as possible if your using the composite Catto prop.
 
Engine is parallel valve, 180hp. Sorry - should have mentioned that!

I'm at work now and I don't have the drawings to see where the datums are and how much of a difference another battery would make. I'm also wondering if an aluminum spinner might help... I looked on the Orndorff website but it's not listed anymore.

If you're not into acro, then it looks like we can get away with it. But best I can tell, I'll be on the aft end with not much room to spare. And I have Oregon seats.

ELT may get moved tonight!
 
Sabre makes a 4" heavy prop extension

Sabre makes a 4" heavy prop extension that is 3-5 pounds heavier then the spacer Vans sells. They also make heavy crush plates if you want to go that route (10 and 25 lbs if memory serves). Be warned, these are big dollar items.

As you stated, mount everything as forward as possible. I'm in the same boat as you. Good luck.

Hugh "McFly"
 
Mark Landol makes a "CG adjuster" a heavy steel ring which bolts to the flywheel, for just this situation. This is not the same unit as his harmonic balancer. I have one on my O360/ Catto RV-6, and I calculated that it moved the CG forward about 3/4 inch. It weighs about 12 lbs and was around $75 IIRC (several years ago.)

MARK LANDOLL 405-392-3847 STARTERS, MASS/DAMPING RINGS, ALTERNATORS
 
Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance here (not that difficult), but why do most of the weight addition solutions given here involve rotating parts? It seems this would add alot of dollars due to structural and balance issues, where simply lining the battery tray with lead sheet, Or bolting on a chunk to the firewall etc, would be vastly cheaper and easier?
 
Adding the weight on the flywheel has a couple of advantages. First, it places the weight as far forward as possible (other than lining the spinner with lead) and thus reduces the amount of weight required to move the CG a given amount. Second, adding mass to the prop/ flywheel increases the inertia of the prop, making for easier starting and smoothing engine operation. In effect it makes the light prop/ weight combo behave on the engine like a (heavier) metal prop.
 
The old boat anchor Prestolite starter is staying on my RV-6 for weight and balance purposes. I have an 0-320 with a two bade Catto Prop.
As the CG moves close to the aft limit, the stick pressure gets pretty light on landings.

Bob S
 
I have a -6 with a wood prop. The ELT is in the footwell just behind the battery and the strobe pack is under the panel. I kept the prestolite starter for ballast purposes. Far cheaper than a $400 lightweight starter + a $200 harmonic balancer...

With 2 on board (350 lbs), I can carry 65 lbs of baggage at zero fuel and be within c/g.

Someone alluded to having a problem with aft CG if your doing acro, but I doubt you'll have any CG issue at all in acro mode (no baggage). Low fuel with mucho baggage is where you could get into CG issues.
 
Update: I spoke with Sam at Saber Manufacturing in Fort Worth. He makes a steel version of the 2 1/4" prop extension. He happened to have one in stock and is sending it to me (after sending him lots of money).

I ran through various scenarios today using Dan's database... based on one aircraft with OEW of 1085 and CG of 80.9:
- Catto prop (-23 lbs) new OEW of 1062 and CG of 82.2"
- Catto prop (-23 lbs, +16 lb Odyssey battery) new OEW of 1078 and CG of 81.8"... only gains 0.4".

Obviously the most bang for the buck is as far out front as possible. So that's why I'm going with the heavy prop extension. It's 22 lb! I'm aiming for a CG in the 80's. If I need to add even more weight, I can get a heavier crush plate.
 
Mine is a -7 with wood prop.

Yes the cg is an issue.

I have the base/clearcoat paint system. I can't prove it but I believe the paint is heavy. AND its just about all aft of the CG.

about 60 lbs baggage is my limit.

I have a 25LB bag of shotgun shot that will sit on the tray in front of the fuel selector as close to the firewall as possible when I xcrountry.

cary r
 
Move the engine

This thread makes me want to take a hard look at the engine location, since I am still many months away from that stage. Thinking about adding weight for CG issues drives me crazy. :eek: I guess the first thing I will take a look at is whether the dynafocal rings are the same from O-320 to parallel O-360 and do the moment calcs for hanging the O-360 2" further out. That ought to be worth about 800 inch pounds. That's probably way too much, so maybe this boils down to some properly engineered spacers between the firewall and the (6) engine mount points and a bit of fiberglas work on the back edge of my cowl (not there yet either).

I have yet to dig into any of this, so please regard it as pure speculation.
 
whoa there...

Before you start re-engineering things and getting in over your head, you might want to seek clarification on what exactly Cary means by "cg is an issue." Does that mean with >60 lbs of baggage and ?? gallons of fuel and ??? pounds of bodies the CG is aft of Van's allowable range? Or does it just mean it handles differently? Is stability an issue? I would seek clarification on this type of stuff before you jump to any major conclusions. And not to doubt Cary for one minute, but keep in mind that this is ONE man's experience with his particular plane. What is an "issue" to one person may not be an issue to another.

Moving the engine is, in my opinion, a pretty major alteration. This is not as "ramification free" as some other "mods."

)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
 
Good advice Dan, and as is usually the case, some of the best advice I've ever heard normally starts with "Whoa". :p

If you have a 7 with a composite prop, I think Scott Will found the best solution in finding out that Sabre has a 22 pound 2-1/2" extension. I haven't done the math, but my gut tells me that adding that one simple "fix" will not only put the CG where you want it for most loadings, but also add some healthy inertia to the prop (as already mentioned earlier).

Changing the location of the engine brings with it all sorts of new problems that I personally wouldn't want to have to deal with since there's a much easier and cheaper way with a weighted extension.
 
I wouldn't run off buying expensive extensions before YOUR airplane is weighted and W&B worked out.. I don't think you can draw conclusions on what you'll need based on data provided on Dan's site and subtracting prop weights alone.
 
Remember that it's not just weight, but location. Things at the tail are a LONG way away from cg. For example, aft facing lights on the wingtips instead of on the tail might be a good idea. As has been mentioned already, the elt/antenna should also be mounted away from the tail.
 
Locating weight as far forward as possible is always good practice, but I am not sure about the ELT.

Remember, the ELT is there to locate you should you have a mishap. Locating it at least just behind the rear baggage bulkhead helps to ensure that it survives a crash and can be operational. If not to find you alive, to at least bring closure to your family.

Regards,
 
Radomir said:
I wouldn't run off buying expensive extensions before YOUR airplane is weighted and W&B worked out.. I don't think you can draw conclusions on what you'll need based on data provided on Dan's site and subtracting prop weights alone.

Sure you can (draw conclusions from Dan's data). Look at the average datums of CS models compared to first, metal FP props, and then to the composite props. There is definitely a pattern even if you take into consideration that different builders put things in different places.

I think it's safe to say that if you have a composite prop especially, planning on putting a 22 pound extension on your plane can only improve things.
 
It's OK guys

Dan and Vern,
It's OK, I was just speculating (with somewhat evil intent of causing a furor in this thread ;) ). My own craft with the particular component selections and various placements of batteries and such would certainly have to be taken into account before entertaining a "drastic" change of engine position.

Please don't be concerned about me even though it is certainly a warning to take seriously. I am qualified to do it if needed because I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night... :D ... plus.... the mechanical and aerospace engineering degree helps. :cool:

I think it is important to remember that prior to the advent of the "kit" market with cookbook parts, engine positioning and mount fabrication was one of the big tasks for the homebuilder. It's amusing to think about the 7 being possibly tail heavy in certain configurations compared to all the anecdotes I remember from the 70's and 80's about nose heaviness from the proverbial oversized engine. Since the battery is already in the front, it can't be moved there to help!
 
By design

Early RV's -3 & -4 and even the -6 really where made with lighter prop & engine combos in mind. It was not till late 80's early 90's Van fully embraced constant speed props. The first RV factory prototypes up and including the RV-6 had fixed pitch props, at least at first. Past RV's tended to be nose heavy, since builders tended to put larger engines and c/s props added even more to the nose.

Now comes the case in point, the RV-7. To make it work for a 200HP/C/S combo and make it also work for a O320/wood is a challenge, no doubt. I think it is fair to say the RV-7 is tail heavy with light engine/props. Van no doubt did this from his experience and knowing builders tend to build heaver than lighter. Of course builders being creative are making there FWF setup lighter. What works real well in a RV-6 is on the light side in a RV-7.

Here is an un scientific survey of about 115 RV's (all models RV-4 thru 9):
Total...............MIN..........MAX..........AVG
60....FIX..........874..........1170..........1041
55....CS..........1010..........1244..........1111
41....320..........874..........1168..........1034
60....360..........986..........1189..........1084
14...IO360.......1103..........1244..........1151
32...320Fix........874..........1106..........1019
28...360Fix........986..........1170..........1066
9....320CS........1010..........1168..........1084
32...360CS.......1026..........1189..........1101
14...IO360CS....1103..........1244..........1151

Before you point out that I don't break out models, if its painted or day VFR or Night IFR, look at the trends. The AVG O320/fixed = 1019 lbs; IO360/CS = 1151 lbs. The difference is 132 lbs. Lets assume that weight is mostly influenced by the engine prop combo, which I think is true. Really no surprise fix pitch planes are lighter, and O320 planes are lighter than IO360 (200hp) planes.

Here is the average of 25 RV-7(A)'s:
...............#..........MIN..........MAX..........AVG
RV-7.......15..........1011..........1141..........1073
RV-7A.....10..........1020..........1134..........1092

I am a big fan of the Hartzell constant speed prop, especially the New Blended Airfoil prop made for the RV. Also the Sensenich Fixed is an excellent prop. I guess this is one case where weight is good. Don't get me wrong a light RV with a O-320 and wood prop is awesome, but like big heavy engines on the early RV's, light engines on the RV-7 has W&B considerations. There are tricks to minimize and mitigate the aft CG.

Using light a weight starter, alternator, prop and a smaller engine can get you into a little W&B quandary in the RV-7. The point is when building a light RV, try to put as much equip as far forward as possible. Also keep in mind paint tends to shift CG aft. Watch priming and heavy paint on the back end of the plane. Another 10 lbs on the back is not going to help.

I hate to say it, but ballast is a time honored tradition in aviation. There has been many an airliner that I have flown that needed ballast (usually a spare tire or ballast pallet in the cargo compartment). Also with light loads there are many a time flight attendants have to move people around to get the W&Balance to work out, even in a B737. Trust me, its not a RV-7 thing.

Using a weight (ballast) on the nose (say on the engine between the starter and alternator) could solve your problem, it you indeed even have a problem. Before you get into a moment of inertia and spin characteristic debate of ballast on the nose should be a non issue, and easy to check by similarity to the moment of inertia of a heavy engine/prop combo compared to a light engine/prop with ballast. Always check with Van's aircraft before making any major structural change or modification, but in my opinion a nose weight is not going to be an issue. Also if you upgrade to a Hartzell or Sensenich you can always drop the weight. Also for local flights you may be able to take the weight off for solo flight.

As far as luggage, you may be aft baggage compartment limited with an aft empty CG, but in my RV-4 I used soft duffel's and they where strategically place in the cockpit under the passengers knees. For a long trip, with care you can place some items on the cockpit floor for cross countries. Make some kind of anchors to assure payload does not shift fwd and interfere with the rudder pedals would be a good idea. It adds more payload volume and has a small positive CG effect. Most of the time, if you are like me you will fly solo or two up with no bags.

George RV-4, RV-7
 
Last edited:
Believe me, before I plunked down that big chunk of change for my heavy prop extension, I carefully studied my problem and best available solutions.

I work as a senior engineer for a major airline in our performance engineering department - responsible for takeoff/landing analysis, enroute analysis and weight and balance for our fleet of 500+ airplanes. We analyze everything down to the last flight attendant pushing a cart to first class from the back of the plane or that guy in 32C going to the fwd lav.

Anyway, I will not modify the aircraft in anyway (i.e. moving engine). Nor will I add un-needed weight. What I want is a good handling plane at practical CG ranges and flexibility. A heavy prop extension seemed like the easiest and most practical. Granted I could have waited til the end to see what was really necessary but judging on how MY airplane is built and looking at others numbers I felt it was a good thing to do. I can always step down to the 'regular' extension or get the 10lb weight for the starter ring.

Craig told me his props weigh 16 - 17 lbs... no where near the 40 lb Sensenich. The FP/CS debate can be found in the other threads!