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Kenny Gene

Well Known Member
Hey guys,

My hanger, (I rent 2 "T" hangers) was spot inspected by a city "official" and they pulled my electrical breaker.

Has anyone been hassled abut adding electrial plugs etc., while building their planes? Is there electrical code that says lights cannot be within 5 feet of a fuel tank?

Thanks.

Kenny Gene
294TC RV 7a 570 hrs (9-5-07)
484TC RV 10 finishing
 
Every airport is different; heck, even a change in management can change things around. Unless specifically allowed in your lease agreement, you probably won't win this one. I've found it helpful to maintain a good relationship with the management at KFLG, but we just got a new manager so I'll be starting over again and just hope he doesn't try changing things too much.

Oh, and as for codes, it is my understanding that there really is no 'uniform code'. Your best bet will probably be to check with a local contractor or architect who is familiar with the local code enforcement. Such a person might be able to advise you how to change things for a suitable compromise.
 
Lights can be over a fuel...

Kenny Gene said:
Hey guys,

My hanger, (I rent 2 "T" hangers) was spot inspected by a city "official" and they pulled my electrical breaker.

Has anyone been hassled abut adding electrial plugs etc., while building their planes? Is there electrical code that says lights cannot be within 5 feet of a fuel tank?

Thanks.

Kenny Gene
294TC RV 7a 570 hrs (9-5-07)
484TC RV 10 finishing
Click to expand...

...tank of a plane, but they have to be enclosed so no pieces fall if the bulb fails (explodes?). They might also be worried about the bulbs getting physically hit and breaking.

If you have flourescent tubes, you can buy clear slide-on lexan tubes to meet this requirement at Home Depot...
 
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Should come down to what the lease says. I'd pull it out and review.

If it's the city that is leasing you the hangar, and the lease doesn't say otherwise, I would think that it's a reasonalable expectation for power to be available. That said, often airport hangar lease arrangements anticipate the power use to be at a level needed for storing and airplane, no building one. That may be your problem.
 
Hangars are mentioned in...

flion said:
....
Oh, and as for codes, it is my understanding that there really is no 'uniform code'. Your best bet will probably be to check with a local contractor or architect who is familiar with the local code enforcement. Such a person might be able to advise you how to change things for a suitable compromise.
Click to expand...

..the National Electrical Code (I think that's the correct name) and they are adopted by most localities.

I came across this when I built my hangar in 2001. The code also calls for explosion proof receptacles if they are less than 2 ft above the ground IIRC. Keep your electrical sockets at bench height.
 
....and there may be a lease clause stating "either party may terminate for any reason"....

Count your blessings.
 
Ask for the code reference

Would I were you, I would politely ask for the code reference that describes what you did wrong. Then, you may act to rectify it. For example, if you hard wired in electric plugs that may very well be a violation of your lease and/or the codes, whereas extension cords to a power strip might be okay.

My brother is a local builder. Many times the inspector gives his opinion or interpretation of the regulations according to local policy. These types of issues are open to interpretation and subsequent negotiation.

I've seen some pretty strange things, such as hard wiring an orange extension cord into an outlet, then running the cord to the other side of the hangar, even to an outlet. Just say NO!

Usually, bare wire or romex needs to be in conduit, to approved outlet boxes properly mounted. However, such modification would undoubtedly be prohibited by your lease.

Don
 
Nope, Code is not open to interpretation as far as the inspector is concerned.

cfiidon said:
Many times the inspector gives his opinion or interpretation of the regulations according to local policy. These types of issues are open to interpretation and subsequent negotiation.

Don
Click to expand...

The only person that can interpret the code is the inspecting authority. His interpretation is the only one that counts. In my work, I have had occasion to contact the comittee, or person, that actually wrote the code when an inspector red tagged something that did not seem right. While the Code writers can comment on what their intent was, interpretation is strictly left to the field inspector, even if the inspector is not following the Codes intent.
Part of this has to do with the fact that an individual inspector is personally liable for what he inspects should there be an accident or injury due to his lack of enforcement. That is why they can be very difficult to work with once they have made a ruling. If they get their hackles up, they can be down right unreasonable.

Your best bet is to contact the individual inspector, ask what you can do to correct the situation, and see if he will work with you to get you back on line. What ever you do, don't put yourself in a position of arguing over code compliance with them.
 
Definately get a ruling of all the things they said you did wrong. At our airport it is actually the fire department that does inpections.

Remember, most these hangars were built for storage, to have one light bulb on the ceiling. Creative people have tapped into this power supply for all their equipment and flood lights and the electrical systems simply cannot handle it. It does become a fire hazard.
 
The NFPA publishes the NEC Code Book

FresnoR said:
Definately get a ruling of all the things they said you did wrong. At our airport it is actually the fire department that does inpections.

Remember, most these hangars were built for storage, to have one light bulb on the ceiling. Creative people have tapped into this power supply for all their equipment and flood lights and the electrical systems simply cannot handle it. It does become a fire hazard.
Click to expand...

The National Fire Protection Agency actualy publishes the National Electrical Code. Most existing structures are inspected by a Fire Marshal, or as is the case with my office building, the local Fire Department.
Normally the Electrical Inspector only inspects new buildings or structures.

Kenny, it would help you to know who did the actual inspection. I have found the Fire folks to be a lot more reasonable and easy to work with than the Electrical Inspectors. Your experience may vary!
 
Most of the Country

now falls under the International Building Codes. The person having authority over making code calls in each jurisdiction is the Building Official--the inspectors are his deputies. At least in California, the building official or his deputies are not liable unless they show willful neglect, etc. If you disagree with the call of the building inspector, you are welcome to seek an opinion from his boss, the building official. If you do not like the call of the building official, the next step would be an appeal to the Building Code Appeals Board.
As a building official, I don't mind at all having a decision of one of my inspectors refered to me. The key is for everyone to keep it on a professional and courteous level.
Hope that helps,
Bob
 
local attitudes control it

I tried to build my hangar at one city airport and it was nothing but hassles and delays every inch of the way, including such features as the overzealous inspector and making up rules and requirements along the way.

After a year of hassles and no progress, I canceled the lease and went to another airport 20 miles away. There, it was nothing but "how can we help you?" and complete cooperation. I built the hangar there without a single problem, hassle, or delay. Completely night-and-day difference.

A lot of it depends on whateve power trip the local bureaucrats are on.

http://www.meyette.us/hangar.htm

Perhaps you can reason with the local bureaucrats. Or perhaps there's another airport nearby with better attitudes.
 
NFPA

JonJay said:
The National Fire Protection Agency actualy publishes the National Electrical Code. Most existing structures are inspected by a Fire Marshal, or as is the case with my office building, the local Fire Department.
Normally the Electrical Inspector only inspects new buildings or structures.

Kenny, it would help you to know who did the actual inspection. I have found the Fire folks to be a lot more reasonable and easy to work with than the Electrical Inspectors. Your experience may vary!
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the NFPA does not have any codes for aircaft storage hangers. Some local officials try and make the code for commercial aircraft hangers fit. This leads to explosion proof wiring, no storage of hazardous materials outside of an appropriate cabinets etc. I have found that the best solution is if you can convince the inspector to allow what is appropriate for a storage hanger. Some however are that deadly combination of "Low IQ and high authority"

Good Luck

Gary Specketer
 
Courts

JonJay said:
The only person that can interpret the code is the inspecting authority. His interpretation is the only one that counts. In my work, I have had occasion to contact the comittee, or person, that actually wrote the code when an inspector red tagged something that did not seem right. While the Code writers can comment on what their intent was, interpretation is strictly left to the field inspector, even if the inspector is not following the Codes intent.
Part of this has to do with the fact that an individual inspector is personally liable for what he inspects should there be an accident or injury due to his lack of enforcement. That is why they can be very difficult to work with once they have made a ruling. If they get their hackles up, they can be down right unreasonable.

Your best bet is to contact the individual inspector, ask what you can do to correct the situation, and see if he will work with you to get you back on line. What ever you do, don't put yourself in a position of arguing over code compliance with them.
Click to expand...

This is good advice, but actually the ones with the final authority are the courts. If it's worth it to you, you can file a lawsuit, and, if your interpretation of the rules is correct, you may win. This approach takes more time and money than most people want to invest, but it's not out of the question.
 
The NEC, UBC, ICBO and the NFPA can all be used for reference for citing non-compliance with "local" code. I beg to differ with anyone who thinks interpretation is not a factor. True, you can argue interpretation in the courts, but do you have the assets and fortitude to fight that? The money spent could easily bring the hangar in question up to "code". I give you an addage from years of dealing with building officials, OSHA compliance officers, etc. ( I was one) and anyone empowered by the Local, County, State and Federal (I am one now) authorities. "Arguing with them is like wrestling with a pig in mud, after awhile you realize that the pig likes it" Your best bet is hat in hand, and ask what you need to do to make sure your hangar doesn't endanger your life and that of all the other hangars and occupants around you. Seriously, leave your ego at the door, ask straight forward questions and you may be surprised how easily this can be resolved.
 
And also just before Christmas on our Airpark...

John Clark said:
A timely news item from Washington State today:

http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/aug/19/hangar-fire-destroys-plane-helicopter/

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAST Team Member
AA Flight Adviser
RV NU "Sunshine"
KS BA
Click to expand...

http://www.explorernews.com/articles/2009/12/23/news/doc4b315580a7c1e415056780.txt

The cause is still unknown... a Comp 10 and two Glasairs, including an Oshkosh winner, were totally destroyed.

The fire department arrived without foam, and just put water on the surrounding area. The main beam across the steel hangar sagged about half way to the ground after the fire.

And now the Fire District wants to annex us. This was a new hangar and met newer stricter town codes - most of the existing hangars on the Airpark were built to earlier County codes.

Keep your insurance up-to-date. The house insurance - this was a 7 acre residential lot - did pay out on the hangar as an accessory building.
 
NEC

The National Electric Code does, indeed, cover aircraft hangers.

Its Article 513 (2008 version).

The main thing you want to pay attention to is areas that are "classified" and not put any electrical there.

If you put any electrical in a classified area, it has to comply with article 500.

I designed some hanger electrical for new hangers here some years ago.

Usually inspectors don't come around after the project is completed ("green tagged") so I don't know why they were out looking for trouble.

But, as the "Authority having Jurisdiction" they can cause you alot of pain (read $$$).

DON'T get them PO'ed; they can be worse than the FAA...:eek:

Dave
 
Daver said:
The National Electric Code does, indeed, cover aircraft hangers.

Its Article 513 (2008 version).
....

Usually inspectors don't come around after the project is completed ("green tagged") so I don't know why they were out looking for trouble.
......
DON'T get them PO'ed; they can be worse than the FAA...:eek:

Dave
Click to expand...

Building inspectors usually do not come around after construction, but fire inspectors do.

Since our Airpark codes were "relaxed" a bit (see article referenced above), the fire guys wrote in the right for inspections every 6 months, but with one week notice.

I bet other airports have similar regular fire marshal inspections allowed...
 
Added Service

Thanks for eveyone's thoughts, replies and input. Lots of good advise and experiences.

Has anyone been able to add their own service box (with permission) to run their hanger?
If so, Did you pay to install a seperate meter or did the city bear this cost?

How big of service box (Amps) did you install and/or recommend?

I have a 2 or 3 hp air compressor that pulls the most amps when plugged in, but I always pull the plug when I'm not using.

Thanks again.

Kenny Gene
294TC RV7a 576 hrs (9-5-07)
484TC RV10 finishing
 
Big Challenge

Kenny Gene said:
Thanks for eveyone's thoughts, replies and input. Lots of good advise and experiences.

Has anyone been able to add their own service box (with permission) to run their hanger?
If so, Did you pay to install a seperate meter or did the city bear this cost?

How big of service box (Amps) did you install and/or recommend?

I have a 2 or 3 hp air compressor that pulls the most amps when plugged in, but I always pull the plug when I'm not using.

Thanks again.

Kenny Gene
294TC RV7a 576 hrs (9-5-07)
484TC RV10 finishing
Click to expand...

Who owns your hangar? Is it on a land lease? Typically the hangar is owned by a private or public entity on a land lease. You would need to find the lease agreements, covenants, or contracts that govern the acceptable useage and restrictions. Most renters never see those documents.
Your hangars already have a service. They are not sub metered. To add a separate service you would need to pull a permit, requiring a design, contractor, etc.... Unless you own the hangar, and the land, it will be very challenging, if not impossible, to get a permit to do this.
 
Kenney,

Maybe it is time to consider moving to an air park. I came out of situation similar to yours - owned the hangar on leased airport dirt, all kinds of restrictions including a max of 20 amps power service.

I now have 200 amp service and no one tells me what I can or can not do in my hangar. Life is much better. :)
 
Guys,

The city owns the airport, land, small terminal building with rest rooms and "T" hangers. There are 2 "T" hanger structures with 10 "t" units in each building. I rent 2 of the 20.

I've rented there for almost 3 years now, no problems,,, then this fairly new city manager gets on this.

What really started all the hassle was I asked the airport manager to see if the city would install a 100 or so amp service with a meter that I would pay for,,, I was thinking I would get their blessings and/or permission BEFORE I did this,, (I'm finishing up my 10 and wanted more electric, maybe even an A/C unit) and when electric dept. they came out, they shut my 20 amp breaker off! I was either at OSH or Scottsdale, so I wasn't there and even feel vialoted that they went into my hanger without me, only the airport manager. Anyway, hind sight is that I wish I would have forget the larger service.

This has started a HUGE fight,, The airport manager, all the 6 person airport board members are on my side, I understand the city counsel members don't have a problem with it and even the city electric dept is ok with it (I talked with them yesterday and he told me to just flip the breaker back on and I'm good to go)

It's the educated city manager that has gone off.

There will be an airport board meeting next week which I understand the city manager will be present at to discuss.

Hopefully cool and level minds will prevail.

Thanks.

Kenny Gene
294TC RV7a 576 hrs (9-7-7)
484TC RV10 finishing
 
It may be easier to just get a small quiet gas generator connect all the things you need to it, and wheel it outside of your hangar when you are there. You will not be able to use a fridge, but everything else should work. Probably be a ton cheaper that pulling more electrical service.
 
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