G

GSchuld

Well Known Member
I have been lurking for quite a while but this is my first post. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the information/stories on this forum. I am not a pilot, but have always had significant interest in flying. A recent trip from NJ to Michican and back in a Beechcraft Bonanza with a pilot who graciously allowed me to fly his plane 90% of the time both ways has only served to increase my interest:D. And yes, if the logistics work out, I am considering obtaining a PPL and building a plane.

As part of an investment property purchase, I now am the proud owner of an approved 1900ft grass airstrip in Rockingham Vermont. The strip is fairly level and has 30-40ft trees at one end and 10-15ft trees on the other. My main question would be what type of planes are suitable for such an airstrip. The seller only flew ultralights from the strip but had listed the possible future use of a Cessna 150 or 172 to the application for the creation of his airstrip.
I would assume that any manner of STOL aircraft would be comfortable there. Ultralights would be a given. I imagine the LSA type planes may have a reasonable chance? Would it be safe to assume that a higher performance plane such as an RV-3/4/6/7 etc. would be too difficult to operate safely from this feild without resorting to daredevil piloting skills? There is a possibility of being able to purchase the property bordering the 30-40ft tree end in order to clear that end of the runway to deck level. I imaging that would help quite a bit.
Depending on a few factors with the rest of the property, I would consider selling the airstrip portion to a pilot. Who knows. In the meantime, it would be great to get a good idea as to what could be safely flown from there.

George
 
GSchuld said:
...As part of an investment property purchase, I now am the proud owner of an approved 1900ft grass airstrip in Rockingham Vermont. The strip is fairly level and has 30-40ft trees at one end and 10-15ft trees on the other. My main question would be what type of planes are suitable for such an airstrip...
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George, depending on the smoothness, that strip should be suitable for many small aircraft, including pretty much all RVs. There was a popular fly-in held for many years near Waco, Texas at a grass strip of that length, but about 500 feet lower, with trees at both ends and also a pretty good slope. Many different types of well flown airplanes operated off this strip, but I also saw an incident one year when an RV approached a bit fast and high.
 
1900' is adequate for the 3,4,6,7,8 & 9. The 10 and 12 I don't know about.

You could also operate a 172, especially the 180hp models. The basic point is that most any lightly loaded GA aircraft that you could operate on grass will work on 1900'. Even a Bonanza.

Make sure to have an instructor with you the first time you attempt it though.
 
grass envy

I've flown off a 2000' grass strip for years. About anything with pistons can operate off your 1900 feet of grass with attention to fuel and weight and technique. The RV's are not challenged with that much runway, well within safety envelope.

You're lucky. At least for the portion of the year that it's not frozen up there.
 
Now wait a minute....

If the distance between the trees (almost 50 ft tall on one end) is only 1900 ft, that I would classify this as a challenging landing and takeoff.
Yes I think that it could be done, but not by every plane and certainly not every pilot.

I don't have my POH handy, but I think that the 50 ft clearance would be over 1000 ft, if you do everything right.

Kent
 
Interesting. Thanks for the thoughts. Most people that I have talked to mention concerns and difficulty with faster small low wing planes having "ground effect float issues". I figured taking off would not be much of a problem, more of the getting down and getting stopped kind of issue. Maybe I should give the grass a good fresh cut and invite someone to give it a try:D. Unfortunately the house is totally empty and I life 300 miles away, otherwise I'd offer a place to stay. Anyone interested in "indoor camping"? All the utilities are on. There is a very nice bed and breakfast down the road as well. The airstrip is located at 24 Rocky Rd. Rockingham, VT. 43' 14'09.14" N 72' 32'23.45" W

The strip is not currently listed on any Vermont website that I am aware of, but it is there. The latest Googlemaps version is pretty impressive and gives a pretty good look at the strip.

George
 
GSchuld said:
Interesting. Thanks for the thoughts. Most people that I have talked to mention concerns and difficulty with faster small low wing planes having "ground effect float issues". I figured taking off would not be much of a problem, more of the getting down and getting stopped kind of issue. Maybe I should give the grass a good fresh cut and invite someone to give it a try:D. Unfortunately the house is totally empty and I life 300 miles away, otherwise I'd offer a place to stay. Anyone interested in "indoor camping"? All the utilities are on. There is a very nice bed and breakfast down the road as well. The airstrip is located at 24 Rocky Rd. Rockingham, VT. 43' 14'09.14" N 72' 32'23.45" W

The strip is not currently listed on any Vermont website that I am aware of, but it is there. The latest Googlemaps version is pretty impressive and gives a pretty good look at the strip.

George
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Low wings do magnify the impact of ground effect, but the factors that can harm an RV's short field performance are a high idle speed combined with a cruise pitched prop added to a too-fast approach on landing. IMO, a constant speed prop would be very helpful when operating out of the strip you describe. Yes, you can use the strip with a fixed pitch airplane, but the C/S prop will greatly reduce your takeoff/climb distance in addition to providing less thrust in the landing flare and roll-out.
 
Welcome !!!!

George, welcome to the active side of VAF.

Sorry I cant give you a ride, but what you are asking is certainly doable.

Just be prepared for the inevitable nosewheel/tailwheel banter.:eek:

Glad you came in out of the shadows.
 
George,

There is a really good EAA chapter based in Old Bridge, http://www.eaa315.org/.

Contact them and see if someone there will give you a ride. That will give you an idea how little runway the RV's use, which is much less than your friend's Bonanza. (Ask for a ride in Claudio's RV-8, Purple Passion II.)

Grass strips are great but you have to keep them mowed and will probably want to roll it at least once a year. Long grass can lengthen your take off roll and shorten your landing roll. The rolling will help keep it smooth, which is a good thing. Come winter, you can have it plowed after the ground freezes and still use it. Of course it will be a bit slippery but nothing you can't handle with good piloting technique.

And welcome to the VAF forum.
 
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Polo ...Yeah, the strip will be useless for atleast 4 months a year:(.

Kent B ...Your response is what I was expecting really.

Kyle ...Good point about the C/S vs fixed prop, I have read the same point in other threads.

Mike S ...Thanks for the thoughts. And just for the record, I favor a 2 place side by side taildragger ...so flame away:D

George
 
N941WR,

Thanks. I've heard about the Old Bridge group. Luckily I'm a bit distracted right now to spent too much time asking people for rides. Plus, at 6' 3" and 235 lbs, my oversized German frame might make me a somewhat less than ideal ballast. I will look into the rolling of the grass runway concept, that one is new to me. I own a 3000lb static roller with a 4ft wide track, but at a 2hph top speed I'd be out there for about 10 years covering the whole strip:eek:

George
 
Your size and weight shouldn't be much of an issue. I gave a ride to a guy who was 280 and my -9 didn't have a problem with him and me (230 lbs) and I only have 135 HP up front.

The speed of your roller might be a problem. Most I have seen are the kind you pull behind a farm tractor. At least they go a little faster, besides, you offer some guy free tie-down or hanger space (he provides the building) to maintain the runway for you. Then you don't have to spend your weekends sitting on the tractor.
 
Density altitude shouldn't be a problem there, from what I understand of Vermont, but if you get hot summer days, that will affect performance.

Also, think about the length of runway required to attempt a landing, bounce and then go-around. It's a non-trivial amount, and you want to be able to go around if you botch a landing or if there are other reasons (e.g., critters on the runway). Lots of people have never gone around in their lives (good for them), but it only takes one time, and then you'll really want to have enough distance to safely go-around.....

TODR
 
N941WR

Actually, I do have a pull behind roller that was used for baseball/football fields that has about a 7ft wide swath. The roller deal probably does not weigh more than 600-700lbs though. Would that do?



I agree with the bounce and go around room. Good point.

George
 
Sid Lambert said:
1900' is adequate for the 3,4,6,7,8 & 9. The 10 and 12 I don't know about.
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Not a problem at all for the -10 on take off, landing you need to be on your "A" game. Certainly doable, but you need to be right on the numbers or you'll float and eat up runway fast. A few weeks ago I went into a 2,500' grass strip hot (10mph over normal) and used all of the runway but 150' to get stopped. Not one of my better landings, but it was close to lunch and I was hungry! The problem is compounded by what I call "Lazy Landings". Using an airport with 5,000' of runway so landings get progressively longer and "lazier". With a little practice 1,500' is doable.

I'm sure the -12 could handle it just fine.
 
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sample performance numbers

1979 Cessna 172 at gross weight (2300 lbs.), on a dry grass runway, no wind, standard temperature:

1615 feet total to take off and clear a 50' obstacle.
1503 feet total to land over a 50' obstacle and stop.

1981 Cessna 152 at gross weight (1670 lbs.), on a dry grass runway, no wind, standard temperature:

1503 feet total to take off and clear a 50' obstacle.
1433 feet total to land over a 50' obstacle and stop.

Remember, all those numbers are based on a brand new airplane operated by a skilled factory test pilot under controlled conditions.
 
The tall trees........

......can cost 500 feet to come over and then land, making the strip a bigger challenge than if one end, at least, had no trees. This length has no room for error so if you can possibly buy one end and have a level approach, it'd be a big safety factor,

Welcome, George,
 
This is one of those situations where a CS prop and an AOA meter can come in VERY handy, both for dragging in to drop it on the threshold and for quick go-arounds.
 
Steve, thanks for the video link. That's only 1020ft. I didn't realize that an RV-4 could handle such a short runway. Unfortunately, my strip isn't as straight and level as yours. There is a gradual curve totalling about 10 degrees near the middle of it's length and there the strip is a bit swayback in shape from end to end. I'd say that the middle is maybe 15ft lower than the ends elevation wise and carries a fairly gradual curve.

Pierre, Thanks for the welcome. The possibility of being able to clear the 30-40ft tree end totally out would generally make it a fairly "low risk" grass strip, yes? Of course, this assumes that it would be kept smooth, pothole free, and the grass mowed regularly.

Airguy, CS prop. I keep hearing that they help a bunch on short strips. A few more times and it might even peretrate my incredibly thick scull. Seriously, good stuff. You guys are great...

George
 
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George,

I operate a 160hp fixed pitch 6A (with the original nosewheel fork) from an 1800ft grass strip with a few lumps & bumps along it and with both ends lower than the middle. I don't brake much and have not used more than 2/3rds of the strip landing or taking off, even at max weight with not much wind. Elevation is 500'. The approaches are reasonably clear; I don't think 10' trees on the approach would change much. With 50' trees on the approach some practice would be required at light weight and in favorable conditions. I also regularly go to a 1500' grass strip and land on that without any problems (not much braking and don't use the full length) - so I would not expect you to have any problems once you have some practice. Get someone to show you the technique and all will be well. Practice in a 152 or 172 will also be useful.

Pete
 
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Hi George,

This thread was mentioned in Bob Collins' RV Hotline, so I dropped in to check it out. Assuming your strip is the one I am thinking of (next to the interstate), I've been by it many times, and was under the impression in the last couple years that it was defunct. Glad to hear you've got it & interested in keeping it going.

I'm building an RV-7A, and it's now in my hangar at Springfield, just 1 exit north of you. I'm also flying a Challenger II while trying to complete the RV.

Some time when you're going to be up here, let me know & I can drive or fly down & say hi, and/or you can stop by the hangar & see the RV.

brianpublic2 at starband dot net

brian
 
Brian,

Thanks for saying hello. Yes, you are thinking about the right strip. It's just north of and paralleling the Williams river next to 103 about 3 miles east of downtown Chester. The "Harvey airstrip" is fully legal. I just had a nice talk with Guy Rouelle down at the Vermont Aeronautics office about it. He knows the strip very well. He flew the state owned Cessna in and out of there a few times over the years for regulatory "house calls". It's been a few years since Harvey, or anyone else, flew out of there (2004 or 2005), but the strip has obtained permanent status after going through two seperate 5yr interval reviews. I'd really like to meet up with you. I'll most likely be heading up there within the next month for atleast a day or two anyway. I have driven to the Springfield airport to check it out. Nice long runways:D. Looks like a good place to be based out of. There doesn't see to be too many airport options around up there. Give me a call anytime, I'd love to talk to some of the Vermont flyers.

George

1(732)966-7981 (cell -anytime day or night ...I'll be awake:D)
 
I like lots of margin. No one I know makes perfect approaches every time and conditions change--you might get a gust or lose the wind on short final. Or you leave on a cool morning, get delayed coming back and by the time you get back it's 85 degrees. So I like lots of margin. And for a Cessna, being on the cautious side, I'd get one with a STOL kit for that strip--300 feet or so of margin for a standard day isn't enough, because standard days are not standard.

What kind of flying do you suppose you would like to do? For cross country, an RV is great; for just local sightseeing mostly by yourself an old taildragger like a Champ would work just fine, especially if cost is an issue, but at your size a Taylorcraft is out of the picture. Lots of variables to consider. But the strip is plenty long for the right plane.
 
RScott,

I am interested in a two place side by side taildragger for both local fun and some light to ? traveling with the wife, friends, etc. I live in New Jersey, 5 minutes from the local airport. Being able to zip up to Vermont, for example, would be great(the drive is typically less than appealing). As for planes, basically an RV-7 if I was to build an RV. Real nice planes. I have spent 10 years in the past building wood/composite high end boats, so a composite airplane naturally suits my skills and interest more. I have tremendous respect for the RV line and the people that fly them, enough that I would consider going that route. The "Harvey airstrip" is not suitible for a beginner as far as I'm concerned, at least without using a STOL airplane, which I am not currently interested in. Guy says he loves flying in there with the state's Cessna 172, but he is also a very experience pilot. Being able to clear the western end beyond of the runway so there would be a deck level run in from the west (as opposed to 40ft trees) would be a huge help though. I am with you on the lots of margin argument. My partner in the property has no interest in the airstrip or airplanes for that matter. We are in the process of subdividing some of the acreage on the property. The setback regulations required to keep the runway legal are making it difficult to keep the runway intact. The current economic market is not helping my interest in convincing my partner to sacrifice $ for the sake of my airplane interests. As it turns out, creating a private airstrip in Vermont is typically very easy to do. According to the guy in charge at the Vermont Aeronautics department (Guy Rouelle), the process is inexpensive and usually takes betwen 6-12 months from start to finish. Infinitely easier than in New Jersey for sure:D. I am looking into property directly across the Williams river from my airstrip property. It has a dead straight and level 3000ft of grass with no tall obstacles on either end. That would make a far more friendly airstrip for a non STOL airplane or a fairly green pilot in an RV or similar:D. I'd be very interested in hearing from anyone who own a private turf runway about insurance and liability issues, I imagine if someone was seriously hurt or killed on a privately owner runway, the lawsuits would be inevitable and potentially devastating:(. I think I'll start a new thread on the subject actually.

George
 
Different RVs for different folks

The 6, 7 & 8 have a stall speed of about 58 mph with full flaps. The 9 stalls at about 50 mph and the 12 a bit slower. I am not sure about the 10, but some high performance birds, such as the Lancairs, have to land fast. The slower you can land, or lift off, the better you are on a grass field.

All RVs have small wheels to allow smaller, faster wheelpants, so they are not as rough field friendly as, say, a Ranns-7 or a Zenith 701 with tundra tires. RV nosegear cannot take much abuse without collapsing and doing $12-20,000 damage, something I learned first hand, although on pavement. If you plan to build an RV, plan on grooming your field and also getting skilled in short field techniques before you use it. You should not make the first flight from your home field.

That having been said, I have landed my 9-A often at 08B, Bowdoinham, ME, which is 1935X100 with 53' trees 100' from one end and 29' trees 260' from the other end. The runway is a bit rough and has a hump in the middle which can throw you back into the air if you are moving too fast. On a good landing you are at taxi speed by the time you reach the middle. On a bad landing.. go round!
 
Tom Muller said:
The 6, 7 & 8 have a stall speed of about 58 mph with full flaps.
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Not sure where your numbers come from but my -6 stalls at about 52 solo and 54 at gross weight. My home strip is 1500' with clear approaches and the only time it's any concern is with a very stiff 90* cross wind.
 
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