S

Stalldog

Well Known Member
Getting ready to set up my workshop this weekend, which means tools and and an emp kit are soon to follow. Been planning to attend a builders class somewhere, and probably will, but knowing me, once the kit arrives I'll want to start doing something. From what I've been reading here and in the 7 manual, I'm concerned about riveting.

So, could you give me some input as to how hard this is to learn? How do you know when you've done it wrong? A local friend suggested I order Van's small wing section kit to learn on, and maybe that's what I need to do. What did the rest of you do?
 
I just took the RV assembly class this weekend. Riveting is not hard but I am glad I had hands on experience from the class. If you don't get the class I would HIGHLY recommend visiting a local builder who can show you a few things in a few hours in exchange for some "work".
 
Practice on the scraps in the trim bundle. It gets easier with each rivet you set, and you'll be an expert by the time you finish the tail. Squeeze as many as you can, since that is much easier than bucking.

I had my kids help me with the wing skins, and they picked up the technique of running the rivet gun in about 2 minutes. Riveting solo is much easier because you get instant feedback and know when to start/stop.
 
Timing

Riveting takes feel and 'timing', and you can actually 'hear' the rivet change pitch as it 'sets' if you listen carefully. Like a musician, practice, practice, practice and you'll get the feel and the timing down in no time.
sk
 
Rivet Practice

Been planning to attend a builders class somewhere, and probably will, but knowing me, once the kit arrives I'll want to start doing something.
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I agree. The RV Assembly class is a great place to start. If you are in a hurry to get going before taking the class;
- Inventory all the parts
- Get organized and put rivets into a wall mounted bin, separated by sizes
- Deburr all the edges in the empennage kit
- Purchase and build the practice kit to set rivets on something that doesn't count. After all, the practice kit is what you work on in the EAA RV Assembly class.
- or just forge ahead and learn as you go. You can always buy a replacement part if you mess up on something. (ps - that happens to ALL of us at some point in time)
 
I practiced on some scrap and started building. I get better rivets with the gun than by squeezing them. That takes a bit of practice, but you'll get there. Start with a low pressure and turn it up as you get comfortable.
 
pmccoy said:
I agree. The RV Assembly class is a great place to start. If you are in a hurry to get going before taking the class;
- Inventory all the parts
- Get organized and put rivets into a wall mounted bin, separated by sizes
- Deburr all the edges in the empennage kit
- Purchase and build the practice kit to set rivets on something that doesn't count. After all, the practice kit is what you work on in the EAA RV Assembly class.
- or just forge ahead and learn as you go. You can always buy a replacement part if you mess up on something. (ps - that happens to ALL of us at some point in time)
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Pete, excellent points. I suppose there will be plenty to do before I begin riveting.

One question, though, even with the practice kit, how do you know when you've made a bad rivet, or a good one?
 
Good rivet; bad rivet

Stalldog said:
One question, though, even with the practice kit, how do you know when you've made a bad rivet, or a good one?
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Van's Construction manual has a chapter with lots of pictures on how to do various tasks. There are pics/drawings of good and bad rivets. Get a copy of the AC 43.13. It has lots of data on riveting and just about everything else you'd ever want to know.
Get a digital camera and learn how to upload pix to this forum. You'll not find a better source of help. Often folks will upload a picture and one of the very taleted folks here will provide a step by step recovery procedure.
Finally, search these forums. Just about every question you can come up with has been asked and answered herein.
Good luck,
Don
 
Thanks again to everyone for the good info. I'll do some more digging and order the practice kit with the emp. Prepare to see some rivets within the next week or two!!! :D
 
Stalldog said:
but knowing me, once the kit arrives I'll want to start doing something.
Click to expand...

Stalldog said:
One question, though, even with the practice kit, how do you know when you've made a bad rivet, or a good one?
Click to expand...

Answer to both issues: take a build class, formal or informal. I'm sure you want to get building right away, but you have a long build ahead of you and lot of expensive parts to potentially mess up and then have to wonder whether you should push-on or order new parts and start over. Waiting until you have the right tools or right skills is part of the self-discipline required to successfully build an RV. Besides, you'll get so much more enjoyment out of the build if you know you're doing it right rather than wondering if you're doing it right. Plus, the class is fun.
Good luck.
 
Stalldog said:
Anyone have any closeup pics of good and bad rivets, or is there a site you could point me to?
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Since most of the rivets are either 3/32" or 1/8" and they should have a shop head (the head that you make) that is 50% larger than the starting size, get a piece of scrap and drill a 9/64" hole in one end and an 3/16" hole in the other end. This will be your "Rivet gauge". The shop head of the 3/32" rivet should fill the 9/64" hole snugly and likewise the 1/8" rivet shop head should fill the 3/16" hole. If they don't, drive them some more.

A common problem seems to be that some guys don't hold the bucking bar perpendicular to the rivet, resulting in a bent-over rivet...so get familiar with what truly perpendicular looks like. Rivets are cheap, so practice a lot.

Best,
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
Answer to both issues: take a build class, formal or informal.
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Agree completely, Steve. Last thing I want to do is waste time and money and building a poorly constructed RV. That's been part of my concern -- if my butt's sitting in the plane, I want to be sure it's been constructed to stay in the air! Besides, wife wants to attend a class, too, so we'll be doing that for sure.
 
pierre smith said:
Since most of the rivets are either 3/32" or 1/8" and they should have a shop head (the head that you make) that is 50% larger than the starting size, get a piece of scrap and drill a 9/64" hole in one end and an 3/16" hole in the other end. This will be your "Rivet gauge". The shop head of the 3/32" rivet should fill the 9/64" hole snugly and likewise the 1/8" rivet shop head should fill the 3/16" hole. If they don't, drive them some more.

A common problem seems to be that some guys don't hold the bucking bar perpendicular to the rivet, resulting in a bent-over rivet...so get familiar with what truly perpendicular looks like. Rivets are cheap, so practice a lot.

Best,
Click to expand...

Thank you, Pierre, I'll do just that. Guess I'd better also learn how to drill out a bad one!
 
Stalldog said:
Guess I'd better also learn how to drill out a bad one!
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or two....or three.....;)

Riveting is something they taught to a lot of previously unskilled folks back in the early 40's. You'll pick it up pretty fast, and before you know it you'll be creating your own specialized techniques for those awkward places.

Paul
 
Have you watched the EAA builder videos?

I believe they have a riveting 101 video.

Some good stuff on there.
 
I would suggest you buy the practice kit and keep working on those until you feel good about your riveting skills. I took the EAA class, and built 2 of the practice kits. I still made too many mistakes in the early going on my empennage. I'm done with it now, and I'm just starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. It takes time to develope your skill. Its not hard but you wind up with lots of different situations that you need to figure out how to deal with during the assembly. The main thing that I've found is you need to be patient and not feel like you "have" to get this done. Once you get in that mode you are going to do something stupid that you are sorry about. Take it from me. :D
 
FresnoR said:
Have you watched the EAA builder videos?

I believe they have a riveting 101 video.

Some good stuff on there.
Click to expand...

Heck, FresnoR, I didn't even know there were builder videos on the EAA site. Just checked it out, and WOW. Thanks for the tip! ;)
 
larrynew said:
Van's has an excellent MIL SPEC document on their website http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/Specs.htm. I used this along with a micrometer until I got the hang of riveting. I wanted to know the actual limits for rivets. I now use the Avery Shop Head Rivet Gauges and I know how much +/- I can be from the gauges.
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Thanks for the link, Larry. I've looked all over Van's website for something like this, but even now I still couldn't find it. I've got their 7 manual, but this spec is far better.
 
I suggest practicing several different methods of riveting. Here are a few along with good places to use them.

Flat steel plate on bench and the rivet gun
- This works well with the AN470 rivets (dome head) in the VS and HS spars
- Also nice with AN426 rivets (flush head) when used for backriveting elevator stiffeners

Backriveting (rivet gun on shop head)
- I used this method almost everywhere I could get the rivet gun on the shop head of a rivet. It really works well on the outer skins, elevator stiffeners, etc. and produces a much flatter surface than standard riveting
- A long backrivet set worked really well for the top wing skins and fuselage skins
- Make sure you get a nice backrivet bucking bar (round)

C-frame Riveting
- This is a good method if you have parts that fit. I used it on a few small assemblies
- Pretty easy to keep everything perpendicular with this method

Standard Flush Riveting (rivet gun on manufactured head)
- This can be tricky to keep the gun from walking, but the key is to make sure your rivet gun and bucking bar are perpendicular to the riveting surface. Takes practice, but you get the hang of it.
- You will use this method a lot especially for closing out wing and empennage skins


Greg
RV-7
 
Musicians

Wally at Synergy Air told me one of the best riveters he ever trained was a musician, could hear the beat of how long to hit each rivet...makes some sense.
 
You wont be alone!!

Stalldog,

You will require a helper at times to hold the bucking bar or operate the rivet gun.

Make sure that they also get enough practice to produce a good rivet outcome.
 
Stalldog said:
Getting ready to set up my workshop this weekend, which means tools and and an emp kit are soon to follow. Been planning to attend a builders class somewhere, and probably will, but knowing me, once the kit arrives I'll want to start doing something. From what I've been reading here and in the 7 manual, I'm concerned about riveting.

So, could you give me some input as to how hard this is to learn? How do you know when you've done it wrong? A local friend suggested I order Van's small wing section kit to learn on, and maybe that's what I need to do. What did the rest of you do?
Click to expand...

I second the notion of attending a builder's class or working with a local builder. After my one day class with Wally Anderson where we all built the Van's aforementioned airfoil section, I came away feeling very confident that,"Yeah, I can do this!!." All of the different riveting techniques are used in the course of building the airfoil section.

I picked up my empennage kit from Van's 3 days later and flew my -7A 1-1/2 years later in June 2005.

Riveting struck me as similar to painting in that most of the work is in the preparation. After you measure and mark (if necessary), cleco, drill, move clecos to drilled holes, remove clecos, deburr, countersink or dimple, and cleco again, the actual riveting is rather anti-climactic. Of course, practice makes perfect, or as close as you can get.

My little airfoil section remains a prized possession, because that's where it all stated.

Good luck,

Mike
 
Buy a 1,000 inch caliper

Harbor Freight sells and inexpensive but very useful 1,000 inch caliper.
I use it often to measure driven rivets and material thickness.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-dial-caliper-66541.html

The important part of riveting is maintaining the spec. National Aerospace Standard maintains the following spec. The height of the driven rivet on the shop end (created in the shop) has a min and max height. The diam. only has a min. If you have the correct size rivet of length outside of the material prior to squashing and you maintain the height requirements, you will have no problem maintaining the min diam.

On another note, if you do a poll on this site of builders? favorite tools, pneumatic squeezers and Tungsten bucking bars often come out on top.
MHO is that these are WELL worth the money through the course of the project for the amount you will use them. More importantly, they will greatly help you maintain rivet specs. Write these numbers down on your work bench! Rivet gauges are useful tools, but know what rules they are based from.

3/32 Rivet
min diam: 0.122
min height: 0.038
max height: 0.050

1/8 Rivet
min diam: 0.163
Min height: 0.050
Max height: 0.070
 
One more point.

I neglected to add, if you want smooth skins around your flush rivets, use a swivel head on your gun, dial the pressure back to 35 psi (aprox. 3x gun) and make sure that you apply more pressure than you think to create the dimple. Otherwise you will get deformation in the skin around the rivet.

I learned this when dimpling my side skins, the dimples i created near the edge with my pneumatic squeezer had no deformation, compared to the center dimples i created with a hammer and c-frame. I ended up re-dimpling
Using a steel hammer instead of a rubber one, giving it a much firmer whack, and made sure the c-frame was on a firm hard surface. Made all the difference in the world. You can see any deformation in the skin around the dimple prior to riveting in an under driven dimple.
 
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