J

JohnBabrick

I'm New Here
Hello all,

I have just purchased a new house in Michigan. We will have seven acres and the lot dimensions are such that I would have about an 800 foot stretch that I could conceivably put a landing strip on. Further, I *might* be able to get the neighbor farmer to rent me a strip of his land that would allow me another few hundred feet. My question is, how much land do I need to take off and land an RV-7A?

Some additional information: I am a low time new pilot. I will get transition training before flying. I will be doing all the flight testing from a regular airport and would not be attempting any such short landings or take offs until I had plenty of experience. I plan on putting a 200 hp engine and a constant speed prop on the airplane. The proposed strip has some tall trees around it in some directions, but is otherwise surrounded by a golf course and farm fields. Directly beyond the trees are driving ranges that are lined up with the runway, so an engine out would involve flying straight ahead for open fields.

I didn't buy the house expecting to use it as a runway, but if I could then I'd like to know about how practical it might or might not be.

Opinions and advice please?

John Babrick
RV-7A QB (empennage)
Shelbyville MI
 
If my memory is correct, Van used to fly out of a strip at his place that was 600'. long, and designed his a/c to be usable there.

Winds, and obstructions must be taken into account though, not just length.

Hope this helps to answer your question.

Mike
 
Very few times I've been able to land and exit at the 500ft. mark. on a paved runway.

I'd burn up all that 800 ft. if it were me. I seem to normally like 1000ft. to 1300ft. to land. I'd want a 1300ft. runway min., personally.

Taking off--- I'd say 700ft. is comfortable.

YMMV skill level etc.


Build that runway!!!
 
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JohnBabrick said:
Hello all,

I have just purchased a new house in Michigan. We will have seven acres and the lot dimensions are such that I would have about an 800 foot stretch that I could conceivably put a landing strip on. Further, I *might* be able to get the neighbor farmer to rent me a strip of his land that would allow me another few hundred feet. My question is, how much land do I need to take off and land an RV-7A?

Some additional information: I am a low time new pilot. I will get transition training before flying. I will be doing all the flight testing from a regular airport and would not be attempting any such short landings or take offs until I had plenty of experience. I plan on putting a 200 hp engine and a constant speed prop on the airplane. The proposed strip has some tall trees around it in some directions, but is otherwise surrounded by a golf course and farm fields. Directly beyond the trees are driving ranges that are lined up with the runway, so an engine out would involve flying straight ahead for open fields.

I didn't buy the house expecting to use it as a runway, but if I could then I'd like to know about how practical it might or might not be.

Opinions and advice please?

John Babrick
RV-7A QB (empennage)
Shelbyville MI
Click to expand...

I don't know what the laws are like in michigan but in Kansas you would need to get legal permission to use a private strip. I have a 1,000 Ft strip at my house and it is not legal. I have a 7A 180 C/S and I can get in and out easy. I just use it when I need to do maintenance.
 
My strip is 1500' packed white rock with clear approaches. In Texas in the summer time, I would not want any shorter. Density altitude and a cross wind make things interesting. You can see a picture on AirNav.com (8TA5).
 
John - if you only have 800' and low experience I would not do it unless everything else is in your favour. If you do go ahead, practice elsewhere 'til you are really confident.

I fly out of 1020' and have been flying a Supercub and a -9A there. Everyone reads the specs and says it must be easy. The problem is its not perfect, its the real world; crosswind, tailwind, turbulence, wet grass etc etc etc. Bad days I sometimes use about 750'. So I have always had 250' to spare. True, but I do not have the stomach for coming to a halt with the spinner 10' from the fence. Very few friends have visited twice!

I have chosen to build a -4 for a number of reasons. The -7 carries just a bit more energy on landing and to me its too much. You can take a look at my strip at

http://gikonwhy4.blogspot.com/

It is a blog I have started to develop since I have just bought a digital camera to record my build. It is not ready for release yet, lots of testing and work in progress but the bit I have done might just interest you.

Good luck, Steve.
 
Many factors

Does the strip favor prevailing winds?
Are there obstacles right off departure and approach?
What's the surface like: gravel, dirt, grass, soft / hard pack?
Many variables. Does your insurance care?

If I was just flying around and saw a 800 ft strip I would have major caution, even though with a little head wind I routinely land and get off turn off in 800 ft (no obstacles near threshold and asphault). Take off? Depends on weight and DA (temp/Alt). If two up, hot I would probably not consider going into a 800 ft strip unless I was real familiar and had good reasons to go to that strip. Solo, cool, no obstacles, firm dry reasonably smooth surface, sure.

One I learned about flying story: Taking off a grass strip (Van's) it took way longer than expected. It was a little hot, two up, some bags but it was just doggy. When I got home, pushing the plane into the hanger the brakes where dragging badly! Well if you let the pads get too thin this can happen. The pucks extend too far get cockeyed in the caliper and stick. Now when I check brake pads, if I even go hummmm, it does not look that bad......may be I can go another X hours or 4 months, I just change them. It's not worth dragging brakes. The embarrassing thing was I just checked them during a condition inspection a month before and thought they where good. Even more embarrassing was my A&P/AI friend saw them and casually mentioned, I should change them now, not later even if they have a little more life. The point, short fields have less margins. Things can go awry and they are not always in your direct control.

From a RVator story I recall, Van made an off field landing flying a RV off his grass strip in Oregon. His brother Jerry who just happened to be there, suggested Van takeoff in the other direction for a better departure path. That turned out to be a good move, since Van lost power after takeoff. The direction Jerry suggested allowed the successful forced landing. The original choice would not have given as good an option. It's your plane; your the PIC. Know thy self. Just because Van did it does not mean I would do it. Van is a very sharp pilot and he has way more RV time than I do. I have my margins, which are probably not the same as Van's or your's. Anyway congrats on the new property.

BTW 200 HP is not necessarily need. A constant speed prop is a good choice, it's my choice for my RV-7 (O360/Hartzell). Although it all helps, its not necessarily needed to get into and out of 800 ft. I assume you are near sea level?

(One complaint about Van's t/o and Ldg numbers? They give HP and weight, solo/gross but nothing else. I assume it's asphalt and constant speed prop? Anyone know? Any one do real takeoff and landing performance testing on their RV? I would suggest that Van's numbers are like those of any manufacture, ideal, done with a new plane by a test pilot ready to exercise max performance envelope.)
 
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Mel said:
My strip is 1500' packed white rock with clear approaches. In Texas in the summer time, I would not want any shorter. Density altitude and a cross wind make things interesting. You can see a picture on AirNav.com (8TA5).
Click to expand...

Nice Airport Mel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Thanks,
I need to rephrase; That is a railroad at the south end. If there is a train, then the approach to 35 is NOT totally clear. But you can see a couple of miles down the track from the air. Part of the pre-landing check.
 
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"Transition" training

If it were me, I would find an instructor I trust with an RV-7A(C/S) and lots of experience in this sort of field to come look it over. If that goes well, let him/her fly into it a few times. If they felt comfortable with it, I would get dual with them until I felt comfortable with it.
I too am a low time pilot, and that's the way I'm going to play it before I fly from the strip I practically live on. Even though the planes that use it look like they have way more room than they need, It's a one way strip with high tension towers/wires at the departure end.
The only sort of similar experience I've had with this was flying a 65hp Champ into the grass field I was soaring from. No problem - Citabrias pulled gliders out of there, and could have landed two or three times in the distance available. And I probably had 60-70 hours in my logbook, and 25-30 landings in a Champ, all on grass.
Well, I landed just a little long, just a little hot, and with weak heel brakes. That fence came up real fast, and even though I stopped 80-100ft short, it scared the bejesus out of me - not what I was expecting!
No harm, no foul, and nobody saw (field closed for the day), but I've been far less cavalier about my capabilities since then.
 
Hey John,

I'm no rookie in my RV, but I'm not an 'old hand' either - a few thousand landings. I consistantly land and stop in the first 1,300 feet of my home field's 3,000 runway - I have an AOA that it is my primary landing instrument. Slightly downhill and on asphalt, so I guess I could conceivably land in 800' on grass, but I'd suspect there would be no room at all for error.

The way I fly....there often is <g>.

Best,
Doug
 
John - further to my comment yesterday a c/s prop is a major advantage for landing. On an RV it does not make much economic sense since take off performance is good anyway. However operationg out of my strip I feel no alternative but to shell out for an MT prop for the purpose of stopping!

Steve
#4478
UK
 
My neighbor, a Cirrus guy, in an earlier conversation tonight says someone just rolled up an SR-22; landed on a dirt strip okay and then couldn't stop in time; decided to go around and hit the trees. IIRC

everyone walked away.
 
No

Hi guys,
I wholeheartedly agree with Mark and Mel. 800' is asking for trouble because no matter how hard I try with our 6A and 1046lbs empty, it's difficult to stop in under 1000' consistently.........the word to watch "consistently". I have 36 years of ag under my belt, do around 12 to 14 loads a day and even with 16,000 hours +, I still screw up some landings but I work off a 5000' paved runway. The reversible prop (PT6-680 HP) helps but the experience doesn't necessarily transfer to the RV. A typical characteristic of a short span/large chord (low aspect ratio) wing like the RVs, is that they bleed off airspeed rapidly during the flare and you'll splat and bounce if you're too slow or not quick enough to "catch it" during the flare. Then the problems start.

After you've built some time in your airplane, practice short field landings on a bigger paved runway....better yet, a grass runway, because you'll be surprised at how easily and far you'll slide the tires on wet dew! :eek:
Regards,
 
Drag it in using the flaps

I only have about 10 hours on a RV6 at this time and I would not want to try this, but the RV's have big flaps and with them fully extended you can work the prop against the flaps and really drag it in for a short field landing. Assuming you can have a clear approach you should be able to cut the throttle and put it on the "threshold" fairly reliably with practice, then you just have to stop.

That being said, the RV is a reasonably fast landing airplane, it does not want to sit in ground effect like a Piper. If you push it it will stall and drop a wing onto the pavement.... Not really what you want on a short strip IMO. I know Van does it but I think his numbers are a bit like Mr Cessna's.... best case and produced by experienced pilots on long tar strips.
 
Mel said:
My strip is 1500' packed white rock with clear approaches. In Texas in the summer time, I would not want any shorter. Density altitude and a cross wind make things interesting. You can see a picture on AirNav.com (8TA5).
Click to expand...

Mel,
I live in on the Denton side of 380 from you and I am thinking about moving since I want to either build a hangar home at an AirPark or the other option I'm considering is buyt 20 - 40 acres and putting in a private field and making a small airpark out of it (4-5) home sites. The big question I have is where you would investigate the laws around a private air field and the construction of it.

Thanks
Frank
"In the I'm thinking of building an RV-10 Phase" :cool:
 
John,

Sounds like a good plan. That part of Michigan is very nice and lake Michigan is not far away. I hope the move goes well.

Regarding the runway, Western Michigan University has a very good aviation department and they are based there in Battle Creek. (FYI, the main campus is in Kalamazoo.) Not only do they teach kids how to be pilots, A&P's, etc. but they also have a degree in airport management. (Or they did 20+ years ago when I went there.) You could ask them what is required to turn your property into an airport. Heck, they might even make it a class project, file all the forms, etc. for nothing but the cost of the paperwork.
 
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The take-off is probably not a problem, if there are no obstacles, and you don't need to go out heavy on a hot day. But, it would probably get ugly if you ever had to abort a take-off. A minor failure that would be a non-event on another strip could cause a major accident on this strip (e.g. dragging brake as someone else mentioned, engine starts running rough as you near rotation speed, etc).

As far as the landings go, if you did a lot of practice, and you only flew on days with good wind conditions, dry grass, etc, you could probably get it stopped in 800 ft most of the time. But, most of the time isn't good enough.

This isn't the right piece of land to build a strip for an RV-7, in my opinion, unless your neighbor lets you add several hundred more feet. How long could the strip be if your neighbor helped out? Would it still be clear of obstacles on each end?
 
OK, it's probably too short...

OK, thanks all for your comments. It seems to me that it would be too short a space to land in reliably. But it was worth a try to see if it could be done.

I have to admit, I keep thinking of crazy ways I could make this work... like maybe putting an arresting net off one side of the runway. I know it sounds crazy but what if I had a pair of nets held up by a light plastic frame. The nets are made out of rubber straps and detach from the plastic frame when the airplane flies through them. The two nets are spaced several feet apart so that the prop passes between them. The nets are then attached to some weighted sleds with short bungee cords. The idea is that as I would land, I would steer for the nets, aiming the nose between them. As the plane contacts the nets, they detach from the frame and pull on the wings. The bungee cords cushion the shock of pulling the sleds, which then retard the forward motion of the airplane.

I could see reinforcing the leading edges of the wings and moving the pitot tube somewhere where it wouldn't get damaged.

If one were to position this device at the far end of the (short) runway, then it would also act as a benign crash barrier for an aborted take off.

Or, I could just get a hanger at the local airport and fly like a normal person.
 
Good move!

"Or, I could just get a hanger at the local airport and fly like a normal person"

BTW: Doug and a few others.....It's HANGAR, not hanGER :D
 
Spelling

pierre smith said:
"Or, I could just get a hanger at the local airport and fly like a normal person"

BTW: Doug and a few others.....It's HANGAR, not hanGER :D
Click to expand...


Sorry, the shock of the landing forces caused me to misspell.
 
I don't know.....After repeatedly landing on such a short strip it may be a HANGER!
 
Farmer's field

JohnBabrick said:
OK, thanks all for your comments. It seems to me that it would be too short a space to land in reliably. But it was worth a try to see if it could be done.
Click to expand...
You mentioned that you might be able to get a bit more land from the farmer next door. That might be your best bet.

Another option is that since you are only at the empennage stage, you could switch to an RV9 - it has about 16% lower stall speed at gross, and therefore a shorter landing distance (450ft vs. 500ft).

Final option is to build the RV12 (when it comes out) and sell your RV7.

If you get a lot of snow up there, then there might be a big advantage to being at a paved airport, assuming they blow off the snow. It'd be a shame not be able to fly when there is snow on the ground.
 
rv8ch said:
You mentioned that you might be able to get a bit more land from the farmer next door. That might be your best bet.
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I would agree with this option. If it is an option, your best bet would be to buy some land off of the farmer next door and extend the runway. Even if it involves dozing down some trees and doing some dirtwork it might be worth the effort.

As for the arresting nets! :( Well, you might find that no matter how softly you find yourself contacting those nets they are going to create more damage to your aircraft than you would ever be willing to accept. The best case scenario may involve some paint scuffing but do you really wish to fly yourself into a "fish net" on every landing? I would think it would make for some very nerve wracking landings for sure.
 
My experience in Italy with RV-7

I sometimes land and take off with my RV-7 in an grass airstripe that is 360 meters long (around 1000 ft) with a ditch at the beggining and end of the runway. I think that I use 3/5 of it and I'm relaxed if:
-The grass is dry
-I'm solo
-Cross wind is a negative factor but generally if it is not 75?-90? to the direction of the runway, it turns out that is a positive factor.

Note that there is only one way to do that, in my opinion, and it is mastering very slow flight at good height, with differente temperature, weight, CG... i did that for many hours, in real many many configurations.

To land below 800 ft, you need to approach at very low speed, in my aircraft, I keep in short final 56-60 knots (depending on weght), no abrupt aileron/rudder input with a strong & fast hand on throtlle and paying a lot of attention, it is relative easy to become "short" on the elevator.

I have a Sensenich prop that does not help, especially on take off, I realized that the RV-7 with Sensenich is really LONG if the airstripe is very soft grass (after, for example, many days of rain) and you are gross.

ciao
 
The nets are made out of rubber straps and detach from the plastic frame when the airplane flies through them. The two nets are spaced several feet apart so that the prop passes between them. The nets are then attached to some weighted sleds with short bungee cords. The idea is that as I would land, I would steer for the nets, aiming the nose between them. As the plane contacts the nets, they detach from the frame and pull on the wings. The bungee cords cushion the shock of pulling the sleds, which then retard the forward motion of the airplane.
Click to expand...

A tailhook and arresting cables! How cool would that be!?
 
Turbine

A reverse-thrust turbine. I own one. It's only money plus you'll be able to back up as I can. See my post on Innodyne turbines today. :D
 
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