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prkaye

Well Known Member
Frustrating night in the shop. I'm at the stage of assembling my Horiz Stab. I got the spars assembled no problem, as these were all squeezed rivets. The task for tonight was to try to rivet the nose ribs into the HS skin. The problems:

1) The first problem was that my clecoes won't hold. I guess from match-drilling and deburring the holes in the skin and ribs, the holes are big enough now that the spring-back force of the rib near the nose is too much for the clecoes to hold... they just go shooting out. Anyone else have this problem?

2) I managed to get it clecoed enough to start trying to rivet the middle nose-rib in place. I had a real hard time getting a feel for this, and ended up botching a couple of rivets. When drilling these out, the holes have gotten enlarged a bit. I don't know if this means I need a new skin and rib, or what. What is the usual way of dealing with this?

3) Also, I'm not sure about the rivets that I "successfully" set... they don't seem perfectly flat and smooth agains the skin... with the edge of my fingernail I am able to "pick at" the edge of the rivet head... is this normal, or should they be smooth as a baby's bottom?

Thanks for any help!
 
Not sure

Phil

A picture would be very helpful here.

As for the ribs, I am not sure what your problem is from your question. The clecos should hold if the hole size is correct. There should not that much force pushing the peices away from each other, if the nose of the rib and the flanges are all 90deg and everything fits right.

As for repair, if you have a problem with hole size on drilling out a rivet, you can go the next size larger, provided there is the proper edge distance.

Hopefully you can post a picture and am sure you will have all the advice you need, and then some.
 
???????????

I am of the same opinion as Wade....the clecos should not be popping out unless the holes were all match-drilled with the wrong size bit? Something doesn't sound right. Also, did you be sure all the parts were mating flush before drilling/riveting? Still sounds to me like a wrong sized drill bit!? And/or, you are using the right sized clecos?

I will add that the most forward rivets in the nose ribs are a real bear to buck. I don't have my plans handy, but I recall one or two of the forward rivets being very tough. Don't feel bad about that though....I have seen a few -9's (unpainted) with filler in that exact location :D
 
pretty sure the drill bit was right... some of the clecoes hold. The larger clecoes (the #30 ones, brass coloured) don't even fit inthe holes
I think maybe i deburred too aggressively???
 
Riveting Help

Paul...

problem 1...3/32" clecoes hold well in undimpled, drilled holes but will loose some gripping ability once the hole is dimpled partially because the dimpling process enlarges the whole slightly. That and the riveting viabrations causes the clecoes to pop out. 1/8" and larger do not seem to have the problem as severly. Also certain brands of clecoes do not have as well formed tip as others and this is more critical again with 3/32" size. I can't recall the brand but Avery & Cleaveland Tool sells the better clecoes. US Tool and ATS Tool sells the poor quality clecoes and, again, it only affects the 3/32" clecoes.
To prevent popping, try a small piece of tin with an undimpled 3/32" hole acting like a washer on pin side of your clecoe to give the clecoe more gripping power. I would only do this in every 3rd hole or more so the other clecoes in the remaining holes will hold the sheets in proper position. These "washered" clecoes will hold the bent sheets enough to take the strain off the those clecoes without the tin "washer".

problem 2... You need to have some "oops" rivets in those enlarged holes. Van's sells them. They are a rivets with the head of a normal 3/32" rivet but the shank is the size of a 1/8" rivet allowing you to drill the hole out and still have a normal looking head. You may find some nearby builder with some that you can borrow. They are actually an NAS size rivet. Do a search on Van's webstore for "oops Rivet".

Problem 3...You "may" be pressing too hard with the bucking bar at the start of the rivet process. The first hit by the rivet gun should be lighter until the rivet starts to form then a little more trigger along with a little more pressure on the bucking bar until the tail is fully formed. Most newbies use too much air pressure and are too aggressive during the first blows of the rivet gun. Take some small pieces of scrap and practice first. Keep the air pressure low and go slow. You must acquire this skill even though a squeezer does such a nice job because you cannot possibly reach all rivets with a squeezer.

I hope this helps.

Dick DeCramer
Northfield, MN
N500DD RV6 slow build
160 great flying hours
RV4 wreck rebuild also flying
RV8 Wing kit in process
 
Cleaveland Tools sells wedgelock brand clecos and I have had a lot better luck with them. They are currently on sale for .31 apiece I believe. At least they were a day or two ago.
 
>> try a small piece of tin with an undimpled 3/32" hole acting like a washer on pin side

That's brilliant, why didn't i think of that!

And yes, I think the dimpling caused the problem.

About the oops rivet, what if I need a rivet with a slightly larger head, because the hole in the skin is a bit too wide (kind of like two overlapping holes now)... can I use a bigger rivet?
The plans called for AD3-3.5. i don't have any AD4-3.5 but could i go AD4-4 ?
 
Longer is good....

prkaye said:
>> try a small piece of tin with an undimpled 3/32" hole acting like a washer on pin side

That's brilliant, why didn't i think of that!

And yes, I think the dimpling caused the problem.

About the oops rivet, what if I need a rivet with a slightly larger head, because the hole in the skin is a bit too wide (kind of like two overlapping holes now)... can I use a bigger rivet?
The plans called for AD3-3.5. i don't have any AD4-3.5 but could i go AD4-4 ?
Click to expand...

The "OOPS" rivets (or the next larger rivet size) need to be longer than the original.

Remember, you still need 1.5 D sticking out on the shop head side before riveting. Since the "oops" rivets (or next size up) are 1/32 inch larger diameter (33%), you need the exposed, pre-riveted portion to be longer too....

If you go to a AD4-xx rivet, you will also need a larger dimple. Do not countersink your hole as has been suggested in another similar thread. Calculations show that you will remove over 50% of the skin thickness to make the AD4 rivet sit flush in a AD3 dimple.

Lots of high level mathematics could be done, but 0.5 to 1 size up in rivet length should do it.... :)

Buy some of the NAS1097 rivets, you'll need them eventually..... :)

gil in Tucson
 
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Cleco's and bad rivets

First-there is definitely a bad batch of clecos out there. I tested several a another builder had and they all popped out of dimpled holes. He sent them back to Brown tool and they were replaced (no charge). I don't remember the brand of clecos. There are only 2 or 3 manufactures in the US.

Second-If you have not riveted anything more then the middle nose rib yet and you are not happy with the result this is what I recommend. Remove the rivets that you have set. Drill and dimple the middle nose ribs for 1/8 flush rivets (AD4). Install the AVDEL blind rivets that Van supplies with the kit (don't recall the part number). The reason I suggest this is simple. RV-4 middle nose ribs are attached this way, there is very little room to buck safely under the middle nose rib-good change of having poorly set rivets, the skin fit around the nose rib in not great (local builder had the same issue with the skin fit)-very good chance of having a poorly set rivet. I had mixed results trying to rivet my RV-7 middle nose ribs as well.

Blind rivets are appropriate in this location.

Get replacement clecos

Food for thought,

Paul
RV-4/RV-7A canopy
 
hmmm... never thought to check the air pressure. I think I was running about 80 or 90 PSI, is that about right?

Also, I have two flat rivet sets. One is just a very simple one. The other is a swivel one with a rubber guard around the edge. It's two pieces... I can pull the business end of it out of its socket. In fact, if I pull the trigger without the set pressed against something, the end of it will fly out of its socket. Is this normal? I haven't had much luck with this swivel rivet set.
 
Phil -
80psi is way too much for AD3 rivets. I have a 2x and a 3x gun (both Taylors) and typically run 25-30 psi for AD3 rivets and 30-35 psi for AD4. I prefer the 3x and lower pressures.
 
Phil

If you don't have a small regulator on the rivet gun, I would suggest getting one. I found that regulating the gun is way better for control than regulating the air supply. I leave the supply at 90 psi all the time. That way you can go from drill to squeezer to rivet gun without changing the air pressure. The eleminates the chance of the air pressure being too high. When using the regulator on the gun you will get a good feel for how many clicks in or out you need to go as you change rivet sizes and lengths.

About firing your rivet gun without it pressed against something, don't do that. Many people fire it against a wooden table to get a feel for what it's set at.
 
prkaye said:
so what would be the symptoms of rivetting at too high pressure?
Click to expand...

1. Beating the heck out of your plane.
2. 1/2 second to set a rivet.

A lower pressure can make the rivet so much easier to set, especially if you are working by yourself. If it's too low you will work harden the rivet, but that's not too big a deal with a -3 rivet.
 
Smilies

Philip,
Denting the skin and smilies are definitely easier to get with so much (80 psi) pressure. Control is also more difficult. Practice, practice,
Regards,
 
I have parallel air lines with multiple taps plumbed around my bench. One run is high pressure right off the tank, the other is low pressure, tee-ed thru a regulator.

I find myself using the low pressure line for 99% of the drilling, not just riveting. I switch to high pressure when I need the big Unibit, pneumatic squeezer or grinder.

I also found that the little devices that mount directly on the inlet of the rivet guns are valves, not regulators. With the gun at rest, the system (line, "regulator" and gun) is at line pressure. They will slow the air flow once the trigger is open, but between hits, the trigger goes back to 90psi (or whatever the tank/line is at). Much of the control that Pierre mentioned is lost if the air is "valved" rather than regulated. Just like your handgun, a heavy trigger makes it more difficult to control.
 
deburring

also make sure you dont over do it with the deburring bit. 1 turn with light to no pressure is all you need .you are noth trying to chamfer the hole.just knocking off the burrs. alot of people tend to think they are trying to gring for vlave seats or some thing. i have heard of a brand of clecoes on this forum that did as you say. do a search and see if yours are the same ones.data point i have never had a clecoe pop out and i did over do a few. now they are scrap.not because of the hole but be cause i tend to get a little carried away with stuff .....like this post. check the clecoes check the debur process. good luck


little drill #= bigger hole
 
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>> Just like your handgun, a heavy trigger makes it more difficult to control.

LOL... up here in Canada, most of us don't have handguns :p
 
prkaye said:
pretty sure the drill bit was right... some of the clecoes hold. The larger clecoes (the #30 ones, brass coloured) don't even fit inthe holes
I think maybe i deburred too aggressively???
Click to expand...
Phil,
Just to be sure, when you say #30 brass colored, I hope you really mean #30 copper colored. Silver clecos are #40, and brass colored clecos are 3/16".

Tracy.
 
Yeah, the silver coloured #40 ones are the ones that should go in there, but are popping out. Somebody suggested I might have used the wrong drill bit, but I definately didn't use a #30 bit because the copper colloured #30 clecoes don't even fit into the hole (too big). So the problem is definately just my #40 clecoes not holding in dimpled #40 holes.
 
Yessss!

prkaye said:
>> Just like your handgun, a heavy trigger makes it more difficult to control.

LOL... up here in Canada, most of us don't have handguns :p
Click to expand...

That's one reason we are in "The Land of the Free!" So many folks enjoy it so much, we have over 250 million of them!! :D
 
>> That's one reason we are in "The Land of the Free!"

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy shooting as much as the next guy (I'm in the Army Reserve).

But honestly, I've never felt that not owning my own handgun is a hindrance to my freedom in any way :p

But this is a whole other debate, on which there seems to be a fundamental difference in viewpoint across the 49th parallel (though viewpoints don't seem to be unanymous on either side of the border).
 
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