DanH

DanH

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Anyone aware of a heel brake installation in an -8?

I'm a bigfoot, size 13, so the "drag the toe brakes" problem is real for me. I'm aware of the crossbar-at-the-pivot fix and the lower pedal extension fix; both steal a little legroom.

The rudder pedals perhaps could be moved forward a bit for additional legroom; no cylinders and no need to pivot the upper pedal for braking. Heel brakes are fixed to the floor, so it would also eliminate the flex lines; all plumbing would be aluminum tube.
 
I could never understand toe brakes. I flew a couple of 'antiques' that had heel brakes. What a difference in crosswind landings. No more accidental 'slamming' of one during a 'correction'. Also made taxiing easier. I too would be interested in a heel brake setup for a -8.
 
I have to admit, I like heel brakes over toe brakes on a tail dragger as well.

Vans, wanna sell another kit option? :)
 
Count me in for heal brakes. As long as they don't have cables like my old airplane had.
 
Hi Dan,

I don't think it'd be that hard to do at all...there is a floor and some structure up there that would make it not too hard to whip up some brackets and go to town! You've got gear towers, right? - Use 'em!

Granted, I don't like misplaced heel brakes that are cable activated like my friends Aeronca, but in my Piper PA-12 they are hydraulic and a joy to use (although in my piper the old expander tubes make more noise than actually do anything, plus, who needs brakes on a plane that lands at 30-somethingth anyway)!

Cheers,
Stein
 
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DB8: that's the crossbar-at-the-pivot mod, in a fancy aluminum billet version.

If there's no existing mod out there, I'll take a look at it. I designed a set of heel brakes for a biplane project and loved them; sized for my feet <g>
 
Fold up extension plates

This is a good subject. I too have big feet and have made a few landings a bit more interesting then it needed to be. I have a 36? inseam and accordingly, my pedals are moved all the way back to the firewall. This makes the pedal faces more vertical and exacerbates the problem. I have been keeping my eyes open for a good fix, but the only ones I really liked were home made extension plates that were not being marketed.

I wish someone would sell plates that fold down to extend the pedal length and angle towards the pilot to give you better pressure away from the brakes. I also strongly feel that these plates should fold up for cruising. While cruising, I like to put my feet under the pedals which allows me to stretch my legs.
 
Late to the thread here, but thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. This rudder/brake pedal issue has been brought up before; awhile back I posted my fix with a pic attached that seems to work pretty well for me and needs no new parts or mods... just gotta drill two new holes. Here?s a link;

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=105645&postcount=43 You might give this method a try, it's easy and it works.

And call me crazy, but I hate heel brakes... I've flown Citabrias, Champs and Cubs with 'em and just didn't like them. I once put a Citabria into the grass alongside the runway in a gusty crosswind thanks to these nasty things... on rollout with the rudder hard over to maintain centerline I got hit with a gust. Since the rudder was to the stop I needed a tap on the brake to maintain the centerline, but due to the geometry of the rudder and brake pedals I couldn't get my heel on the brake. Scared the poo outta me, so no more crosswindy days in that ship with heel brakes.
 
jbDC9 said:
And call me crazy, but I hate heel brakes... I've flown Citabrias, Champs and Cubs with 'em and just didn't like them......Since the rudder was to the stop I needed a tap on the brake to maintain the centerline, but due to the geometry of the rudder and brake pedals I couldn't get my heel on the brake.....
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I hear you loud and clear. I just got out of a Citabria.....literally, less than 2 hours ago. TWICE during the otherwise pleasant lesson in which TOL's were a non-event, I temporarily lost positive control of aircraft while of all things....taxiing. Why? Because my blue jeans somehow got snagged on those heel brakes! I guess I should make pulling my pants up higher than normal a routine part of the preflight procedure. :rolleyes:
 
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Does anybody have a picture/description of the crossbar at pivot point mod? I'm not having much luck with the search function.

Thanks.
 
Toe brakes let you put in full rudder AND brake. Handy in a tailwheel airplane if things really start to go bad. Can't do that with heel brakes. I used to have a Champ and the heel brakes worked OK, but I think toe brakes are pretty much ubiquitous on modern aircraft for a reason.
 
I've got enough time in a Luscombe to acquaint myself with heal breaks. I don't hate them per say ... but I would never voluntarily install them on my own aircraft!

Yes. Sure. You will get used to them ... but they are awkward as ****. Having your feet in a "V" formation during the landing phase is just asking for your foot to slip off the rudder pedals when applying the breaks.

Having said that; I learned a great deal from that little old airplane. How NOT to use breaks at all. I found myself rarely on the breaks after tackling the Luscombe. If I was ever on them it was during run up, and spiking them to kick the tail around.

Before anyone is gung-ho about installing heel breaks I highly suggest trying them out first. They are not the above all, end all, unfortunately.
 
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It's one of those preference things, stick or yoke, left throttle-right throttle, Ford or Chevy. Pedal geometry makes a lot of difference. Some heel brake arrangements are indeed pretty bad. Of course some toe brakes have issues too, which is why we're having this conversation. Variations in human geometry spice the mix.

I looked at my pedal assembly the other night, and no convenient re-design came to mind. Something like the rear seat brake assembly from the Legend Cub would work pretty well mounted to the RV floor; Grove cylinders and some billet brackets and pedals.

Mike, the crossbar-at-the-pivot mod is just a long bolt (or a length of rod threaded on both ends) to replace the two separate short pivot bolts at each pedal.

John, I've already drilled new mount points for the cylinders. Have not yet had both the seat and the pedals back in the airplane at the same time for a bigfoot test. It should work, IF the tops of the brake pedals don't foul the firewall at full travel with the pedal assembly mounted full forward. We'll see.
 
It also TOTALLY depends on the geometry of the heel brakes. The Citabrias are one of the worst with that dumb little tab way back behind the pedal. The chaps/chiefs are a wee bit better, but still not great. The Luscombes with their mini-brake pedals in a different area altogether are something a bit weird to.

But just because you may have been exposed to one of the aircraft with bad geometry heel brakes doesn't make them all bad. Some are quite nice in fact. I grew up in old Citabrias and hated those heel brakes. My PA-12 has wonderful heel brakes. Heel brakes that are cable operated can also be a pain.

Anyway, I wouldn't generally lump "all heel brakes" into one sucky group. Indeed some of them are nasty, but some are actually quite pleasant to use. Just depends on how they are designed, etc..

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein
 
Dan, thanks for explaining the bolt idea--think I'm going to try it.

I know nothing of what I'm about to say so this is probably a dumb question: What about some sort of hand brake at the bottom of the stick like you see in a lot of Russian style old fighters? Squeeze with no rudder and you get even braking on both sides, more braking on sides with rudder input. I have no experience but on various flight reviews I've read, pilots comment that it takes time to get used to but once you do, it works pretty well. Just chucking ideas against the wall.
 
mandm1516 said:
...What about some sort of hand brake at the bottom of the stick like you see in a lot of Russian style old fighters? Squeeze with no rudder and you get even braking on both sides, more braking on sides with rudder input...
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I'm not a fan of the heel brakes I have tried, but all of them were much easier than my first try in a CJ-6 with the bicycle handle, on a narrow taxiway. That was entertaining, but that also could be learned.
 
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Hand brake

mandm1516 said:
What about some sort of hand brake at the bottom of the stick like you see in a lot of Russian style old fighters? Squeeze with no rudder and you get even braking on both sides, more braking on sides with rudder input.
Click to expand...

This is the way, I will build my brakes, but I havent found a drawing or a picture of the power distribution system. Maybe someone can help me. I have some ideas and made some drawing, but there is no need to reinvent something, that already exists. Thank You!
 
It's common for some glider to have squeeze breaking. However the landing gear is inline and there is no differential breaking. But for arguments sake, if there is differential with the input of rudder, and squeezing ... doesn't this defeat the purpose of a squeeze break?

I thought the reason was to get away from breaks on the rudder .. not have a more compicated system incorporating a squeeze lever as well ...
 
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