DevDad

DevDad

Well Known Member
Sarah and I have been discussing the possibility of purchasing an airplane to fly right now, and taking our time with the project. Does anyone have any experience with this type of situation? I would like to find something in the $35-50K range, reasonable cruise speeds, and just an overall fun flier.

So, here's my question: For those of you who have purchased an airplane during or just before building your RV, what did you go for? Or, if you're an airplane ownership "pro", what's a good buy in that price range? 2 or 4 seats doesn't really matter, at this point.

Thanks!
Mike
 
For that kinda of money you can buy a flyable, early slow build, RV-6 / 6A, have a ball flying it for a few years, sell it and get your all of your money back.
 
Better to rent IMHO. Lots of issues get taken care of by someone else and you can concentrate on building. Little of the upkeep can be done by you $$$$$ compaired to what you can do with a plane you build.
 
Geico266 said:
For that kinda of money you can buy a flyable, early slow build, RV-6 / 6A, have a ball flying it for a few years, sell it and get your all of your money back.
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I had considered this. I had also thought about getting a -4, and flying it for awhile before I even start my project.

The other option would be something like a Grumman or similar. From what I've seen recently, you can get a pretty nice airplane for <$40K, such as this one. I'd imagine that it's relatively simple to get right around what you paid for a $35Kish airplane.

Thoughts?

Mike
 
rent is cool but

if you want to go and stay somewhere, the beach for instance plane on renting a minimum of 4 hrs a day.. and then only if its not already rented out.. the scheduling problems are a real pain... if i were gonna buy something for now it would be no less than a 172
 
L2

While I am building my 8A I own and fly a 1942 Taylorcraft L2. You really cannot go anywhere in it, and it cruises at 80mph. The L2 stands for "land in 2 hours" because it only has that much endurance with reserve. It sure is fun to fly though.

I belong to a flying club where I rent other airplanes for instrument instruction and travel.
 
Reasonable cruise speed, FUN, and seats don't matter...my FIRST choice if you're sticking with an 7A, would be a Grumman Lynx, Yankee/AA1/1A. Quick, fun, low fuel burn, two seats, and can be had for $25k or less.

AmericanAviationAA-1YankeeC-FPPY.JPG


:cool:

'Course...you could always learn to fly a tailwheel...:D
 
Grumman Cheetah

Mike,

I've got two sets of preview plans (-8, and -9), have practiced driving rivets with an A&P cousin's tools, read everything I can about experimentals in general and RVs in particular, read this and other builder sites every day, and save my money. I've had to face the reality, though, that it's just not the right time in my career yet to start building. I'm close though.

In the meantime, I just don't like renting flight school trainers. The kids are grown and out of the house. We're basically debt free (except for the house and a college loan for one of the kids). My wife has her own job and we have a financial arrangement that works great for both of us. She more than supports my flying habit. I'm very, very lucky -- never really thought I'd be at this point in my life.

So I found a partner and we bought a nice 1974 Grumman Cheetah for $52,000. It takes more money than I wish it did even with a partner, but it's worth it to have our own plane to fly. The Cheetah is fun to fly, economical to operate, and cheap to insure. I would have bought a used RV, but my partner wanted a certified plane and I couldn't find an RV partnership that worked. On good days, if I squint, I can make myself believe our Grumman is an RV. :)

Another benefit is that I've come to realize that for me, when I do start building, it has to be about the building and not about getting myself a plane to fly. So I figure that having the Grumman to scratch the flying itch will allow me to take my time and enjoy the build process.

David
 
Cherokee 140.

Cheap to buy, cheap to fly and maintain. Roomy and comfortable in the front two seats anyway... no rubbing shoulders necessary in the front seats. Rather quiet in the cabin too compared to other small aircraft, sound insulation is above average. Rear seats are only ok for kids or baggage, or the occasional 3rd adult sitting crossways ;-). The heater is powerful and will keep you toasty warm in the winter.

Easy forgiving flying characteristics, maybe too easy. Some say a Cherokee will dull your stick & rudder chops. I probably have to agree somewhat with that, but a Cherokee makes child's play out of gusty crosswind landings. Having 5+ hours worth of fuel capacity on board is great too, and (don't laugh too hard all you RV owners) cruising at 125-135 mph ain't all *that bad* :eek:
Especially with tunes from a portable music player piped thru my new PM3000 stereo intercom system.

I've actually owned mine twice. Sold it to pay off some credit card debt and planned on starting to build an RV-7. Bought it back with new paint and interior after the fellow I sold it to perished in a tragic crash of another aircraft. Thinking of selling it again so I can afford to resume my dream of building a -7 but am unsure I want to be without a plane right now.
 
mean time,,,

BUY a C 172 that you hope not to lose $ on when you sell.
 
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Cherokee 180, Cessna 177, Grumman AA5, '64 or later Mooney for four seaters

AA1B or later, RV-4 for two seaters.
 
Geico266 said:
For that kinda of money you can buy a flyable, early slow build, RV-6 / 6A, have a ball flying it for a few years, sell it and get your all of your money back.
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I agree with others that a 4 might be a good temporary airplane. However, I can't recall ever seeing a flying 6/ 6A in this price range. There was one advertised recently for about $69K and the response was, wow what a bargain.
 
I owned a Piper Archer II

I owned a Piper Archer II that I flew to work every day in LA. It was an outstanding airplane that I flew all over the country and Canada and Mexico but if I did not own it and use it as I did I would have rented and not flown very much during the build process. I built the plane to keep my costs down after retirement but it costs a lot to build one and maintain another one. I sold my Archer for for ~$50,000 after buying it for $52,000 and flying it for 22 years. I agree with the 172 recommendation if you feel you have to buy one.

Bob Axsom
 
DevDad said:
I had also thought about getting a -4, and flying it for awhile before I even start my project.

The other option would be something like a Grumman or similar.
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What is the mission?

The RV-4 and the Grumman AA5 you linked to are very, very different types of aircraft. The fact that you are considering both suggests you haven't really figured out what type of flying you want to do.

Before you drop a bunch of cash on an aircraft, you should do a bit of self-introspection and discern what exactly you hope to achieve with this aircraft. Then it should be much clearer which aircraft types are suitable.
 
Piper Warrior

I had a piper warrior. My advice. Don't do it. Even being newer (1985) I spent a ton of money over 3 years just in annuals alone. My cheapest annual was $2800. It also took time to sell. Rent or buy what you want. I bought a -6A. Its an older one, but nice and it was $55k.
 
I owned a straight tail 172 for 8 years and it was a great airplane, just slow. Maintenance costs were very low as was insurance. I sold it for $8,000 more than I paid if you don't figure the money I spent fixing it up which wasn't a lot. The Yankee AA1-B is fun to fly but two seats. A 150 HP version is a good airplane. I would stay away from anything with bladder fuel tanks if you want to fly cheap.
JMHO!
 
Whatever you do don't get a Kitfox

Because that's what I've been looking for to fly while I build my 4. Oh wait, you're in Florida. Nevermind. But just remember I've got dibs on any 4-stroke Kitfox-4's that show up in Texas!

A Kitfox is about as fast as my Cherokee was and a lot cheaper to keep -- you can trailer it home and do your own maintenance. And it only burns about 5 gph.

After owning an experimental, I can't imagine ever flying certified again. Who wants to maintain a 30-year-old antique?
 
sprucemoose said:
I agree with others that a 4 might be a good temporary airplane. However, I can't recall ever seeing a flying 6/ 6A in this price range.
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There have been several bought and sold in the $38 -$50K range. You just have to know where to look.
 
I bought an RV-6A, and have had a ball flying for the last 5 years!! That's the problem, you spend more time flying/maintaining/upgrading your I'll-just-get-something-while-I-build-the-RV airplane that progress on the 'main' project slows down. A 172 might not be a bad choice either - I would suggest something that is easy to sell when you need the money to finish off the RV-7.

Pete
 
Clubs/partnership

One other consideration you may want to explore is a partnership or joining a flying club. This would reduce your expenses, not have a minimum number of hours for an overnight trip, and probably have better availability than a rental.
 
I bought a beautiful, well built Starduster Too. I'm building a RV8 and I wanted to maintain good tailwheel habits while building. The Starduster is a crowd pleaser everywhere I go and it is a very fun airplane to fly. It cruises around 130 mph and burns about 10.5 gallons per hour in cruise. I do some simple aerobatics in it everytime I fly it, plus........there's just something about a biplane. You can find a well built one that is well equipped for around $35,000.00. I limit my time to fly it so I won't neglect building the RV8, but it sure is nice to have it around when I get tired of building and want to fly for a minute or two.
 
Cessna 140

Half way through building my RV-6A I bought a Cessna 140. Very fun to fly and different than my RV. I get all the tail wheel experience and can land on any field. 140s go for for about $20K. I still have it but I am working on restoring it now that the RV is airborne.
 
How about a used RV? It's a great way to get a jump-start on learning to fly and maintain em. Find a good RV A&P or IA to do the pre-buy and your condition checks, and stay glued to him the entire time he is doing his thing...
 
Mission, mission, mission...

Think about what your mission is before you buy. Like Philip, I had a simple 2 seat fun flier (1941 T-Craft BC-12/65) and loved it! What a blast, $350 annuals, $600/yr insurance, 4 GPH fuel burns, etc.

Only one problem with it. At 95 MPH you aren't going far and there isn't a lot of baggage or shoulder room.

However, there was nothing like getting up at the crack of dawn and going for a flight just as the sun was coming up.

If you are looking for a traveling machine, that isn't going to do it for you. A 172 is always a safe bet but if you bought a PA-28-160 or -180 you could always move the engine over to your project and part the thing out. You might make more money on it that way.
 
good in the meantime airplanes

Check out the Grumman line of planes. Fun to fly and an active owners group.
 
Good idea...

Bought a four to fly while I decide which plane to build. Glad I did. I no longer consider building the seven as side by side just wouldn't do it for me. (Fly mostly solo) I can buy another Mooney if I need that. So basically, it has saved me from building what would have been the wrong plane for me. Also, as a huge side benefit, the local RV guys are graciously teaching me everything I need to know about how to maintain the four, and all instruction is hands on my own plane! ;-)
I've wanted to build a plane since I was a kid, but have never started because I was intimidated by it. Always waiting "for the right time" Now with this four in the hanger, I can go look at it and "see" how to do it. Plus, guys are coming out of the woodwork in the local area who are either building or contemplating building, or just want to sell their spam cans and get one of these things too. Just about every ride I've given has resulted in another "Trade a Plane" ad. ;-)
But then, I'm now looking at super RV-3's and rockets as the "target" airplane. But while I sort it out, I'm flying every day that I'm home, (and the weather lets me) and developing a realistic idea of what I want. Plus meeting a ton of really great people. That is a huge "upside" that I never saw coming and didn't plan for, but in the end will probably be the best part of this whole journey.
Good luck,
 
brayski98 said:
I had a piper warrior.
...
My cheapest annual was $2800.
Click to expand...

Wow! You either bought the wrong Warrior or took it to the wrong places for annuals. A typical annual on my '66 Cherokee 140 averages about $600 parts, consumables and labor excluding the costs of any upgrades I do at annual time. Insurance is only about $650/yr too.

My 140 cost ~$30K when I bought it back and had brand new paint and interior, and the engine is still under mid-time (870 smoh). Several decent ones are on barnstormers right now for upper twenties to lower thirties, but if I were in the market to buy a spamcan today, I'd have to look at that Grumman AA5 Traveller in DevDad's link on page 1 of this thread for $32K located in Galveston TX. I've always been infatuated with the Grumman AA5 series for some reason, probably because of the sliding canopy :cool:
 
Dennis Madden said:
...Now with this four in the hanger, I can go look at it and "see" how to do it. Plus, guys are coming out of the woodwork in the local area who are either building or contemplating building, or just want to sell their spam cans and get one of these things too. Just about every ride I've given has resulted in another "Trade a Plane" ad. ;-)...
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's a win-win for everyone, because there are a lot of good RV's available for sale and the increased demand for used RV's will help hold the value of these planes up when it comes time to sell. Buying a used RV is good for the community.

But then, I'm now looking at super RV-3's and rockets as the "target" airplane. But while I sort it out, I'm flying every day that I'm home, (and the weather lets me) and developing a realistic idea of what I want. Plus meeting a ton of really great people. That is a huge "upside" that I never saw coming and didn't plan for, but in the end will probably be the best part of this whole journey.
Good luck,
Click to expand...

This has also been my experience.
 
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Neal@F14 said:
Wow! You either bought the wrong Warrior or took it to the wrong places for annuals. A typical annual on my '66 Cherokee 140 averages about $600 parts, consumables and labor excluding the costs of any upgrades I do at annual time. Insurance is only about $650/yr too.
l:
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I did a prepurchase on the Warrior it came out fine. But major overhaul on the engine the first annual. 2nd annual had some issues on brakes and eletric trim. Then last year I had another issue with the engine again. Insurance was $995. Then during sale, the buyer did a prepurchase and found cracks in the wings, so $5k later...

But I am real happy with my -6A. And it was same price as I sold warrior.
 
I own a kitfox and love it. low cost to fly. In my opinion if you can fly a kitfox you can fly anything. I flew a maule and was told it couldn't do a few things, well I showed the guy you can do those few things. I flew an rv8 and had no problems. I love my kitfox.
 
Thanks for all of the responses! Regarding my mission, I don't really have one, to be honest. Would I be happy with an airplane that I can just go stroll around my local area with? Certainly. If I could get something that is fun to fly, *and* could be used for a little bit of travel, would I go that route? Definitely. I think a little 2+2 seater (meaning, two adults plus the kid and a little bit of baggage would be ideal.

Anyone want to partner up on the airplane I posted earlier, or looking for something similar? I'm in Tampa Bay, FL., and might consider that as an option.

Mike
 
Do consider how much you will fly

Many people fly so little that owning a plane may not make sense financially. My view is that flying is in a decline so would you be able to sell the plane in 2-4 years?

A year to year partnership with someone who rarely flies may make more sense. Added insurance for another pilot may not be huge and his costs would be lowered.
 
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Every thing I own has this premise. I buy it without the thought of resale, that means that I buy it and use the heck out of it and use it with the thought that I will not be able to sell it.
 
I agree....

Jaypratt said:
BUY a C 172 that you hope not to lose $ on when you sell.
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I bought my C172 before I decided to build. I was flying more then 100 hours a hear and having lots of fun. The plane is easy to fly (lower insurance) and can do some xcountry traveling.

When I started building my flight time dropped and in the last year of building I was down to less then 50 hours per year.

To cut my cost of owning a plane, I found a couple of guys that wanted to fly regularly and sold blocks of time on my plane to them. They got to fly for about $20.00 per hour less then the FBO was charging and my cost of owner ship was cut by a lot.

Kent

PS. I have my C172 for sale.

http://www.web-ster.com/byerley/N7090G.htm
 
Horse of another color...

If you just want something to have fun and stay sharp, you can buy a single-place ultralight cheap as dirt right now. I'm talking $6K for good machines. An odd side effect of of the Sport Pilot rule was to drive ultralight and near ultralight prices down. Some are perfectly legal Part 103 machines. Some are slightly heavy single place machines without N-numbers. If you operate somewhere without radical, ahhh, oversight, they fall into the "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" category. Less than $15K will buy nice 2-place machines licensed EXP or ELSA. Two place machines with no N-number will soon be scrap only, so pass on them.

Nothing better than a Maxair Drifter on a warm summer evening.
 
DanH said:
a single-place ultralight cheap as dirt right now. I'm talking $6K for good machines.
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There never seem to be too many of these listed in the traditional places, like trade-a-plane. Is there someplace with a large listing of ultralights in the classifieds?
 
Why not rent

I own an RV6A. While building I would rent, probably cheaper. You pay as you go. No annuals, no insurance, no maintenance, no hanger fees and you won't have to sell when you complete your plane.

I love my RV but building and owning and all that plane ownership implies ,costs more money and time then most people realize.

Chris
RV6-A
N613LE
 
My mean-time plane is a -4. What a blast. 50k and won't lose much?? value in the next 5 years while I build the -8. They sell very fast in this price range so it'll be easy to pull my equity out for the 8's panel.

Big benefit is cheap spead for x-ctry and building my logged TW and RV time so high hull$$$$$ -8 won't kill me 1st year in insurance.

Get an RV

It'll be less than half as old as the certified planes in this price range and cheaper to maintain on average. Insurance 1st year is high for me since I had zero TW time when I bought. That's my only down side to report but think how bad it'd be in the -7 or -8 at twice the hull if I didn't start with the -4.
 
My suggestion is to forget about a T-craft or similar plane. My interstate is fun, cheap, flies a lot like a T-craft, maybe better, but it is not a good plane for someone who hasn't flown much with more sophisticated aircraft. No flaps, no electrical system, no transponder, handheld radios need batteries (or charging) all the time which I don't always remember, so few visits to airports with towers & only about 2 hrs. before time to start looking for fuel. What are you going to do with an RV? Probably fly farther, longer, go to fields with towers, use flaps, etc.

If you are looking for cheap flying to putz around the local area and maintain currency, look at a C-150. You get all the stuff the RV has except for the handling, speed & range.

But having an airplane detracts from my building. Am in the process of replacing a cylinder and even though it was beautifully restored in '91, I found corrosion on the baffles, so I made 2 new baffles, cleaned up 3 more, painted them, etc. There's always something...And I will sell it in a year or so, so I can buy an engine.

Richard Scott
RV-9A Fuselage
 
Grumman AA1B-150

I found a Grumman 2 seater with an O-320 as a "Good in the MeanTime" airplane. The O-320 adds $5K according to AOPA's vref and is well worth it. They are in the $25K to $35K class.

Pros:
RV6A ground handling.
Auto Gas.
WOT @ 8,000 is 125Kts - GPS average.
Climb is 800 fpm at 5,000 - I never fly at sea level.
Ceiling is 16,800 (personal experience)

Cons:
Yoke - a stick would be really nice.
Small payload - 340lbs with full fuel.
Short range - 2 hours + reserve. "5 gallons short of wherever you want to go".
No Spins - Certified in the Utility class but spin recovery is questionable.

If you can find one with an O-320 and aux tanks, it would be even better.
 
Varga Kachina?

I think that it is priced a little bit out of the "In the Meantime" range at $40 - $50K... But I've always been curious about this little aircraft since the 70's when they started building them again. I've always liked tandems (wish the RV-12 was!) and think it would fun to have until you could get your -8A done.

Anybody have any experience/pirep on this bird?

DJ
 
I have a friend with a Grumman for sale for $24K. It has a mid time engine with 24 hours on new cylinders due to previous high oil consumption.

Bryan
 
Varga

Phyrcooler said:
I think that it is priced a little bit out of the "In the Meantime" range at $40 - $50K... But I've always been curious about this little aircraft since the 70's when they started building them again. I've always liked tandems (wish the RV-12 was!) and think it would fun to have until you could get your -8A done.

Anybody have any experience/pirep on this bird?

DJ
Click to expand...

I flew a neighbor's one (a 1976 one with a Bi-Centennial paint job) about 6 months ago.... he had a badly sprained wrist, so he sat in the back and let me do the whole flight...yeah...:D

Seating and visibility were good, and having a stick was good. It was very easy to fly, even performing the first landing on my own - I have about 400 hrs power, with 200 in the last 5 years, mostly in the Tiger, and about 1000 glider hrs.

It felt like an easy to fly, low wing Cessna 172 - solid flying and not too sensitive on the controls - it just did exactly what you wanted it to. Landing was a non-event.

It was not very fast, and I definitely prefer the much lighter controls on my Tiger...:)

It looked quite solidly built, and fairly simple, so maintenance should be somewhat reasonable by certified standards...

gil A - not a test pilot...:)
 
you have a kid.

Get a solid C 172, Fly the heck out of it. You need the experience. Start your RV build when you can.

Want fun in the mean time?????????
Get a Cessna C120 or C140. You will be great tail wheel pilot after 200 or so hours if you will push your self to learn. And a tail wheel RV is easier to build, if you choose..
 
I've got several hundred hours teaching in (and getting 100 dollar hamburgers in with my wife when I wasn't teaching in) the AA-5B/AG-5B Tigers by Grumman and American General - 180 HP engines. In short, I absolutely love the aircraft.

The 180 HP option is a must for this 4 seater unless you live at sea level. I flew it at 5300 feet MSL and it handled the DA quite well.

The handling is crisp, the sliding canopy makes a nice, cool taxi out in the summer and the airplane flies on the wing, meaning it flies like a much more performance oriented airplane versus the beloved but mushy feeling C-172.

IMHO the only downside of it is the fact you can't do aerobatics in it and the yoke would be better replaced by a stick given the handling feel. I've never flown the AA-1 but by the look of it I bet it would be a lot of fun, maybe just a little more squirrelly but that isn't necessarily a bad thing if you like to "fly". Of course some of these airframes are getting old, cheap annuals depend on a lot in an older airplane, buyer beware.

From what I hear from friends with tail wheel Cessnas, they are a great option too, relatively inexpensive, mechanically simple, loads of fun, etc. A little different type of flying than the AA-1/5 maybe. Different isn't bad. It adds to your bag of pilot tricks we all call on occasionally, especially if you intend to fly a tail wheel RV.
 
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Bonanza

I have a 1956 Bonanza G35 model with hydraulic constant speed propeller which I have owned for about 3-4 years. To my way of thinking, an old Bonanza is about the best combination of speed, performance and value you can find. Yes, you will spend a fair amount on maintenance, but you can get an old Bonanza fairly cheaply. I'm selling mine, but only because I'm close enough to finishing my RV8 tht it is about time for me to sell.
 
Tail wheel time?

Do you have any tail wheel time at all? You mentioned that you are building an "8". If so you will need to learn to fly tail wheel planes and get an endorsement pior to finishing your plane. You could buy an early model Cessna 170 get the endorsement, have a ball and be better prepared when it comes time to fly the RV.

I am flying a C 140 for these reasons. Just had a great season of flying on skis.

Steve
 
hands down...

Hands Down Gentleman..... the answer is a Grumman Yankee... AA-1A. It's handling is crisp and smooth... poetry in the right hands... not like trying to drive an oil barge around the sky like a 172... 110 mph or 125mph with wheel pants and 7 gal an hour... I bought mine for 19K.... I fly it a ton, put a 396 in the dash and I go from Atlanta to Louisville, KY in less than 3 hrs. 2 seats and some baggage room make for a perfect day trip airplane. No nosewheel linkages makes for super tight turns on the main wheel. Super responsive on the flying... it's an rv-6a with a taller canopy and a 108 hp engine....
I'll give you a ride if your in Atlanta, Ga...
Best
Brian Wallis
404-405-1315
 
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