cbrown747

Active Member
i just received an estimate from aopa insurance on what it might cost for insurance for the rv-9a and rv-10. I am trying to get a good idea of the true operating cost comparisons between the rv-9a and rv-10.

I am trying to see how far apart the cost of ownership is between the two.
RV-9A....about $2200/yr...$75k hull
RV10.....about $3600/yr....$120k hull

I gave them my credentials of approximatly 250 hours and sgl engine, private pilot.

Is this realistic? This seems crazy. My insurance for just liability for a cessna 150 was only about $250/yr.
 
seems a bit on the high........

side. $1,800/ yr $105,000 hull here. been with aopa for 10 yrs. keep trying.
 
Yes, I would say that's high but there are lots of factor involved. The first year for a homebuilt is quite expensive.

If you really want to know, call NationAir and ask to speak to Jenny Estes.
 
Falcon Insurance

I've been with Falcon Insurance for two years+, EAAs backing and incentives. Best rates with zero deductable. Had a claim this year and they were AWESOME and still reduced my rate for this year. Considerably cheaper than the others mentioned, for me anyway.

I like 'em!
 
I've been with Falcon Insurance for two years+, EAAs backing and incentives. Best rates with zero deductable. Had a claim this year and they were AWESOME and still reduced my rate for this year. Considerably cheaper than the others mentioned, for me anyway.

I like 'em!

Tom Johnson's prices beat Falcon by hundreds of $$$. I was a Falcon customer for 8 years before switching. In 2 years I have saved $600, that is a lot of fuel.

http://www.airpowerinsurance.com/

Call Tom for a quote, it's free, and can save BIG bucks.
 
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Insurance is a little high but.........

It does sound a little high for the RV-10 but I would not expect much less than $3,000 even with 1000 hours and an instrument rating.

At least you don't have to insure a Lancair IV which I've heard in the 8-12K range per year.
 
My 9A with 75k hull cost me about $1700/year the first year. I had only a few hours transition training. Second year, no change. Global Aerospace via Aviation Brokers of North America (Rome GA). I've checked quotes from Avemco and they are always significantly higher, at least for me. Guess that the rule is, shop around. I'll probably try Airpower next time round.

greg
 
My 9A costs less than $1300 ($75000 hull) with Travers. First year was higher, about $1900. I have a partner who is pretty low time, ~350 hours. Not too bad, me thinks.

Bob Kelly
 
When you list your rates could you include your hours tt, private/comm/ATP, instrument rating, etc. so we can compare apples to apples.

(I'm a long way off from worrying about insurance, but I still like to know.)



Thanks,
 
I got a quote from Jenny for $100,000 coverage for a low time (200 hrs, 25 TW) pilot in a RV7 at $2000/yr so that seems kinda high for a 9A. Of course, this is just a quote, plane isnt flying yet but I'd look around (I was also quoted $2890 for the same policy by a competitor so it can vary quite a bit).

Yes, I would say that's high but there are lots of factor involved. The first year for a homebuilt is quite expensive.

If you really want to know, call NationAir and ask to speak to Jenny Estes.
 
When you list your rates could you include your hours tt, private/comm/ATP, instrument rating, etc. so we can compare apples to apples.

Stopped in the EAA/Falcon booth at AirVenture this year to get a rough idea for insurance. They asked what I was building: 7A. Ratings and hours: ATP, CFI, CFII, MEI, 3500. Quote for full coverage for everything possible with $75,000 hull was $1300/yr.
 
I'm working with EAA / Falcon via Bob Mackie. He has been GREAT to work with and had the best rates with some nice extras as well! He was HALF the price of one of the quotes that came in from another company!

Bob Mackey, Senior Vice President
Falcon Insurance Agency, Inc.
EAA Aircraft Insurance Plan
P. O. Box 3485
Oshkosh, WI 54903-3485
(877) 230-3252 (Toll-Free Office)
(920) 230-3252 (Office)
(920) 230-3253 (Fax)
[email protected]
www.eaainsurance.org

- Peter
 
Dead link...

http://www.airpowerinsurance.com/

Anyone know the telephone number....

And by the way... I have a private pilot / Instrument rating.
I have 815 Total time, 700 hours Skylane time (High performance),
I am 41 years old. We really need to compare notes and get these companies to compete for the Vans community business. So we need to share the quotes we are getting. These quotes are outrageous. I paid about $650.00 for insurance on my skylane.

Quotes:
Chartis Aerospace (thru Hardy Aviation Insurance): 75K hull $1871.00
AJM Insurance (thru another broker I can't remember) 80K $1650.00 but the weird thing is that they won't cover the maiden voyage. Seemed slippery to me.

I am waiting for a quote for AIG and Global Aerospace.
 
SkySmith

I have had insurance with SkySmith for the last three years on my 9A. 85K hull for the last two years it was $1418 and this year it went up to $1419. 600 hours FW and 10,000 hrs helo or so. Commercial Helicopter, Airplane and Glider, Instructor Rotorcraft. SEL MEL, Insturment Rotarcraft and airplane
 
There are a lot of things can impact your insurance rates,I have found.

Things like grass vs paved runways. Tie down vs. hangar vs. gang hangar.

Hours in type. Total TW hours. Etc.

That is not to mention hull value.

Also, some insurance companies have no exclusions for off airport landings or hand propping (not really an issue with RV's), include the hangar and contents, and insure you in any other airplane for which you are qualified up to your insured value, and more.

It is really very difficult to compare apples to apples.

For instance, my insurance last year was around $1650 for $75K hull with 600 hours TT and 250 in type. After the insurance company wrote me a check for a new FwF package due to my prop strike, the insurance went up to $2K/yr. I had expected my insurance to go down about $50/yr but the taxi incident canceled that. What I don't know at this point is how long I will have to deal with the inflated rate.

However, I'm very happy to have a new O-360 for only $400/yr. Not that I recommend trashing your motor as a way to finance an new engine.
 
First year (2006)
----------------- Premiums
Liability $1M -------------- $587
$100k/passenger
Medical $3K --------------- $12

Aircraft $80K ------------- $1,383
$100 deductible
Total: -------------------- $1,982

Last years (2009):

Liability $1M -------------- $194
$100k/passenger
Medical $3K --------------- $12

Aircraft $90K ------------- $1,253
$100 deductible
Total: -------------------- $1,459
Including non-owned aircraft, hangar, etc (additional coverage).

This year's quote: $1,380

Hull value and experience count.

I also got a rough quote for RV10. For a hull value of $200K the premium would be $4,500.

Total PIC time: 1200 hrs
Total RV 9A time: 820 hrs
Commercial, IFR, CFI

I brought my insurance from Chartis Aerospace (formerly AIG) through Jenny Estes at NationAir.
 
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Kinda apples and oranges,...

I don't think you are really getting fair numbers if you are only covering 120k on the RV10. Most 9a's will come in at 70-95k depending on the build but the average RV10 is much closer to 150k than 120k. Since the hull coverage drives the premium, you are probably understating the RV10 cost unless you plan to underinsure which is a bad plan.

As a data point, I just got coverage starting this month on my 7a through Jenny Estes at Nationair. Coverage is through Chartis for 100k hull which is a little light and one million liability. She applied the 10% TAA (Technically Advanced Aircraft) discount plus 5% AOPA discount which gave me an annual cost of $1,837 which I think it reasonable.

BTW, her service is outstanding. She shopped it a lot and replys promptly next business day, no exceptions.

Hope this helps!

Bill S
7a flying this month,... or next :)
 
My 8 is thru Chartis, and is $2200 for 80K, on a grass strip, with no off airport exclusions. I have 500 TT, 300 TW, and 40 in type at renewal. My dad has less time in type, but more of TT and TW. It was the same cost at renewal as the first three months, starting with the first flight.
 
I just renewed my policy with Falcon at $1,451
This was a reduction of $400 from last year.

Total PIC logged hours 691.6

- total last 12 months 46

- total in RV-7A 134.5

Hull $90,000
Hangared
 
This is part of the problem guys - we don't understand what we're buying, or how we buy it.

Boy aint that the truth.:confused:

ALL insurance for RV's is written through one of seven insurance companies.
Chartis- new name for AIG
Aerospace
Global Aerospace
Starr Aviation
Britt Paulk Aviation Underwriters
US Specialty
AVEMCO

Hundreds of BROKERS represent all of these companies. These brokers include Falcon, Nationair, Airpower, CS&A, Travers, AJM, Hardy, Sky Smith, Leading Edge, AOPA etc. etc. etc. ALL of these brokers go to all of these markets for quotes. Your quote is not from Nationair, or from Falcon - it is from one of these insurers. It serves NO purpose to "call my guy at xxx-xxx-xxxx" as is so commonly recommended here.

Yep, bumped my nose on that a few times yesterday---I called 5 different places looking for a quote, and at least 3 told me that they may not be able to get me a quote because I was already shopping others----and once the N number is out there, additional requests for quotes will be rejected.

This aint like shopping for a car, where you get to work dealer against dealer till you get the best price:mad:

Pick a good broker - one that you can reach on the phone when you call and one that explains things to you when you talk. Let that ONE broker shop the market for you and report each insurer's response to you. Then pick the insurer that has the best package for your PARTICULAR situation and unique variables.

This sounds like the best advice in this entire thread. Only thing is, how do you know a broker is a good one???

AVEMCO is the exception to the above - they are a DIRECT writer (agent and insurer are one in the same. They advertise that this saves you money, but in most cases it is 10-20% more expensive than the broker-accessed options.

In my case, more than double:eek: AVEMCO $6436, Starr $3113.

I am still waiting for more quotes from a few other brokers, if they can even get them, will report back when I know more.

At this time, Tom Johnson of AirPower is the clear leader in response time, and lowest cost.
 
get your instrument rating

I just checked on that. I asked my broker if that would lower my rates much, and was disappointed to learn that it would only result in a 3%-5% reduction in my rate. That's not much for the cost of the investment (unless, of course, you'll use it anyway). Just an FYI.
 
Timely thread, although I'm a little late to it. I just got a quote for an RV-6A. US Specialty Insurance via Airpower.

PIC = 470
6A = 20
Commercial and Instrument

At a 65K hull value the rate is $1350. I expect that will drop when I get 50-100 hours in type. That seemed pretty reasonable for only 20 hours in type.
 
Apples-to-Apples? Cite the coverage conditions

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is whether the quotes cited cover "Not in Motion", "Not in Flight", "Flight". There are separate charges for each condition and it does make a difference.

Chris
 
Not in Flight / Flight

OH yeah, there's a BIG difference. Most insurance people will default to talking about "Ground and Flight" coverage or "all risk." If you want NIM or NIF, you'd have to specifically ask for it. And then I'd probably try to talk you out of it until I felt like you fully understood what it meant.

But it is a good way to save insurance $$, if you are willing to self insure some in motion risk.

WAAAAAAYY better than insuring for too low a value.
 
O.K. Jeff, so you are an industry insider, and have a much better idea on what is going on here than the rest of us rabble, answer me this.

If all the brokers source from a few companies, then it would seem the real variance in price (for the same coverage/company) is found in what the broker packs on as his/her commission. Is this correct??

And if so, is there a way to have the broker do an itemized list of the charges??

Thanks for sharing your knowledge in this somewhat confusing arena.
 
And if so, is there a way to have the broker do an itemized list of the charges??

SkySmith has always itemized my charges. I've been dealing with them for quite a number years and have been very happy.
 
AVEMCO raised my rate considerably this year because I am over 70. So after more than 35 years with them, I went shopping at NationAir. Jenny found a company (Chartis) with better coverage for much less money.

Shop around. Insurance costs are as whimsical as the wind. Had the same happen with our home owners policy this year but for reasons no one could explain. The new home insurer is the same one I dropped 5 years ago because their rates were nuts. Now they are back in the ball park....go figure, the industry is chaos like much of the world.

I'll probably be shopping again a year from now for aircraft insurance or just drop it.
 
If all the brokers source from a few companies, then it would seem the real variance in price (for the same coverage/company) is found in what the broker packs on as his/her commission. Is this correct??

And if so, is there a way to have the broker do an itemized list of the charges??

Thanks for sharing your knowledge in this somewhat confusing arena.

Mike - the broker is not allowed by law to add any fee to any policy he/she sells. Brokers don't mark up insurance packages and then resell them to you. They are paid on commissions dictated by the insurance companies. And they're all basically the same - usually 15% of the total premium is brokerage commission. They don't vary broker to broker or company to company.

The variance you are seeing is based on several things (roughly in order of significance):
1) prices are very market driven and change all the time - If I placed your coverage in December of 2009 and then placed an EXACT same risk in July of 2010, you'd find the pricing to be different and maybe even a different insurer having the best quote. The more volitile the market is, the bigger the variance from month to month or even day to day.

2) aircraft owners all request different values. RVs are insured for hull values all over the board. Each different value will generate a different premium.

3) No 2 two pilots are the same. Age, ratings, total hours, recent hours, TW time, make and model time, etc all make some difference in the premium at the end of the quoting process. And ther's no standardized formula for taking these factors into account. All companies quantify them differently with respect to premium.

4) Of limited significance, geography can make a little bit of difference. States with less friendly insurance or liability regs can affect an insurers willingness to accept risks inthat state. Risk of hurricanes in coastal areas etc.

5) Various companies can apply various discounts and credits. AOPA, EAA, FAST cards, IAC memberships, etc can be applied, depending on the company.

6) Then throw in an occasional owner that insures for liability only or Not In Motion hull coverge, etc.

So that's why it's hard to say that the insurance cost for a hangared RV-7A is $1,875 a year. There are a lot of variables. I would love to get a GOOD market survey of RV insurance rates. With enough accurate data (not the "I think I paid..." that is so common) you could start to see some trends. But then the market forces would shift it around, so who knows.

More and more, the insurers are using computerized quoting systems to generate quotes on small airplanes. A whole bunch of info is dumped into the computer (again, each company asks for different stuff) and then some magic formula generates a number. If few companies still quote by hand, and most apply some personal consideration to "other than standard" situations (ie low time pilots, students, etc.)

Bottom line - Find a good broker who sounds like he knows what he's doing and sounds like he cares about you and who you can reach when you need him and trust him to shop the market for you and find the best prices and terms. That's what you pay them for.
 
AVEMCO raised my rate considerably this year because I am over 70. So after more than 35 years with them, I went shopping at NationAir. Jenny found a company (Chartis) with better coverage for much less money.

Shop around. Insurance costs are as whimsical as the wind. Had the same happen with our home owners policy this year but for reasons no one could explain. The new home insurer is the same one I dropped 5 years ago because their rates were nuts. Now they are back in the ball park....go figure, the industry is chaos like much of the world.

I'll probably be shopping again a year from now for aircraft insurance or just drop it.


Again - let Jenny (or whoever) shop it. That's their JOB. Broker shoping won't help.
 
First off, Avemco is a direct insurer, no brokers involved. Secondly, there is some logic to broker shopping. They seem to work fairly hard for you on the first year checking as many underwriters as possible. After that, some slack off and just throw you the re-up quote from the same underwriter. The 2nd broker can't requote the same N# with the same previously quoted underwriters which just goes to show that the original broker didn't shop around much. Bottom line--it doesn't hurt to get addl quotes.
 
Secondly, there is some logic to broker shopping. They seem to work fairly hard for you on the first year checking as many underwriters as possible. After that, some slack off and just throw you the re-up quote from the same underwriter.

The good ones don't. If you figure out that a broker is slacking off on your account, you need to fire them regardless of whether they gave you the cheapest quote or not.

I have found that some of the "call center" brokers do tend try to get away with giving you single market quotes. It's usually the ones that advertise the most, because they have a steady stream of new business coming in to replace you. They value volume and speed over doing a good job for you.
 
Assume I call around to chat with some agents. I have no previous personal experience with any of them. They all sound like nice folks on the phone. All of course request my N-number, looking for an exclusive right to be my agent of record with the underwriters.

So, I pick one.....but later, before I contract, I regret my choice. The trouble is, in theory, no other agent can get me a quote. So how do I "fire" the first agent, whom I never did business with anyway?
 
I ran into this very thing a few years back. The broker I called first was taking forever to get me any quotes so I started shopping around for others. As soon as I mentioned my N number I was told they couldn't help me because so-and -so has already started the process with the underwriters.

I called So-and-So and told him I was no longer interested in his help and to please delete my file from their system. He did and I was able to start the process all over.
 
Dan, you could tell them there is no N # assigned yet------you are only shopping while you get ready to have the plane registered/inspected.

This is pretty much what I did, I made sure everyone knew I was shopping around, and wanted to see what they could do for me. I make sure folks know the plane is not ready to be insured yet.

So far, I think I have 5 different quotes.

Right now, it looks like AirPower is the front runner, and Avemco is dead last.
 
More and more, the insurers are using computerized quoting systems to generate quotes on small airplanes. A whole bunch of info is dumped into the computer (again, each company asks for different stuff) and then some magic formula generates a number. If few companies still quote by hand, and most apply some personal consideration to "other than standard" situations (ie low time pilots, students, etc.)

Bottom line - Find a good broker who sounds like he knows what he's doing and sounds like he cares about you and who you can reach when you need him and trust him to shop the market for you and find the best prices and terms. That's what you pay them for.

Excellent info, Jeff.

My AIG (Chartis) policy has been brokered for years by SkySmith, but this afternoon Scott and the gang sent me my new binder from Global. Don't know why Chartis dropped out as best quote after all these years, guess it is due to those unknown software metrics.
 
changing brokers

You fire and reappoint a new broker by way of a "broker of record" letter. Your new broker cann provide this form for you to sign. When send to the underwriting companies, it informs them that you are terminating your current relationship and begining a new one. It authorizes them to work with your new broker. You can do this whenever you want, but is usually done at renewal.

Sam - Chartis and Starr use automated rating. Among other things, they adjust their pricing constantly to maintain some ideal mix of sucessful vs unsucessful quotes. If they are writing everything they quote, their prices are too high and vice versa.
 
For what it's worth

I've been shopping for a 7 for a while. I got a quote on $100K hull in the winter. It was about $3000 bucks. I just got a little closer to a plane I liked so I refreshed the quote. It went up to $3200 bucks even though I have about 40 more hours, and 15 TW time as opposed to 7. I understand the market moves.

My quotes were from AOPA as a member. Sadly, I just renewed my renter's policy. The renewal literature said how they were pleased to be able to offer me a 10% discount for a loyal, incident-free relationship this past year. Then, they charged me more than I paid last year. :(

I have about the same times as the OP, but I am looking at a TW plane. I would think you should be a little lower than my price by virtue of the nose wheel (I think you were shopping for about the same hull coverage???). Another data point for you anyway.