TomVal

Well Known Member
Some thoughts on managing a non-extinguishable aircraft fire:

I won’t get into the wearing of proper protective attire because this topic was discussed at length in a safety discussion authored by “dr”. This discussion also assumes that you are not equipped with an onboard fire suppression system, smoke goggles, PBE, etc.

1. Continue to FLY THE AIRPLANE
Maintain aircraft control and start pointing the aircraft in the direction of the nearest landing site, don’t waste time flying away from a potential landing site while wrestling with the emergency.

2. ANALYZE THE SITUATION
Remember to continue with Step 1. Determining the source of fire and/or smoke can be difficult to ascertain. One highly potential outcome is that the initial source of fire, (e.g. fuel), may now have progressed to igniting additional combustible materials or fluids onboard the aircraft. EAA magazine recently had an article discussing the odor characteristics of different types of burning fluids and materials.

Your instrument warning system or gauges, e.g. FQ, FF, FP, OP, OT, Amp meter, instrument failure flag, or a tripped circuit breaker, etc., may also provide useful information as to the potential source of the fire.

3. TAKE PROPER ACTION
Remember to continue with Step 1. Consider opening all sources of ventilation. If possible, crack the canopy open, that action may help pull smoke and other contaminants out of the cockpit. However, wrt opening the canopy, depending on the location of the fire, the outflow of air could possibly draw flames into the cockpit. Push in your heater control knob. Consider directing the airflow vents at your face (unless smoke is pouring out of a vent).

Get a call off to ATC, declare an emergency, and hit the ident button. You do not know how long you will have communications capability. If you are also dealing with smoke intrusion in the cockpit, the inhalation of smoke will quickly irritate your eyes, nose, and throat. Your ability to see or to speak clearly will diminish rapidly. In the mean time, ATC will notify emergency authorities and will clear all traffic that they are in communication with that is proximate to your location. They can also give you a steer to the nearest airport. You now own the skies…you won’t have to say another word.

Download all unnecessary electrical equipment. You are eliminating another possible source of fire, particularly if the heat from the original fire source begins to melt wire insulation on other components creating short circuits, sparks, or total electrical system failure.

If you feel you are dealing with a fuel tank leak that is the potential source of fire, your options are arguably limited…do you switch tanks or do you continue to feed off the leaking tank in hopes that the fuel level will drop below the level at which the tank was leaking. If the fuel leak is at the engine, you might consider closing the fuel shutoff valve and plan a forced landing.

Remember, one possible option to consider in fighting a fire related to a fuel, oil, or hydraulic/brake fluid leak, is to increase your airspeed to the maximum possible. The increase in speed may extinguish the fire. This technique may or may not work, however, keep this option in your bag of tricks. If inceasing speed extinguished the fire, be cognizant that upon slowdown, the fire may re-ignite.

Wrt using a hand held fire extinguisher, be familiar with any cautions or warnings that may apply to the operation of your fire extinguisher. In some types, the discharge of the agent in a confined space could create serious breathing issues. However, if you have fire lapping at your feet, you do not have much choice except to discharge the bottle.

You may have a detailed checklist in your POH covering Electrical or In-flight Fires. Be aware, with smoke and/or fire intrusion in the cockpit, you may have to accomplish the procedure from memory. Have a good working knowledge of your procedure in the event the checklist is unusable.

4. LAND AS SOON AS CONDITIONS PERMIT
Remember to continue with Step 1. There are many factors that may impede your progress towards landing ASAP (e.g. terrain, urban buildup, IMC versus VMC, etc). However, hopefully, you are now in a position to land. When landing is assured, what additional actions could you consider to help facilitate your ability to quickly stop and safely egress from the aircraft?

On short final, do you shutoff the fuel supply, kill all electrical, kill the ignition, wedge the canopy slightly open with a flashlight (perhaps you accomplished this step earlier)? Or do you wait until after coming to a complete stop before accomplishing any of the above items? This part of the decision tree has no correct answers, just food for thought...however, your primary concern is to Get Her Stopped, and Get Out!

I once witnessed a flight crew egress from a King Air with a serious brake fire, only to re-enter the cockpit to retrieve their flight bags while fire trucks were still on scene fighting the fire!

In conclusion, my post is not all inclusive, and is not intended to create an endless circle of debate. I hope others will add their constructive input on this topic for all to review and for us to contemplate the many variables to contend with in managing an aircraft fire.

Thank you for taking the time to read my missive!

Respectfully,
Tom
 
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Just as a small added precaution.................I have a small pair of pliers in the map box, to crimp the fuel lines where they enter the cockpit from each wing. It's a "just in case", if there is a leak before the fuel selector, that can't easily be fixed.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
 
This discussion also assumes that you are not equipped with an onboard fire suppression system, smoke goggles, PBE

Why would you not have at least the first one? I'm working on a way to have two for the engine compartment on my aircraft.

Just as a small added precaution.................I have a small pair of pliers in the map box, to crimp the fuel lines where they enter the cockpit from each wing. It's a "just in case", if there is a leak before the fuel selector, that can't easily be fixed.
That's good thinking although routing the fuel lines through the cockpit seems like a recipe for guaranteeing a post crash fire will involve the cockpit in the most expeditious manner possible.
 
.....routing the fuel lines through the cockpit seems like a recipe for guaranteeing a post crash fire will involve the cockpit in the most expeditious manner possible.

Please ellucidate on methods to avoid running fuel lines through the cockpit on single engine tractor style aircraft. It is rare for wing structure (normal fuel tank location) to be closely adjacent to areas ahead of the firewall. The only path therefore is through the cockpit.
 
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These are interesting discussions but what is the real risk?

My view is that poor maintenance/construction practices were directly responsible for two recent fires and possibly a third. Remove those from the equation and the actual risk may be close to zero.

Look at the accident causal factors and fix them. Some are construction/maintenance related but most are pilot error.
 
Ron, all accidents could be prevented by not making mistakes. Doesn't mean that thinking about, practicing, and preparing to deal with mistake-caused emergencies isn't a bad idea.
 
That's good thinking although routing the fuel lines through the cockpit seems like a recipe for guaranteeing a post crash fire will involve the cockpit in the most expeditious manner possible.

I'll take wing tanks any day...............rather than the main fuel or header tank, sitting in front of me, in the fuselage. Our wing tanks also use a forward mount, that's designed to seperate from the fuselage, should the wings be pushed aft.

L.Adamson
 
Please ellucidate on methods to avoid running fuel lines through the cockpit on single engine tractor style aircraft.

Place a tunnel for it underneath the floor of the cockpit rather than in the cockpit proper. One would have to build additional protection around the fuel lines, but the tradeoff could potentially be the difference between surviving the crash to walk away or dying after the crash.

rather than the main fuel or header tank, sitting in front of me, in the fuselage.

Agreed 100%. I'm going with wing tanks in the design I am working on but the fuel lines pass under the cabin in a way designed to minimize their risk of rupture. Of course, the lines are frangible in nature so seal off the flow from the tanks upon crash loading.
 
Place a tunnel for it underneath the floor of the cockpit rather than in the cockpit proper. One would have to build additional protection around the fuel lines, but the tradeoff could potentially be the difference between surviving the crash to walk away or dying after the crash.

Gear collapses, bottom of airframe screeches across asphalt, tunnel is breached, sparks fly.....

Besides, I'd rather see that my fuel lines are not leaking. I also prefer seeing the connection to the aux fuel pump, as well as the fuel totalizer sender...........every time I get into the plane.

The big "boom"............that I see often, is when the main tanks are breached, and it's instantaneous or fractions of a second delay. It's all those gallons in the tanks, that I'd worry about.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Steve,

Since your signature says that you are a Crash Survivability Researcher, I wonder if you might have studied post-crash fire incidence in RV's. I would be interested to know the percentage of fatalities caused by post-crash fires - not just the percentage of crashes that ended in fires, but the ones where the crash was survivable, yet the fatality was caused by the fire. I am sure that there must be some, but my impression (based only on anecdotal evidence) is that it is fairly small. I'd like to see effort put into areas where real improvement to the fatal accident statistics could be made - whatever those turn out to be!

Paul
 
Just to keep the thread real....this was a highly experienced aviator, flying in the pattern:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001211X11589&ntsbno=LAX99LA063&akey=1

The engine compartment fire was a problem, but fire in the cabin killed him.

My own plan? I expect an engine compartment fire to be a non-event.....no significant heat or smoke in the cabin, by design. I'll shut down the powerplant, fly the airplane, and let the fire burn itself out. The risk factor will be in the subsequent landing.

Detail picture; there are only two fuel sources, avgas or oil. The avgas source is likely to be a line or fitting leak. Oil may be a line or fitting leak, or may be a case breach.

Turning the fuel valve to "off" will stop avgas flow to the leak, and shut down the engine. However, if the fuel source is engine oil then flow into the fire will continue until engine rotation is stopped or all six quarts are exhausted.

So....the procedure is the usual with the addition of #2:

(1) positive fire indication = fuel shutoff
(2) engine oil on cowl or windshield = pitch up to stop prop
(3) set up best glide
(4) aim for landing site
(5) declare emergency
(6) belts tight
(7) master off prior to flare
 
What is a PBE?

Jeremy Constant

A smoke hood, usually with air filtration or contained air source. Google smokehood/PBE for some examples. They are required equipment in airliner cockpits.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Any Emergency:
1. Maintain Control of the Aircraft
2. Determine precise nature of emergency
3. Execute immediate action items and troubleshoot as required
4. Determine Landing Criteria and land as required.

Engine Compartment Fire

1. Confirm fire
2. Fuel valve - off
3. Engine Failure Procedure - execute
4. Fire continues - Fire T-Handle - Pull
5. Fire continues into cockpit - Cockpit Fire Procedure execute
6. Fire continues not gonna make the the landing - 9mm unholster, pull trigger (if flying with a passenger be courteous and offer them the first shot)

Cockpit Fire

1. Master - Off
2. Portable Fire Extinguisher - as required
3. Fire continues - Land Immediately
4. Smoke and Fumes Elimination Procedure - as required
 
Just to keep the thread real....this was a highly experienced aviator, flying in the pattern:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001211X11589&ntsbno=LAX99LA063&akey=1

(1) positive fire indication = fuel shutoff
(2) engine oil on cowl or windshield = pitch up to stop prop
(3) set up best glide
(4) aim for landing site
(5) declare emergency
(6) belts tight
(7) master off prior to flare

I like your list, Dan but I've always been taught a couple of other things. When you shut the fuel off, go WOT (wide open throttle). Let the engine burn internally all remaining fuel. Yeah, there's no going to be a whole lot between the selector and the engine, but there will certainly be quite a bit if for example you have a carb and gascolator.

Also, I've been taught that *if* altitude permits one should dive to try to extinguish the fire.

Of course these are only pertinent to an engine fire and not an electrical fire.

Thoughts?
 
many WWI pilots flew with a .45 (prior to chutes) for in-flight fires. While I don't really carry a .45 or a 9mm the point is you may not have any options and it is going to hurt so build and maintain your aircraft correctly.

Dan - try to relax...
 
Detail picture; there are only two fuel sources, avgas or oil. The avgas source is likely to be a line or fitting leak. Oil may be a line or fitting leak, or may be a case breach.

Excellent points. I would also like to add that in more complex aircraft, such as those with retractable gear (I can't remember if some of the RVs have retracts or not- all the ones have seen are fixies- and if they do if it's an electric or hydraulic system) but hydraulic fluid is also relatively flammable and can be a fuel source in your have a locked brake resulting in overheating, etc.
 
Steve,

Since your signature says that you are a Crash Survivability Researcher, I wonder if you might have studied post-crash fire incidence in RV's. I would be interested to know the percentage of fatalities caused by post-crash fires - not just the percentage of crashes that ended in fires, but the ones where the crash was survivable, yet the fatality was caused by the fire. I am sure that there must be some, but my impression (based only on anecdotal evidence) is that it is fairly small. I'd like to see effort put into areas where real improvement to the fatal accident statistics could be made - whatever those turn out to be!

Paul

I have the data at home for RVs since I pulled it together for another project I was working on. It was a comparison of % of crashes that resulted in the various degrees of injury (none, minor, serious, fatal), the causes of death where available and the frequency of fire. I had been looking at comparing the data between commercially built and homebuilts. Let me pull it together in a more user friendly format and I'll be happy to share it with you if you think it would help.

I agree that the focus needs to be where the problem lies but at the same time if we fix one issue (say increasing the structural integrity or installing a better seat in the cockpit) without looking at the bigger picture of reducing the post-crash fire risk (which is in some ways a lot easier to do) then you then you risk simply shifting the mortality from blunt trauma to thermal trauma and/or toxic exposures.
 
Gear collapses, bottom of airframe screeches across asphalt, tunnel is breached, sparks fly.....

Which is another reason why I am including the use of a rubberized fuel line with a braided steel harness as is used in US Army helicopter crashworthy fuel systems. Its not the cheapest option but then again I'll trade a few dollars more the piece of mind.


Besides, I'd rather see that my fuel lines are not leaking. I also prefer seeing the connection to the aux fuel pump, as well as the fuel totalizer sender...........every time I get into the plane.

Thats your own perogative.

The big "boom"............that I see often, is when the main tanks are breached, and it's instantaneous or fractions of a second delay. It's all those gallons in the tanks, that I'd worry about.

Right....but if the wings are designed to seperate, the chances of there being a "big boom" is minimized at least in the immediate vicinity of the cockpit somewhat. However, it doesn't take much 100LL to get an uncontrollable fire started in the floorboard of an aircraft that isn't designed to be flame-resistant.

This is assuming that the way the tanks are designed to seperate doesn't immediately result in the spilling and likely ignition of the majority of the fuel on board.
 
When you shut the fuel off, go WOT (wide open throttle). Let the engine burn internally all remaining fuel.....Also, I've been taught that *if* altitude permits one should dive to try to extinguish the fire....Thoughts?

I'm thinking the first might help and cannot hurt. The second, although traditional, seems iffy to me. Excellent subjects for beer:30 at Triple Tree?

many WWI pilots flew with a .45 (prior to chutes) for in-flight fires.

Yeah, and Lufbury jumped and died on a picket fence rather than face the flames. I know the stories. The current theme is eliminating the need to die bravely.

...but hydraulic fluid is also relatively flammable and can be a fuel source.......

Relocate the master cylinder to well behind the firewall, and no plastic brake lines where they can melt. No penalty to either change.
 
Yeah, and Lufbury jumped and died on a picket fence rather than face the flames. I know the stories. The current theme is eliminating the need to die bravely.

Dan - I concur completely. I know you don't like my 9mm comment, but please be assured it is fire for effect only (pun intended). The thought of having a screaming loved one in my back seat for the 2-5 minutes it might take to get on the ground reminds me to be extra vigilant whenever I have opportunity to inspect... at 10K ft with flames in the cockpit you have only two choices - extinguish the flames or die.

When conducting high altitude testing to 23K of the H-6, we took the doors off, wore portable O2 and parachutes. If a cockpit fire started at best it would take 6 minutes to autorotate to the ground. Only option was to jump - 6 minutes is longer than I leave a steak on the grill for it to be medium rare.
 
Relocate the master cylinder to well behind the firewall, and no plastic brake lines where they can melt. No penalty to either change.

Actually there was a very good design for making the cylinder even tougher back in the mid-1970s or so. I'm working on improving that idea myself in a way that's easy to produce and easily retrofitable.
 
Dan - I concur completely. I know you don't like my 9mm comment, but please be assured it is fire for effect only (pun intended). The thought of having a screaming loved one in my back seat for the 2-5 minutes it might take to get on the ground reminds me to be extra vigilant whenever I have opportunity to inspect... at 10K ft with flames in the cockpit you have only two choices - extinguish the flames or die.

If there is no other choice, then suck the smoke, and pass out.
I've now had three experiences in my life, which gives me an idea of how the body and mind reacts. One was a neighbors house fire. I was intent on saving two young boys trapped in the basement, before firefighters arrived. The smoke was extremely acidic. Wouldn't take much inhaling to be redndered unconscious. The boys did end up unconscious, but were revived. If it's a World Trade Center scenario, I'll now inhale before jumping.

In the second situation, I was at the beginning phase of being crushed by an overhead crane, that ran on rails. I passed out. Happily, the crane was stopped before major damage.

Third-----Hit a deer on a motorcycle last year at 65 mph. I was immediately ejected, and flip/flopped approx. 150' down the highway. It was surreal. Time appeared to slow down, and there was no feeling of pain. And that's pretty good, considering a majority of bones on my left side were broken, including all left ribs. My mind was just wondering when I would finally decelerate. BTW-- did have a helmet on.

So there you have it. Sometimes the brain and body, take care of the situation. No guarantees though. But at least I feel a bit better about these types of life and death situations.

L.Adamson
 
... Third-----Hit a deer on a motorcycle last year at 65 mph ...

Wow. I've never seen a deer on a motorcycle. Saw a video of a bear riding a bicycle at a circus once ... :D

Sounds like you've used up a few of your 9 lives, buddy ... fly safely.
 
Help with posting an audio file

I need help getting this posted. I have an audio file (windows media / mp3 sound) of United Flight 497 handling smoke in the cockpit. It is an excellent example of crew management of the situation. They immediately requested a return to the field, declared an emergency, was assertive with their request regarding landing runway, and lost all instrumentation during their approach. The landing was successful. If someone could figure out how to get this file posted I will email it to you. I am computer challeged when it comes to handling files such as this.


[ed. the audio is available here]
Thanks,

[email protected]

Thanks dr!
 
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