grantcarruthers

grantcarruthers

Well Known Member
Well I have yet to find a source of ETOH free premium so I am looking at the next best option I can think of. I called the nearest field, KGRE, that has premium mogas and explained my situation. They were kind enough to provide their suppliers info. He in turn is more than happy to make home deliveries but he is far enough away that he would like me to have a 500 gallon tank to make the trip worth while. Waiting for quotes on the tank right now. Living on 6 acres in the country will allow for this, at least

Depending on the expense of the tank I may break even on the 1st 500 gallons as I was quoted 4.22 on the 93 octane and 100ll is now 6.30 on my home field. This about par to 5-10 cents cheaper for the local going rate. So not saving much against local premium but since it's ETOH free it's the only option I can come up with.

Other benefits, 2 of my 4 motorcycles require premium so they can fuel from it too and get better mileage due to the absence of the ETOH (not a huge difference but noticable). Might even run the car on it too as the .25 cents over local regular price will come close to par on price after the mileage improvement (just a break even really).

Just posting this up as our states and soon fed move to require ETOH in our gas station fuel, this may become an option more of you mogasers want to consider. If the supplier happened to be closer I could quite cheaply get a 250 gallon tank which are quite common on farms around here. Heck, for that matter you could likely get 100LL if that's your flavor although I don't know what kind of savings you would see there or how supportive of your local FBO you care to be (might be harder to get due to environment concerns). I for one have a plane which runs better without the lead (so far, high temp summer tests continue for vapor lock issue and as CHT's rise with ambient).

Safety, quality of storage, and transport to the airport are issues to be considered but I just wanted to let those of you interrested know that wholesale fuel delivery is an option.
 
Farm fuel ------------ there are tax breaks for farm fuel that you may want to look into.

Just dont use it for on road vehicles.

At least that is how things are here on the left coast, but I think it is a federal thing.
 
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I've read somewhere that MOGAS (probably other fuels as well) has a shelf life of about 30 days. You may want to consider that in your purchase decision.
 
Definately check out the shelf life, but if it is in a tank, I doubt it will have a shelf life problem. Maybe if it were in a gas can. I know several guys that have their own tank. They filled it up when gas was cheap. and because they are the only ones flying off it, it takes them a while to burn off 500 gallons. They all seemed happy with the situation.
 
A more common problem would be condensation inside the tank.

Be sure you have a water trap in the dispensing line.
 
The price quote leads me to believe that auto taxes we're included in the price but I agree I need to check. I need to ask what the price is without road taxes vs aviation taxes if it's an option.

Water traps are part of the plan of course but good to mention for those not aware of the need.
 
jmartinez443 said:
I've read somewhere that MOGAS (probably other fuels as well) has a shelf life of about 30 days. You may want to consider that in your purchase decision.
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Either the EAA or AOPA had an article on the shelf life of fuel some time back.

If I remember correctly, 100LL was good for two years and regular MOGAS was good for one year. Ever since I heard that I stopped "winterizing" my toys, mowers, etc. and have not had any problem come spring.
 
Nice tips, thanks. The boaters fuel caddy is a bit pricey but looks like a nice product. I don't know that the portability would be a big asset though and will more than likely go with a smaller transfer tank like set up. Honestly the amounts I'll likely transfer (10-20 gallons at a time) would not be hard to do with basic gas cans and a funnel. I don't want to cart around a transfer tank all the time but we'll see (fuel and vapor sloshing around doesn't sound too ideal and I wouldn't be able to get the motorcycles loaded for the track with a transfer tank mounted as it should be). I have some new uncontaminated/dedicated 5 gallon cans that I'll start with if this takes off. If it seems time/effort efficient enough I'll stick with that. If it's a pain I'll look into something more $$sophisticated$$ later (maybe that boaters caddy isn't such a bad idea). Sounds like a pain to many people but waiting for the fuel truck or taxiing to the pumps and dealing with the card reader takes just as much time as pouring 2-4 cans of gas will (I think??:rolleyes:). Time will tell.
 
racing fuel can

Since your avatar is a m/c rr pic, you should be able to do what I did; go the track and get an empty race fuel drum for free. Some of these are dispensed from 55 gallon drums and some come in about 25 gallon drums, and even some 15 gallon drums. For my Challenger II needing pre-mix, I used a 15 gallon drum I got for free at NHIS. For my RV, probably the 55 gal size would be good. Lots of guys buy the race fuel, then discard the drum after they've used up the fuel in it. Talk to the fuel vendor at the track, or any of the top guys who are using racing fuel. Motorcycle roadracing is what you want, cuz car racing uses higher volumes than is practical using the drums, and most other m/c racing doesn't bother with getting into racing fuels.

To pump the fuel out (or back in if necessary), you can use an old m/c battery and an electric fuel pump. I happened to have a NOS Holley electric fuel pump from my old car hotrodding days in the 70s, so I built my whole fuel transfer system for nothing out of pocket.

To move the drum around the hangar, I just set it onto a furniture dolly with 4 swivel wheels.

The drums are all steel, so you're not going to get the octane loss & loss of higher volatiles like you would with a plastic can. With plastic, the lighter hydrocarbons will seep out through the plastic over time.
 
Transfer tanks

I've been using plastic gas cans to fuel my Subaru powered plane. My plan is to eventually get a small (38 gal) transfer tank and pump for my pickup. But the gas cans haven't been a super pain, so I'm in no big hurry to spend the money for a fancier setup. Having a low wing helps for sure.
Most of the transfer tanks say they are not for flammable fuels (gasoline). They are 'legal' only for diesel fuel, but I know lots of folks use them for gas anyway. I have found one place that has tanks that are certified for gas: www.atitank.com I don't know what the differences are, if any. The fuel pumps are good for gas. Go figure.
The problem I see with the gas caddy's (which are rated for gas) is that they are too big to handle when full, and the hand-crank pumps are terrible. I had a student who had one (for a Rotax powered SLA) and I'd rather use 5 gal cans than that pump.
I tried to go to the CAFE fuel safety link - but was 'forbidden' - do you need to join to get to that link?
 
I use a FillRite 12VDC pump on a 55 gallon drum to fill the Cessna. I put it in the back of the pickup truck when I need it, and slide it out onto a storage platform when I don't.
The guy at the end of the hanger block uses a 55 gallon drum that he pressurizes with an air compressor to a few PSI, and that is enough to lift the fuel to the top of his Cessna. His drum is on its' side with a special bung brazed on top for filling.
I used to gravitate from a 55 gallon drum into a low wing plane I had. I built a stand to hold the drum horizontal, and about a foot above the pickup bed. The large bung was at the top (of the end), and the hose connected to the 3/4" bung at the bottom. You can only get about 45 gallons in the drum while it is on its' side, but my RV-8 only holds 42, so I'll probably build another like it.
Spring release fuel valve on hose, ground bonding wire, fire extinguisher et al
 
The short answer is;

DGlaeser said:
Most of the transfer tanks say they are not for flammable fuels (gasoline). They are 'legal' only for diesel fuel, but I know lots of folks use them for gas anyway. I have found one place that has tanks that are certified for gas: www.atitank.com I don't know what the differences are, if any. The fuel pumps are good for gas.
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Smog laws.

For those who care, long answer is;

Modern autos use an air pump to check for leaks in the fuel tank system, with a sensor that reads pressure loss---------kinda like doing a compression check on the plane-------and if the transfer tank isnt correctly installed, including all vent lines ETC, the OBDII will give a fault due to the way it reads the transfer tank pressure.

A 60 gal transfer tank that is half full will look like a big leak to the test system-----just too much volume to pressurize in the alloted time.
 
Mike S said:
Smog laws.
For those who care, long answer is;
Modern autos use an air pump to check for leaks in the fuel tank system, with a sensor that reads pressure loss---------kinda like doing a compression check on the plane-------and if the transfer tank isnt correctly installed, including all vent lines ETC, the OBDII will give a fault due to the way it reads the transfer tank pressure.
A 60 gal transfer tank that is half full will look like a big leak to the test system-----just too much volume to pressurize in the alloted time.
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I believe it is Aux tanks that are part of the vehicle fuel system, but Transfer tanks are not, they just sit in the back of the truck. I'm sure venting and roll over protection requirements are different for gas vs. diesel.
 
DGlaeser said:
I believe it is Aux tanks that are part of the vehicle fuel system, but Transfer tanks are not, they just sit in the back of the truck. I'm sure venting and roll over protection requirements are different for gas vs. diesel.
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You are probably correct, Aux vs Transfer tanks.

I had looked into this about 3 years ago, and the above is what was explained to my by the only vendor I could find who still did aux tanks for gas..........

http://www.transferflow.com/toolbox_tanks_0.html

I really liked their system, but the $$$ was:eek::eek:
 
That looks expensive!

If your going to save money by transporting your own fuel, you will have to build your own system, just like you built your airplane.
Otherwise, 5 gallon containers work.
 
I know one thing the transfer tanks lack that my supplier said was an issue is baffles to decrease sloshing. He cautioned against driving around with fuel sloshing away. One spark, which isn't hard to find with static electricity, and it's a bad day. That said you don't hear about many pick'em'up trucks blowing up and I see transfer tanks daily around here. And I'd guess many don't contain diesel but who knows.

Thanks Brian for the lost octane in plastic, didn't know that one. I'm going to Chicago Autobahn on the 23rd, I'll look for some fuel drums there, good idea using those. I could go to a machine shop and have some fittings welded on to ease hose attachment (I'm hoping to just gravity feed, god bless the low wing design:D). Could be a cheap option and light when empty to yank off the truck.

I'm pretty sure my hanger lease doesn't allow for fuel storage in the hanger (as if the plane is empty so what the hecks the difference but what can I do). Otherwise I'd get the 500 gallon tank installed there!!:D Another reason to build a strip someday and keep flying RV's that can get out of 1500 ft of grass!:D

Geico, I like the used diesel truck tank idea, I'll have to look up a salvage yard and post back prices. Nice size and already plumbed at least partially. Heck, if they're cheap enough I can have 5 100 gallon tanks for the home storage site. Have a mini tank farm. It'll be kind of cute!!
 
Holy Cow!

Mike S said:
I had looked into this about 3 years ago, and the above is what was explained to my by the only vendor I could find who still did aux tanks for gas..........
http://www.transferflow.com/toolbox_tanks_0.html
I really liked their system, but the $$$ was:eek::eek:
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You aren't kidding about the $$$$$$...
At least the ATI tanks (atitank.com) are somewhat reasonable, and they're the only ones I've found that advertise legal for gas. Here is what they sent me a year ago:
TTR38-$376 TTR50-$386 TTR51-$395 The 38,50 will ship for around 60$ the 51 woould probably be around $120 (I'm sure the shipping is more these days.)
Building your own may save a few bucks, if you had the equipment to do so, and the knowledge on how to do the safety stuff (venting, rollover protection, ...) correctly - which I don't.
A pump/nozzle is another $200 or so, and a meter is another $150 or more.
So my 5 gal cans still look pretty good, and probably will for a while.
 
Called a salvage yard and it's $1.50 a gallon so a 100 gallon tank is $150. A 50 gallon tank at $75 sounds **** doable. Good size and certainly cheap enough.

Don't need a meter, hose can be quite less than the industrial types at gas stations. Good cost savings to be had in both areas but good to know the costs should one want those items DG.
 
Kitplanes article

I remember reading an article in Kitplanes? about a DIY fueling station based on a Harbor Freight utility trailer. Has anyone seen or know what issues of Kitplanes this article is in?
Charlie Kuss
 
Cheap, Legal, Easy

55 gallon steel drums are legal containers for gasoline. Oil companys sell gasoline and racing alcohol in them all the time.
Harbor frieght and others sell hand trucks for barrels that tilt horizontal for decanting.
You need a way to secure it in your pickup truck. You need a hose with a valve, a ground wire and a fire extinguisher.
No pump required.
Cheap, Legal, Easy.
 
Just curious what is dangerous about fueling from a 55 gal drum? I must be missing something:confused:
 
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