N8RV

N8RV

Well Known Member
Although I've had my hurdles and hiccups along my lengthy and sometimes arduous building path, I've managed to make it this far (with a little help from some friends). OK, a LOT of help from one friend in particular ("Out of the blue of the Texas sky comes SKY KING!").

Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that I HATE working with composite. Hate it with a passion. I can think of no redeeming qualities of this goo. I would rather be chained to a cold, metal chair and be forced to watch streaming videos of Ted Kennedy and Helen Thomas in naked, passionate embrace than to work with composite (could there BE a more revolting mental image?). THAT'S how much I hate the stuff!

I used to think that people made their first flights without wheel pants because they didn't want to go really fast during the test phase. WRONG! They're just the smart ones who know that they'd NEVER fly if they started working on those stupid things.

Harrumph.

Anybody HATE composite more than I?
 
You think you hate composites building an -8, building a -10 I though I was through the worst with the cabin top, only to then have to deal with the doors. This is the primary reason my progress has been slow of late. I'm not motivated to work on composites.

Oh, I'm with you....
 
+1 Probably not!

I would rather be chained to a cold, metal chair and be forced to watch streaming videos of Ted Kennedy and Helen Thomas in naked, passionate embrace than to work with composite (could there BE a more revolting mental image?). THAT'S how much I hate the stuff!

I used to think that people made their first flights without wheel pants because they didn't want to go really fast during the test phase. WRONG! They're just the smart ones who know that they'd NEVER fly if they started working on those stupid things.

Harrumph.

Anybody HATE composite more than I?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I don't much care for composite work either but it's part of the learning process. On my day job I do maintenance on UAVs and part of the course was composite. It's not too bad although I sure don't care for the detail involved with prepping it for paint. If I'm not mistaken, a lot of the people, (myself included) go without wheel and gear leg fairings initially in order to create more drag and load the engine better for break-in. After 10-12 hours I installed the fairings and got an honest 13 knots of increase in speed. So, as much as they may suck, they make a **** of a difference! Build on!

BTW, the picture you painted re: Kennedy and Thomas made me run to the bathroom for some Pepto!
 
I love it, the stuff just does whatever you want it do, and if you screw it up... cut the bad part off and do again!
 
Built a Vari-eze and fibreglass is just another thing to be learned, also built a cassutt--steel tubing and fabric is also a learning curve---all have advantages and down sides----have you ever dropped a tool on alum and expressed anger? Dropping on fibreglass is no big deal, although the dust is bad.-- bld a rv-9 and first alum work and find it very unforgiving to mistakes. But all the same, it is ALL enjoyable and keeps me out of the taverns !!:D
 
You must be one with the fiberglass.

I realized how good the stuff was after helping a friend make this transition for his oil cooler. We formed it at 9PM, he took it home add fiberglass, and then installed it the next morning.

 
I worked w composites a little in an EAA course a few years back. It seemed to go okay, and was surpisingly strong for just foam, cloth, filler and goo.

More than once I've wanted to do some composite trailing edges, but lacking plans, drawings, and experience, I know better than to over-experiment w my experimental a/c.

Re the kennedy/thomas image, that's a true cringer.

(It's a good thing you aren't building a Lancair.)
 
Fiberglass and Doctors

N8RV said:
I used to think that people made their first flights without wheel pants because they didn't want to go really fast during the test phase. WRONG! They're just the smart ones who know that they'd NEVER fly if they started working on those stupid things.

Harrumph.

Anybody HATE composite more than I?
Click to expand...

I have been very frustrated, yes, but I have not hated.

Some materials are not pleasant to work with.

PM me and I will send you my Sam James Fiberglass video DVD.

I would rather make a fairing from scratch than re-seal my fuel tanks.

Composites are like going to the physician, your not looking forward to,
it needs to be done,
but it will probably involve some sort of latex or vinyl gloves.:eek:
 
The right composite done the right way

Gotta love composites!

Done right, composites need minimal fill and prep work for paint. Unfortunatly, this requries capabilities outside of the homebuilders reach and budget, so it is a trade off between cost and manual labor to finish.

Try doing this with an aluminum panel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DE8LZcZgn4&feature=related The epoxy in this panel is so tough, there is no significant hidden damage until a surface dent is evident, unlike the basic epoxies and polyesters we use on our RV's.

Also, you can't do this with metal, a one-piece fuselage section with no longitudinal joints, eliminating joint fatigue issues: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDqxnahwbk

On the metal side, if there are 10,000 holes, that means drill 10,000 holes, deburr at least 40,000 sides (2 sides for each piece to be joined), 20,000 dimples, and finally 10,000 rivets. By the time you are done, there are about 80,000 holes (assuming all are dimpled)
 
And don't forget, working with composites forces your shop to be at ~70F all the time while you are working :)

Ryan
 
It is a lot like sculpting

osxuser said:
I love it, the stuff just does whatever you want it do, and if you screw it up... cut the bad part off and do again!
Click to expand...

I built an RV because I did not want to work with composites (plus the other 500 reason why an RV is the best plane to build). I would not go as far as saying I love it but it does have several great qualities and very rewarding when completed. The RV has great looks and the sheet metal alone gives it it's classic Van's design appeareance. The fiberglass work gives the plane a little of the builder's flair just like the paint scheme does. Looking at someone's fiberglass work tells you a bit about the builder's creativity and craftsmenship.

Back on topic, I found you need to be one with the fiberglass. Do not fight it. Just mold and create. If you do not like it cut it off, sand on it, add a few more plies, or start over. Get yourself the pumps that dispense the right amout of resign and catylist, stir well, let the fabric drap naturally, and spread using a plastic coated playing card. (I used a deck I had from Hooter's so I spread the goo with the back of the card facing up to see the Hooter girl in her swimsuit) Do what ever it takes to help make the process enjoyable.

I did all my fiberglass work in the cold unheated hanger of a January in STL. I used a lot of heat lamps to help it cure. I completed the work before painting and first flight but flew for the first 10 hours with out them (as indicated above to add drag and load the engine for break-in). Until you have the fiberglass work installed I do not believe you get the full satisfaction of completing a RV. You never fell like you are done. Press with the fiberglass work as in the end it will be rewarding.
 
Last edited:
Best Description

GAHco said:
Composites are like going to the physician, your not looking forward to,
it needs to be done,
but it will probably involve some sort of latex or vinyl gloves.:eek:
Click to expand...
Quote of the day. Heck, maybe quote of the week. (Will not be quote of the year as I am sure a politician will be able to say something even more amusing)
 
Last edited:
Thanks to those who chimed in. Glad to see that I'm not entirely alone in my frustration. Obviously, most of my tirade was said tongue-in-cheek. I mean, seriously, I would MUCH rather mess with this goo than have to watch EITHER Kennedy or Thomas. Or Madaline Albright. Or Janet Reno. You get my drift.

Thanks for the offer of the Sam James DVD. I already have it, albeit on VHS (I don't think DVDs had been invented when I bought it!). I've watched George Orndorff's construction videos on working with compost. I even played with the stuff at Oshkosh a couple of times. And here's the kicker: I BOUGHT PLANS TO BUILD A COZY (before I started my RV)! Lucky for me, I wised up and sold those plans long ago.

Thanks again for the commiseration. Time to get back to the shop and play with that confounded stuff some more ... :(
 
In all seriousness, I'm not a fan of the process. I don't like working with liquids, and I found out the hard way what composite planes are like, helping my cousin get a Vari-Eze back into the air with a Berkut nose, Roncz canard, and fuselage side windows.

Of course, I'm definitely a fan of the results. Unless you're a mad wizard, getting shapes like that out of metal isn't practical.
 
w1curtis said:
You think you hate composites building an -8, building a -10 I though I was through the worst with the cabin top, only to then have to deal with the doors. This is the primary reason my progress has been slow of late. I'm not motivated to work on composites.

Oh, I'm with you....
Click to expand...

I guess I need to make some time for prodding.
Sorry I've been busy and not been able to help out.
Talk to you soon.
Keith
 
It's all about attitude....whistle while you work. I don't really like fiberglass work. I like what you can do with it, and find the end product worth the tedium.

These are plugs. They're a composite part you build so you can build a composite part.

 
Last edited:
The only problem I have with composite is that I can't have any color I want on the plane. That really restrict ark work choices, but not a show stopper.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.