[gvgoff99]

I have seen several discussions where people are inquiring about the difficulty of flying a tail dragger. I am curious about how many people have actually ground looped a RV? Stories would be interesting.
A survey would be nice if Doug has a chance to make one up. Here are my suggestions:
1. I have had "NO Problem" landing my tailwheel RV.
1. I have come close to ground looping a tailwheel RV.
2. I have ground looped a tailwheel RV with no damage.
3. I have ground looped a tailwheel RV and damaged it.
4. My ground loop was the result of loosing control due to a mechanical problem.
5. My ground loop was due to loss of control only.

 

[PCHunt]

And maybe one more:

Have any tailwheel RV's ended up inverted after the event?

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Not sure? Don't plan on finding out personally

I have seen several discussions where people are inquiring about the difficulty of flying a tail dragger. I am curious about how many people have actually ground looped a RV? Stories would be interesting.
A survey would be nice if Doug has a chance to make one up. Here are my suggestions:
1. I have had "NO Problem" landing my tailwheel RV.
1. I have come close to ground looping a tailwheel RV.
2. I have ground looped a tailwheel RV with no damage.
3. I have ground looped a tailwheel RV and damaged it.
4. My ground loop was the result of loosing control due to a mechanical problem.
5. My ground loop was due to loss of control only.

Have you flown a taildragger? My advice to anyn one that has not is do it. Go fly a tail dragger with a CFI and get some TG time in different planes. Than you can answer the question, and the answer is mostly #1.

Stuff happens and RV's TG's are super easy to fly compared to any TG I have flown. Most accidents are caused by pilot control input or lack thereof. The damage I have seen or heard of varies from minor, pride only, to significant damage, bent gear and wing tip. If taken far enough you can end up on your back. This applies to Trikes as well.

What about mechanical failure, brake, tire, cable, tail wheel? Usually not a big deal and most RV's with a mechanical issue of a directional control components, as mentioned, have turned out OK.

You might as well ask how many folks with Trikes have lost control on landing, ground looped or flipper doodle.

 

[Geico266]

You can make a poll if you are the starter of the thread.

Everytime you fly a TG you are close to ground looping it. You have to make the plane do what you want.

 

[yakdriver]

You can make a poll if you are the starter of the thread.

Everytime you fly a TG you are close to ground looping it. You have to make the plane do what you want.

Man, I've got over 4000 landings in a tailwheel and didn't realize this. I guess I'll have to be a lot more carefull or sell the 7. Don

 

[Rocketboy]

Never Ground looping is an Attitude!

"...Everytime you fly a TG you are close to ground looping it."

Uh...not in my opinion.

I feel the Vans line of convential gear aircraft are much like a Pitts, and very unlike a Stearman/Beech 18 type in that:

The Stearman/18 type has little excess rudder steering authority and if you let it get pointed too far from the "direction of travel", it's difficult if not impossible to bring it back, and "OOH WHEEEE..HERE WE GO 'ROUND". No stopping it.

The Vans line, like the Pitts have powerful tailwheel/rudder control systems. A pilot who has firmly commited his mind/body to not ground looping will not!

These type aircraft can be ham fistedly thown very sideways, through in-attnetion, inexperience or whatever, and brought back with no more harm than a big black tire mark on the runway. Sure it's hard on tires, but a determined pilot CAN and will bring it back. It may take full up elevator, with full rudder, tons of brake and full power, but it is fixable. And yes a go around is sometimes the best option.

IMPORTANT ***Pilots who give up are the ones who end up ground looping***

Wanna a good taildragger pilot, be an instructor doing tailwheel transition training. YIKES! It's an eye opening experience when you see what a student can throw at you.

Never ground looping is an attitude.


RB

(19,000 hrs total time, 5000 hrs tailwheel, a couple bizzilion landings, about 2000 hrs in the instructor seat as instructor in Pitts, T-craft, Cubs, Stearmans, Cap-10s, Citabrias, Decathalons, BE-18's, Stolp Straduster II's, and god only knows how many other antiques, hombuilts, ultralights etc.) ZERO ground loops, but lots of interesting recoveries !

 

[Mike S]

I have seen several discussions where people are inquiring about the difficulty of flying a tail dragger. I am curious about how many people have actually ground looped a RV? Stories would be interesting.
A survey would be nice if Doug has a chance to make one up. Here are my suggestions:
1. I have had "NO Problem" landing my tailwheel RV.
1. I have come close to ground looping a tailwheel RV.
2. I have ground looped a tailwheel RV with no damage.
3. I have ground looped a tailwheel RV and damaged it.
4. My ground loop was the result of loosing control due to a mechanical problem.
5. My ground loop was due to loss of control only.

Done.

By the way, I flew a tailwheel Stinson---just like the one in Dougs landing accident photos----for 21 years, never had any problem.

Just get some good instruction.

Having forklift experience helped me to understand the way these things handle

 

[John Clark]

Ah, yup!

IMPORTANT ***Pilots who give up are the ones who end up ground looping***

Wanna a good taildragger pilot, be an instructor doing tailwheel transition training. YIKES! It's an eye opening experience when you see what a student can throw at you.

Never ground looping is an attitude.


RB

(19,000 hrs total time, 5000 hrs tailwheel, a couple bizzilion landings, about 2000 hrs in the instructor seat as instructor in Pitts, T-craft, Cubs, Stearmans, Cap-10s, Citabrias, Decathalons, BE-18's, Stolp Straduster II's, and god only knows how many other antiques, hombuilts, ultralights etc.) ZERO ground loops, but lots of interesting recoveries !

I agree completely, I really learned how to fly tailwheels when I was instructing in a Cessna 140. Soloed 21 students in the thing. No groundloops. But a few stories... Served me very well later flying Beech 18s, DC-3s, Wacos, Stearmans, and a bunch of other things with the little wheel in back.

John Clark ATP CFI
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[RatMan]

Having forklift experience helped me to understand the way these things handle

Ha! I 'ground looped' a forklift about 22 years ago. Scared the heck out of me! Wasn't pretty but somehow it stopped with all 6 wheels on the ground.

 

[szicree]

Never ground looped a forklift, but I did see a guy fly one once -- right off a loading dock!

 

[Kyle Boatright]

One of the hard things in this thread is that most RV pilots have not groundlooped their aircraft. I know I have not.

Which leaves me wondering... "How close have I come?"

Would one more degree of mis-alignment on my worst landing have caused a groundloop?

How about another foot per second of drift at touchdown?

How about that nasty gust that caught me at just the wrong time? What would have happened if it was a little earlier, later, or stronger?

I don't know, and hope I never find out.

So I can't tell you how close I've come. I can only tell you I have not.

 

[steveKs.]

I learnt tailwheel flying in a Supercub. My cropduster instructor (Craig)would kick the tail around at progressively faster taxi speeds and let me recover.

We briefed the transfer of control routine "my airplane....your airplane" before leaving the ground.

After 10 or so landings I let it get WAY outta line and Craig yelled "Oh S**T". I had full rudder and brake and shoved full power and got straightened out and went around..

Craig rebriefed that "Oh S**T" also means "My airplane".

I have 500 TW hours and think that a ground loop would have to involve a really nasty gust.

 

[gvgoff99]

Have you flown a taildragger? My advice to anyn one that has not is do it. Go fly a tail dragger with a CFI and get some TG time in different planes. Than you can answer the question, and the answer is mostly #1.

George, Actually, Yes I am tailwheel qualified and also a CFI-I. I have flown a fair amount in the following planes: J-3, Luscombe, Citaboria, and RV-6. Not a lot of experience but enough to agree that the RV is not super difficult to land. I thought the Luscombe required a LOT of attention! I started the thread so that when someone asks the question: "how hard is a RV tailwheel airplane to land?" there will be a thread to which all may refer.
I like all the answers that have been posted and hope we get a lot more posts to help validate the data.

 

[yakdriver]

The only time I groundlooped an airplane was in my SNJ. I only had about 15 hrs in it at the time and took a friend for a ride and had just a little gusty crosswind. I greased it on and was feeling pretty s**t hot and reached up and pulled the tailwheel lock off at a little faster speed than usual. It swapped ends so quick it was unreal and I ended up rolling backwards down the runway. I did have the presents of mind to add a little power to stop the airplane. I told my buddy it was a new shot field technique but he wasn't buying it. No damage. Never come close in a RV and have landed with 25-30kts direct crosswind. The Pitts would take 35kts with no problem. Don

 

[n5lp]

I understand

I understand the uncertainty of those wondering about the tailwheel route. I learned to fly in Cessna 150s and 172s in the mid sixties, right around when tailwheel aircraft had pretty much gone out of style. I heard the normal stories and thought it must really take extraordinary skills to master these aircraft.

Around the late 70s some friends of mine in Utah bought a really pretty Cessna 140. I was intrigued with it and they finally gave me a chance to try it out. I was terrible. I weaved on takeoff and crow hopped on landing. Only flew it for an hour or so, but the experience confirmed my fears, or maybe the fears contributed to my problems.

A year or two later I got to try a Super Cub with an actual instructor. Again, I would weave on takeoff but really didn't have trouble landing the Cub, with the wind down the runway. They were willing to rent it to me after this short time but I knew I wasn't competent. The fear was still there.

I wondered how in the world would someone do this with a crosswind, or at night, or after an instrument approach. It is just too demanding and too unforgiving.

Many years went by and I was now interested in RVs and decided I really wanted to master the tailwheel thing. I made a wise decision and bought a Piper Pacer. I was grandfathered in on the endorsement and there were no tailwheel qualified instructors at my airport so I got a guy, who had owned a Pacer 30 or 40 years before, to ride with me for an hour. Again, not real pretty, but it was a start. It was probably 50 or so hours until I was really competent in the Pacer and felt fine taking passengers under all conditions.

That was it. There was nothing hard about it anymore. No problems with night or crosswinds or anything else. The skills that are acquired make one feel the airplane better, I think, and actually make you more able to handle unusual conditions with more confidence.

In about 1998 I flew the Pacer over to Hicks in the Fort Worth area to get an RV-6 checkout with Mike Seager. We spent an hour of the most intense instruction I have experienced and the end of that hour I knew the RV-6 was a pussycat compared to the straightforward Pacer and that I would have no problems.

The RV-6 has just been a compete pleasure. I certainly wouldn't feel like flying it if I felt like a groundloop was imminent on each flight but instead of that there is a feeling of control and really, of ease. Sometimes I go through a stretch of dropping it in a few inches on the landing but then there are times, like lately, when I know exactly where the ground is and there is a long string of greasers, on all three tires, where the tire accelerates to full speed slowly. The feeling you get when that happens, in a tailwheel aircraft, is unlike anything obtainable in the more forgiving tricycle configuration.

It gives me great satisfaction but I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. If it is what you want, you will probably know it.

Oh, I voted I have never groundlooped and have never been close to it but that is not to say that I think it could never happen under any circumstances.

 

[JimLogajan]

Hmmm

It isn't that hard to locate RV ground loop accidents in the NTSB database, so if the accident numbers in the poll stay zero, that suggests those pilots who've ground looped an RV either don't read this forum or no one is willing to admit to said accidents.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Just a General comment

George, Actually, Yes I am tailwheel qualified and also a CFI-I. I have flown a fair amount in the following planes: J-3, Luscombe, Citaboria, and RV-6. Not a lot of experience but enough to agree that the RV is not super difficult to land. I thought the Luscombe required a LOT of attention! I started the thread so that when someone asks the question: "how hard is a RV tailwheel airplane to land?" there will be a thread to which all may refer.
I like all the answers that have been posted and hope we get a lot more posts to help validate the data.

I didn't want it to come off as talking down to you; your qualifications are not an issue. I was making a general overall comment to the 1000's of readers, some who might have tail dragger fear, not an old hand like yourself.

It's a fair question and good thread, but as Jim said most will not admit it.

Yes the Luscombe can be a hand full. The reason tiny tail and three point attitude, blanking the aforementioned smallish rudder is vary apparent. I have a hand full of hours in a Stearman and about the same in a T-6 (SNJ). Those aren't hard to fly, but being larger planes, you can't let them get away from you. Inertia is a beeeeach. (dear moderators, that's "beach" as in getting sand in your pants is no fun, or I mean beech aircraft.) As yakdriver said there are tail wheel locks.

A tail dragger requires a marginal amount of additional skill over a trike. I say marginal amount of additional skill over a trike pilot who can land his/her TRIKE skillfully. If a pilot is HAM HANDED than yes, a TRIKE might save their tail more than a tail dragger will, being a little less forgiving. If a pilot can't land a Trike well in cross wind conditions, it will not get better in a TG. If a pilot has bad or poor landing skills it does not matter what gear type they have.

I don't buy the old axiom "There are two types of tail dragger pilots, those who have ground looped and those who will." There are a lot of TG pilots who never ground looped in their flying career to the end, when they hung up their wings and retired. BUT! I don't want anyone to think I'm saying it can't happen or unlikely, just under most conditions and circumstances it's avoidable.

My flying story
The closest I got was on a slick rain soaked runway and a good strong +20 cross wind (may be gust to 30 @ 45 degrees from he runway). I landed on the upwind wheel and stayed there for awhile as I kept adding more aileron to keep it planted. As RV-4 rolled out, the down wind main finally touched with full stick into the wind, than followed by the tail wheel. As soon as the tail wheel was on it just kind of started to hop sideways. I was still maintaining direction control and aligned with the runaway, but had no control of the side hopping/skid sideways? The wind was actually sliding the plane sideways! Since the speed was low (almost stopped) it was no big deal. I just turned a little into the wind. Once stopped the tires had enough friction to stop the wind induced hop and skid. I came to a stop more into the wind. All was well. I had the stick full back and into the wind. I was sitting there thinking now what. No big deal, but the FEAR was taxing in those strong winds. I had to turn away from the wind with a tail & quartering tailwind. I used all the anti-wind control inputs I could. Got to ramp and tied down fine, but walking on the slick ramp with the wind was no fun. Its not to a brag, just that the RV has plenty of control authority. There are however limits to how much cross wind you can fly in or wind period. To my advantage (or disadvantage) I had a passenger and baggage, so I had weight to hold the tail down. Not sure what would have happened if light?

 

[hngrflyr]

I've been flying tailwheel airplanes for 53 years. I've never groundlooped. I've flown lots of them, from a Pietenpol Air Camper powered by a Model A ford engine to a T-6G. I own a Cessna 120 and an RV-6. A friend owns a Navy N3N with a R-985 in the nose, that I fly on most Fridays, when the weather is nice. The N3N doesn't have a steerable tailwheel, but it does lock for take off and landing. It is a big biplane with a large vertical tail that can make crosswind operations interesting. My RV-6 is by far, the easiest taildragger I've flown. My only complaint with it is, landing in a stiff crosswind, my leg gets in the way of getting the windward wing down as much as I would like. I try to anticipate and move my butt over as much as possible.

 

[yakdriver]

Bob, My uncle had a N3N that I flew for 16 years. It was bone stock with the Wright, no electrical system and the 30x5 tall skinny tires. I flew it all over the northwest airshows and gave hundreds of rides in it. It was a handfull in a strong crosswind but had plenty of control so you just had to fly it and it was fine. We would usually take the TBM, SNJ and N3N and the three of us would trade off so we all got to fly each one. Lot of fun when insurance was reasonable and fuel was cheap. Don

 

[Ironflight]

Don't be Fooled....But Don't be Scared...

Very interesting topic and poll!

I love the idea of getting some "facts " out there on topics that are usually discussed with a lot of second-hand stories and OWT warnings. I guess it's a good thing that I am 1500 miles away from my plane right now, or I'd be going straight out for a ground loop, because I'll admit that in 35 years of tail dragger flying, I haven't done one of those funny maneuvers either (knock on large wooden head....). But....just because the poll doesn't (yet) show any RV ground loops, doesn't mean they don't happen.

I am aware of several in the few years I've been in the RV world that have resulted in significant airframe damage, and we just have to remember that the poll is only showing results from those who see it and decide to vote. So don't be fooled - you CAN ground loop these things. However, I'd also agree with the posts above that if you keep on your toes (and use your head), there is no reason that you need to expect that it will happen. It is always possible to hit just the right combination of wind, runway, speed, slope, and stellar alignment where th plane will go around - even on the best pilot - but he chances that YOU will encounter that combination in your flying are not that high - as long as you KNOW that it can happen, and don't let things get too out of line....

Most guys that I have talked to after ground loops (in any airplane) knew and admitted that there was something they could have done to prevent it - but that knowledge came after the fact. Stay ahead of the game, respect the airplane, and know the casue of the ground loop - and keep the pointed end forward!

 

[speed]

Once you fly a taildragger, you will wish for nothing else

- I N V I C T U S -

 

[jetjok]

Exactly!

and the end of that hour I knew the RV-6 was a pussycat compared to the straightforward Pacer and that I would have no problems.
.

In addition to my RV-6, I also have an original PA-20 Pacer. This plane still has the original narrow gear (about 10-12" less track than the coversions).
I feel that the RV-6 is much more forgiving of malfeasance than the Pacer. We took the PA-20 to the Short Wing convention in Odessa/Midland a few years ago. As I think everyone will agree, the wind blows all the time. On every landing, I made a mental checklist to evaluate my position as I got closer to the flare. If I was not on speed and lined up properly, I was committed to go around.
I have seen many pilots allow a botched landing irrespective of NW or TW, to progress to an incident/accident. Most any airplane can be flown out of a bounce or loss of directional control, so do not be afraid to take it around to get yourself and the plane in a proper landing attitude. As we all know, it happens on takeoff too, and all I can say is it is just not your day! Okay, this is an RV site, so back to the TW RV's.
It was previously stated that the RV has excellent rudder and TW authority, and I agree. I think the key is to know your plane well enough to know how much control input is needed for a given situation. Also, realize that a higher speeds your feet need to be "happy", with small inputs "in/out" before the plane strays too far!
There are some very experienced aviators that have weighed in, and I will defer back to them.
I will close by saying that if the thought of trying to master a TW plane leaves you sweating in the sheets at night, get a NW RV and be done with it! These planes are way too much fun to fly to sit on the sidelines!

 

[gvgoff99]

I have seen many pilots allow a botched landing irrespective of NW or TW, to progress to an incident/accident. Most any airplane can be flown out of a bounce or loss of directional control, so do not be afraid to take it around to get yourself and the plane in a proper landing attitude. As we all know, it happens on takeoff too, and all I can say is it is just not your day!

Sage advice! A lot of enjoyable hanger flying and excellent advice in all of the posts. Good stuff. I am hoping that the anonymity of the poll will get a few of the Ground Loop guys to post but even if not it is nice to have a relatively large number of responses that support the idea that the RV's are a ton of fun to fly and land.
I look forward to a more tailwheel flying/landing stories!

 

[L.Adamson]

In
I will close by saying that if the thought of trying to master a TW plane leaves you sweating in the sheets at night, get a NW RV and be done with it! These planes are way too much fun to fly to sit on the sidelines!

The thought doesn't leave me sweating at all. As soon as I chuck the GPS and go back to NDB's or radio stations for the mental thrill of it....................I'll take up tail dragging. Maybe.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[wera710]

Taildraggers and Perception. Two words in aviation that go hand in hand. Perception is NOT everything. Nor is urban legend and aviation myth. TD guys aren't superhuman. They just learned to DO something with their feet. Short of being born a total klutz, anyone can do it.

Prior to the 1950s, how many pilots had tri-gear time? After the 1960s, how many pilots had TD time? I recall growing up hearing horror stories about Tail Draggers and ground loops and how hard it was to fly aircraft with long wings, short tails, and tightly spaced conventional gear. The Luscombe in particular came up often in this arm chair pontification fest. Man, if you listened to some of those commentarors and magazine writers, you'd fear to climb into anything other than a C-Oneboringspamcan. According to them, Luscombes, with their long wings and short tails and (OMG!) HEEL BRAKES were just downright tough to land. That was the PERCEPTION.

Then I bought one. Transitioning to the Luscombe was about the EASIEST thing I ever did. I actually preferd the heel brakes, lol. Ground handling was simple. Take-offs a joy, and landings pretty much a no brainer. Seriously, what was all the fuss about?

Proving one of the following:
ONE: I am the greatest pilot on earth (NOT!)
TWO: I had a great instructor (I did and I still have the map welts to prove it)
THREE: The reasons TDs got their reputation was because a lot pilots in the 1960s forgot how to use their FEET.

Observers have told me that when I land, the rudder is in constant motion, flicking this way and that to compensate for what ever needs compensating. Beats me. I just use my feet to keep the plane straight. Its unconscious yet deliberate. Like any TD guy does. Hard? Hardly.

I have never come close to a ground loop. I've landed in cross winds that scared the **** out of me, at night no less, but as there was no choice, we got the job done together. I expect transitioning to an RV and the risk of ground looping will be no higher, or lower, than any other TD - so long as you put the time in and get some sound instruction in type. I'll find out in a week. If I manage to ground loop it I will say right now it will be because I did something stupid, not because it was a tail dragger. Stupidity trumps design every time.

So, to the point of all my rambling:
I think all this comes down to MINDSET. You either make the committment to master something, or you do not. IF you do not, then bad things can happen. Sadly, community perception is often based on a lack of fact and that lack of fact and negative perception often caused people to abstain from trying something. Don't sweat the TD factor. Ignor the BS. Get a good instructor and work to master the craft. The rewards blow away the risks.

 

[TThurston]

I talked to an RV6a Builder

Yesterday I met an RV6a builder and his plane. It's an old one - been flying for 14 years. He also showed me some pictures of previous planes, starting with military aircraft, then some big jets he flew for Northwest Airlines. Then he showed me a little tailwheel high-wing tube and fabric plane that he said was the first plane he'd built.

I asked he if he'd ever ground looped it - yes. Had ever damaged it in a ground loop - yes. This 20,000+ hour pilot said he then thought pretty hard about why he'd wanted a tailwheel, and decided he was better off flying a nose wheel plane. So he rebuilt the gear on his tube and fabric plane to switch to nose wheel, and didn't even consider tail wheel for his RV.

But yesterday I also found a local CFR that said he'd be happy to teach tailwheel stuff in my plane if I decided to build one.

I'm just gathering data - a new pilot with only about 160 hours.

 

[Danny7]

George, Actually, Yes I am tailwheel qualified and also a CFI-I. I have flown a fair amount in the following planes: J-3, Luscombe, Citaboria, and RV-6. Not a lot of experience but enough to agree that the RV is not super difficult to land. I thought the Luscombe required a LOT of attention! I started the thread so that when someone asks the question: "how hard is a RV tailwheel airplane to land?" there will be a thread to which all may refer.
I like all the answers that have been posted and hope we get a lot more posts to help validate the data.

next time you do a poll leave an option for "no experience" or "i like pie" so someone can vote without skewing your data. until i vote i can't see the results, which i think would be interesting.

 

[Mike S]

next time you do a poll leave an option for "no experience" or "i like pie" so someone can vote without skewing your data. until i vote i can't see the results, which i think would be interesting.

Having an option like that would skew the data.

Try logging out, and then looking at the poll-------you wont be able to vote, but you can see the status.

 

[Brantel]

Just click this link to see without voting:

 

[uk_figs]

Perspective from the RV bench

These threads are always very interesting and informative, I decided I really wanted a TD RV and switched from a -7A to a -7 during the build. As I am a low time pilot (170 hours) I decided to get a tailwheel endorsement even though I could have grandfathered in as I did fly a Great Lakes for about 10 hours in the late 70's. I also bought a PA-20 Pacer to get proficient and keep the skill set current.
In my case it was not as easy as I thought it would be to get reasonably proficient and the Pacer still requires my full attention on every landing after about 80 hours but I am getting better all the time and do not regret my decision.
From what I have researched to date the RV will be a lot easier to land than the Pacer but will still require your full attention until tied down.
As has been noted in this thread if you are not straight on landing you can go around which I have done more than once.
I figure you build what you want and learn how to fly it with some good instruction. I plan on transition training when I get close to being finished.

 

[yakdriver]

Dave, The Pacer is a great tailwheel trainer. It does require more attention than the average airplane so when you get into your 7 the first time you will wonder what is all the fuss about this tailwheel stuff. A Great Lakes was my first tailwheel airplane also. Don