David_Nelson

Well Known Member
Do any of you have, and willing to share, some raw dynamic propeller balancing data that I can experiment with?

Accelerometer based would be preferred. I'll also need to know the data format/structure, units of measurement, sampling interval, etc.

Thank you,
 
Sure

Hello David, I'm trying to buy a prop balance unit. I already spent my fundage on 30,000lb capacity aircraft scales, so I'm going to have to work the balance unit on investments. If I get a couple more people together for a group buy at 250 a piece... I get the machine, they get their prop balanced... and you get the data...(If it can be recovered from the machine. I'll bend over backwards to help you get the data) I've done a TON of Track and Balance on helicopters in the service. May I ask what you are doing with the data? Maybe fatigue analyzing? You can PM me if you want. A guy in my unit used to take the sensors and place them all over the aircraft BY HAND! to sense vibration. He had the SMOOTHEST helicopter out there.... Not surprisingly, all his components seemed to last a lot longer and a lot less sheetmetal repairs were done on his aircraft. He had a publication that explained all about vibrations and how they interacted and what would happen. It dealt with gearing and ratios and all sorts of stuff. I send all my customers to get it balanced every two years or so. The guys down in Sandersville did my Grumman a long time ago and it made quite a difference. I'll admit, it's been hard to get my customers to let go of a couple hundred bucks... but they were always so complimentary after it had been done by who I sent them to. I hear the guys in Gainsville, GA do good work too. Is there anybody I can contact for you to help you get some data? What format do you need it in?

Best
Brian Wallis
 
Data

Hello David, I'm trying to buy a prop balance unit. I already spent my fundage on 30,000lb capacity aircraft scales, so I'm going to have to work the balance unit on investments. If I get a couple more people together for a group buy at 250 a piece... I get the machine, they get their prop balanced... and you get the data...(If it can be recovered from the machine. I'll bend over backwards to help you get the data) I've done a TON of Track and Balance on helicopters in the service.

Hi Brian,

If the data is easy to extract, that'd be great. Pls don't bend over backwards and break your back - I wouldn't want to interrupt any flying. :)

May I ask what you are doing with the data? Maybe fatigue analyzing?

No, nothing quite that fancy - far from it, actually. There were a couple of objectives. First, I'm trying to learn a new programming language called python. Problem is, I'm a perl, Unix/Linux shell, C kinda guy - so this python stuff is a little different for me. Anyways, to learn something new, I've got to put it into practice and not just read and do the examples in the book(s).

Secondly, I've also had an idea for interfacing to somewhat of a unique piece of h/w - of which python libraries are available on Linux, Windows, and some internet tablets. Unfortunately, some further research has shown that the h/w may not be up to the task. Oh well. I've other things I can apply python to - and at work, too!

Anyways, this prop balancing thing has had me a bit perplexed. What I couldn't figure out is how 'IPS' could describe a vibration. I mean, "inches per second" is a velocity, not an acceleration. I eventually found the answer at Sacramento Sky Ranch:

IPS defined (http://www.sacskyranch.com/vibm.htm)

IPS is just an acronym for "inches per second". When measuring a vibration, the velocity is the speed the object reaches as it passes through the center of the range of displacement. Similar to the highest speed a pendulum reaches at the center of its swing.

Velocity is arrived at by simply integrating the signal that an accelerometer produces. If you integrate a second time, you get displacement.

It has been found through experience that velocity is a better unit of measurement to use if you want the numbers to track with how severe a vibration is independent of RPM. In other words, a 1 IPS vibration is pretty severe no matter if the object is turning at 200 RPM or 200,000 RPM. This is not true for units of acceleration or displacement.

Now, for harmonic oscillation, the acceleration is just omega times the
velocity; for, say 2400 rpm (fundamental frequency of 40 Hz), your vibration of 1 IPS corresponds to an acceleration of 20.9 ft per sec^2 or about 0.7 Gs. That does seem a fairly healthy vibration for the front end of an engine with propeller.

It takes on average 65 grams to correct for a 1 IPS vibration. But this value
varies greatly from ship to ship. From a low of 20 to a high of 130.



Ok, so this got me thinking (dangerous, I know). I envisioned, very simplistically, a pencil attached to the tip of the spinner that writes on a sheet of fixed stationary paper in polar coordinates. If the prop were unbalanced, the pencil would draw a circle. That seems easy enough to integrate. I realise this doesn't tell me where the imbalance is, just the magnitude.

You can PM me if you want. A guy in my unit used to take the sensors and place them all over the aircraft BY HAND! to sense vibration. He had the SMOOTHEST helicopter out there.... Not surprisingly, all his components seemed to last a lot longer and a lot less sheetmetal repairs were done on his aircraft. He had a publication that explained all about vibrations and how they interacted and what would happen. It dealt with gearing and ratios and all sorts of stuff. I send all my customers to get it balanced every two years or so. The guys down in Sandersville did my Grumman a long time ago and it made quite a difference. I'll admit, it's been hard to get my customers to let go of a couple hundred bucks... but they were always so complimentary after it had been done by who I sent them to. I hear the guys in Gainsville, GA do good work too. Is there anybody I can contact for you to help you get some data? What format do you need it in?

Best
Brian Wallis

interesting about the helicopter and its maintenance record. As you can see/read this is just for my curiosity and entertainment. Seriously though, if the data is easily retrievable, I'd appreciate it. if not, that's Ok, too. As for format, I'd think I could accept anything - as long as the encoding is known.

Thank you,
 
Inbound

Well.... I ordered the prop balancer... it will be here in a couple of days. I'm excited... it's a TON lighter than what we used in the Army! That thing was HUGE! I'll call Mr Fox tomorrow and see what the format is, also to see if it's obtainable. I'm going to balance my RV-3 with the new Catto prop on it... an RV-6 then two 172's and then an Arrow and then a TON of cropdusters both turbine and piston.... Then a couple of twins. Then to top off the cake, and for a bit of fun, I'm going to balance the prop on a powered parachute. You can have all the data you want! Videos too! I'm going to record it on camera per request of one of the engineers. I'd be happy to put on a spare accel or two if you want or any testing equipment you happen to have. Just let me know what you need. I can see it now.... Honey.... what is that on the ceiling fan?.... "Well.... what had happened wuz...." ;)
Best
Brian Wallis
 
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Ceiling Fan!

The ceilling fan idea is great! :) I recently replaced the one in the kitchen and had fits balancing it.
 
Tips

I'll take you through what we would do on the chopper to shed a little light on the whole track and balance thing.....
Step one. We would bring all four blades into "Track". I would designate the yellow blade as the master. I then would make PC rod adjustments to bring the other three blades into the same path as the yellow blade. We would do this on the ground with a camera mounted on the front to track the blades. We had a mag pickup on the swashplate to talk to the unit for RPM measurements.

The same is true for prop airplanes. When you mount a prop, you want to make sure the blades are the same length. (yes I've seen it) and you want to make sure that the blades follow the same path. The cheezy way to do is is to take something on the ground and place it exactly at the tip of the blade to see if the path is the same. One of the mistakes I see in the field is that someone has torqued the prop on and gone straight to the top torque. Just like a helicopter main rotor head, when you start torquing things... take it slow.... real slow. The heat makes things swell and you can warp things or get a false torque. Torque it slowly. Now that you have the prop on correctly and it tracks correctly, we can go to the balance task. We did the Track first because TRACK AFFECTS BALANCE BUT BALANCE DOES NOT AFFECT TRACK. Then we spin the item at it's (operational only!) RPM. The blades can weigh the same but the further the weight is on the outside of the blade vs the other one... the more it "weighs" when you spin it... so if you have a little more weight on the inside than the outside or vice versa on a particular blade, it will be out of balance at operational RPM. Once we take a measurement, we would usually take about 75% of what the machine said and add that to the hub. One of the common errors I see in the field is that people will add weigh to a prop but not very close to the blade path, they will add it to the spinner way in front of the disk. Now we have a force trying to bend the crank shaft... Weight time arm = moment.... a small amount of weight spinning fast makes a ton of difference.
Once the weight is added.... it should be a smooth ride if you got it right!

Best
Brian Wallis
 
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BADA BING!!!!

This prop balance thing is soooo much easier than balancing a helicopter.... We hooked up the accelerometer and the camera to the engine. We started out at 0.90 IPS and then through about 6 runs... got it ALL THE WAY DOWN TO 0.00 IPS!!!! Richard says he cannot feel any more hi freq vibration in the flight controls. It's like BUTTA....:) I don't see anywhere to put a data card. I can write down what I do and give it to you on a piece of paper... I saw a prop balance card printed from another manufacturer's machine and it was quite impressive. It was mapped and all the different freqs were noted as well as their amplitude. I don't have that capability as far as I know. This machine just gives me the degrees of where it is the heaviest and then how many IPS it reads. I'll do whatever I can to help you.
Best
Brian Wallis
 
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