cjensen

Well Known Member
I'm not posting this because I believe it, though I would like to, but I found it interesting as I read it on one of the car forums I'm on...



Why oil prices will tank
Arguments that $4-a-gallon gas (or even higher) is here to stay are dead wrong. Housing's boom-and-bust cycle tells you why.
By Shawn Tully, editor at large

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- High-flying tech stocks crashed. The roaring housing market crumbled. And oil, rest assured, will follow the same path down.

Not everyone agrees. In an echo of our most recent market frenzies, some experts pronounce that the "world has changed," and that the demand spikes, supply disruptions, and government bungling we face now will saddle us with a future of $4, $5 or even $10 a gallon gasoline.

But if you stick to basic economics, it's clear that the only question is when - not if - prices will succumb.

The oil bulls are correct in their explanations of why prices have jumped. It's indisputable that worldwide demand has surged, chiefly driven by strong growth in China, India and the Middle East. It's also true that most of the world's reserves are controlled by governments in places like Russia and Venezuela that mismanage production, thus curtailing supply growth.

But rather than forming a permanent new plateau for prices - as the bulls contend - those forces are causing a classically unstable market that's destined for a steep fall.

In a normal oil market, the cost of producing the last, most expensive barrel of oil needed to satisfy worldwide demand sets the price for every barrel the world over. Other auction commodity markets work much the same way.

So even if Saudi Arabia produces at $4 a barrel, if the final, multi-millionth barrel required to heat houses and run cars costs $50, and is produced, for argument's sake, at a flagging field in West Texas, the world price is $50. That's what economists call the equilibrium price: It's where the price that customers are willing to pay meets the production cost, including a cushion, naturally, for profit or "the cost of capital."

But today, the sudden surge in demand and the production bottlenecks have thrown the market radically out of balance.

Almost exactly the same thing happened in the housing market. And both housing and oil supply react to a surge in demand with a long lag. In housing, the lag is caused by restrictive zoning and development laws, especially in coastal markets like California and Florida.

So when the economy roared back in 2002 and 2003, builders couldn't turn out homes fast enough for buyers armed with those cheap mortgages. As a result, prices spiked. They no longer bore any relation to the actual cost of buying and improving land, or constructing and marketing a new house (at some reasonable profit margin). Instead, frenzied buyers were setting the price.

Because builders were reaping huge windfall profits, they rushed to buy and develop land. And sure enough, those new houses were ready just as buyers were retreating to the sidelines because they could no longer afford to buy a home. That vast overhang of unsold homes is what's driving down prices today.

The story is much the same with oil, with a twist. A big swath of the market isn't really paying that $125 a barrel number you hear about seemingly every hour. In China, India and the Middle East, governments are heavily subsidizing oil for their consumers and corporations, leading to rampant over-consumption - and driving up prices even more.

But sooner or later the world won't keep paying those prices: Eventually, the price must fall back to the cost of that last barrel to clear the market.

So what does that barrel cost today? According to Stephen Brown, an economist at the Dallas Federal Reserve, that final barrel costs just $50 to produce. And when the price is $125, the incentive to pour out more oil, like homebuilders' incentive to build more two years ago, is irresistible.

It takes a while to develop new supplies of oil, but the signs of a surge are already in place. Shale oil costing around $70 a barrel is now being produced in the Dakotas. Tar sands are attracting investment in Canada, also at around $70. New technology could soon minimize the pollution caused by producing oil from our super-plentiful supplies of coal.

"History suggests that when there's this much money to be made, new supplies do get developed," says Brown.

That's just the supply side of the equation. Demand should start to decline as well, albeit gradually.

"Historically, the oil market has under-anticipated the amount of conservation brought on by high prices," says Brown. Sales of big cars are collapsing; Americans are cutting down on driving. The airlines are scaling back flights.

We've learned another important lesson from the housing market: The longer prices stay stratospheric, the worse the eventual crash - simply because the higher the prices and bigger the profit margins, the bigger the incentive to over-produce.

It's even possible that, a few years hence, we could see a sustained period of plentiful oil supplies and low prices, meaning $50 or below.

A similar scenario occurred following the price explosion in the 1970s and early 1980s. The price spike caused the world to cut back sharply on oil consumption. By the mid-80s, oil prices had fallen from almost $40 to around $15. They remained extremely low for two decades.

It's impossible to predict how the adjustment this time will take shape, just as it was in housing. There the surge in supply came in places the experts swore there was "no supply," and wouldn't be any. Builders found a way to extend vast tracts of homes into California's Inland Empire and Central Valley, and even build "in-fill" projects near the densely-populated coasts.

An earlier bubble is also instructive. In the early 1980s silver prices jumped from $10 to $50 on the theory that the world was facing a permanent shortage of silver. Suddenly ads appeared asking homeowners to bring their tea sets and jewelry to Holiday Inns for a big price. Silver supplies poured from seemingly nowhere, out of America's cupboards, of all places.

And so it will be with oil. We don't know where the new abundance will come from, from shale, or tar sands or coal or an OPEC desperate to regain market share. We just know that it will appear. With prices like these, it always does.
 
Thanks Chad. I'm hopeful this will come to pass, also.

Instead of thinking, "Isn't it a wonderful day to drive out to the airport" when I'm doing itI tend to think these days, "Wonder what this is costing me?"

Fingers crossed:).

b,
d
 
Last week I heard on the news that Toyota and Honda will each market a fuel cell vehicle next year in limited markets. Toyota's is supposed to go 500 miles per fill up and Honda's is supposed to get the equivalent of 68 mpg when fuel costs are factored in. If these reports are true (couldn't confirm thru Google this morning), it would be another factor in reducing oil prices over time.
 
Chad,
Thanks for posting the article. It makes some sense while not much else does these days.

There was a news item last evening, Missouri oil drilling permits are up 75%. There is oil in Missouri, one guy has been slow pumping for years. At $130, drilling companies will risk going after it. For sure that is happening quietly everywhere. Money always talks. Illinois also has lots of oil along with one of the worlds largest supplies of coal.

Certainly investors are speculating with oil futures and it could come tumbling down, but the one factor that may be playing more so is demand. There is no question China will be gulping more and more crude to keep their economy expanding. We may not be able to cut consumption enough to offset that demand.
 
Hmmm

While I generally agree with the premise, I don't agree that the examples presented are indicative of the current situation, but let's hope.

On the bright side: There's a 300 mile per GALLON :eek: hybrid being marketed for around $30k! (Is it just snake oil? :D )

http://www.aptera.com/

Sleek, sexy, almost "aircraft" like. Worth a peek! :rolleyes:
 
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As a geologist who used to work for a major oil company, I'd say that much of this article is correct. What many people don't realize is that there is a long delay between increased price and increased production, sometimes as much as 10 years. This is due to the need to explore and develop new fields. Meanwhile there is little excess "inventory" available to satisfy short term increases in demand. Even in established fields, significantly increasing production is usually not just a matter of opening a valve; it requires new development (requiring both time and money).

Higher prices have already brought about a boom in new exploration and development. Balancing this though is an increase in costs; for example I've recently heard that the price of steel is becoming a major limiting factor for some new projects in the Gulf of Mexico. Its generally true though that there's a lot more oil in the world at $100-200/bbl than there is at $20-30, a fact ignored by the "peak oil" adherents. We'll run out of money long before we'll run out of oil.

Its worth considering that there was not a person breathing in 1979 who predicted the oil price would be $10/bbl in 1986. On the other hand, predictions of shortage have been popping up with regularity since the 1920s (the U.S. Geological Survey predicted in 1921 that we had only about 20 years supply). As the famous quote goes, "Prediction is hard, especially about the future".
 
wish I was wrong, but....

I've been expecting this fuel price increase (tho perhaps not quite as sudden as it's been recently) for while, and I think it's only going to get worse. Lots of reasons, including perhaps manipulation by speculators, but what I've been foreseeing is big increases in worldwide demand. I've been telling people this for a few years now; think of all the pictures you've seen of India and China, with all those millions of people riding around on bicycles. Now picture them all driving cars they've bought with all the money we've been sending them. The increase in energy demand is worldwide, but IMHO the increase is more exponential in the world's 2 most populous countries, and I don't see things ever getting better.
 
Alan,

Why don't they just drill the concrete plug out of the wells that were capped back in the early 80's right here in the US. I went thru AIT in the Army with a guy that lived in Oklahoma City and previously worked on some of these wells. He said they came in a capped hundreds of wells back then resulting in him loosing his job.
 
Why don't they just drill the concrete plug out of the wells that were capped back in the early 80's right here in the US. I went thru AIT in the Army with a guy that lived in Oklahoma City and previously worked on some of these wells. He said they came in a capped hundreds of wells back then resulting in him loosing his job.

Good question. These were called "stripper wells"; they typically had low production rates (on the order of 10 bbls/day) but were also relatively cheap to keep in operation. However, when the big drop in oil price came in the mid 80s they became uneconomic and got plugged. A huge number of people in the industry lost their jobs back then (hundreds of thousands).

A lot of the current exploration activity in the onshore U.S. is aimed at relatively small targets (including redevelopment of old fields), that once again are economic. Mostly its not major companies doing this drilling, but many smaller operators. The only place anyone is looking for any really big prospects is the deep Gulf of Mexico. This is a big money game, with costs in the neighborhood of $100 million (for one well!). The deepest of these wells is 28,000 feet (including 7000 feet of water)!
 
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One of the problems with drilling in the Gulf is there is a shortage of offshore drilling rigs worldwide.
 
India and China?

If oil at $130+ is hurting the most affluent country on the planet, how are the billions of Indians and Chinese going to migrate from their bicycles to fossil fuel-burning transport?

That, and the fact that the governments (of India at least) are heavily subsidizing their oil consumption and potentially screwing their own economy over in the longer term.

A
 
The future change in the price of oil

For a long time (decades) the price of oil has been designed to go up. The owners of this oil ( many poloticians ) have done every thing they could to increase oil use. Because they make more MONEY. Places to live ( Subdivisons ) have been helped with funding to be a long way to work. Vehicle efficieciy Has not been funded. All forms of the heavy use of oil has been promoted.
The use of natural (green) energy has been stiffled. Did you know that energy can be produced any where with the earths heat. The major oil companies are ADVERTISING that they are helping. Did you know that a good fuel for all of todays engines can and has been made! This is not promoted because many people can not sell more oil.
The worlds people will continue to BUY and DEMAND oil products. So when some body says the price of oil will fall my reply is why? Do they want to make less money? Today's people get paid more when they publish a popular story. Does this MEAN that they are right?
So if you don't listen to people that get more money from oil (Politicians - Oil Company Prinipals - Magazines - and other people standing to MAKE money from oil you will need good ear muffs. But we need those any way to protect our ears.
So will LL100 go up or down? It all depends on the demand. History shows what will eventualy happen.
 
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Economics 101

For a long time (decades) the price of oil has been designed to go up. The owners of this oil ( many poloticians ) have done every thing they could to increase oil use. Because they make more MONEY.

Your point that people act in their own economic interest is exactly right. And it goes to the point of why oil prices will not remain at their current over-inflated levels.

The reason is simple Economics 101. With high oil prices, additional opportunities to supply oil or an alternative fuel become profitable, allowing someone else to act in their economic interest and pursue those alternatives. The incresed supply will inevitably produce a moderation in price levels.
 
I found the article grossly oversimplified and naive.

I agree that oil prices could fall a bit as it tends to be somewhat seasonal and linked to weather, but it wil not fall to the low prices we used to be accustomed to. The real price is probably in the $80/brl level.

Oil is expensive for three reasons- supply has peaked/is dropping and demand is increasing at record rates in the developing third world countries, far faster than conservation efforts will moderate.

The second reason is that oil has been connected to the dollar, and the value of the dollar has dropped to record lows thanks to congressional mismanagement and the roadblocks placed by the environmental lobby. I don't see that changing, especially if the democrats take over next year.

The third reason is mostly political, the largest petroleum supplies are located in the most unstable regions in the world and larglely owned by despotic fanatics. The unstable forces add some level of risk premium to the oil price when demand is inelastic.
 
Here is what I don't get...

How is it that oil companies are making record profits when the price of their primary raw material has increased so much?

I would expect that they would pass that cost on to their customers and their profits would remain about the same as they have always had. After all, that is the way it works in almost every industry I have ever worked in.

For some reason, when the cost of oil goes up, Oil Company profits goes up at the same time. For most companies this type of raw material increase would lower their profits, not raise them. In other words, I don't buy the argument that they are large companies, thus they make large profits, even though their percent profit compared to sales isn't that much.

One other thing, just wait until this winter's heating season kicks in. I suspect "the people" will really start protesting fuel prices then.
 
The second reason is that oil has been connected to the dollar, and the value of the dollar has dropped to record lows thanks to congressional mismanagement and the roadblocks placed by the environmental lobby. I don't see that changing, especially if the democrats take over next year.

I agree with most of your points here, including the rising cost of oil being tied to the declining US dollar, but I think it's a stretch to place blame for the declining dollar on the environmental lobby.

Like it or not, the biggest reason for the declining dollar has been the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are borrowing billions from Asia to pay for the wars and what we can't borrow we print out of thin air which creates "inflation". It's the tax nobody talks about. It taxes all of your tax sheltered or tax-deffered accounts (like your 401(k) for example). It's not getting any better. The cost of the wars is growing exponentially as we speak. Right now the cost in Iraq alone is $12 billion/month and growing. As "inflation" increases, so does the cost of the war itself, compounding the problem.

This isn't a political post in any way, only stating the facts here.
 
How is it that oil companies are making record profits when the price of their primary raw material has increased so much?

I would expect that they would pass that cost on to their customers and their profits would remain about the same as they have always had. After all, that is the way it works in almost every industry I have ever worked in.

For some reason, when the cost of oil goes up, Oil Company profits goes up at the same time. For most companies this type of raw material increase would lower their profits, not raise them. In other words, I don't buy the argument that they are large companies, thus they make large profits, even though their percent profit compared to sales isn't that much.

One other thing, just wait until this winter's heating season kicks in. I suspect "the people" will really start protesting fuel prices then.


You are ignoring a major factor, they don't JUST import oil to make our gasoline they also produce oil of their own. If Mobil was profitably producing 100 billion barrels of oil at $60 a barrel then imagine how much profit there is at $130 on that same 100 billion barrels. Yes they have to import oil to meet all the US demand and on that oil they only make money on the mark up from the refinery onward. But on the oi they produce they make money on the raw material too.

Or at least that's my understanding. Am I missing something?
 
...Like it or not, the biggest reason for the declining dollar has been the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are borrowing billions from Asia to pay for the wars and what we can't borrow we print out of thin air which creates "inflation". It's the tax nobody talks about. It taxes all of your tax sheltered or tax-deffered accounts (like your 401(k) for example). It's not getting any better. The cost of the wars is growing exponentially as we speak. Right now the cost in Iraq alone is $12 billion/month and growing. As "inflation" increases, so does the cost of the war itself, compounding the problem

This isn't a political post in any way, only stating the facts here.


The big reason that the dollar is falling is because of the liquididly crisis caused by the sub prime housing debacle. The hedge funds and large investment banks were heavily playing a very dangerous derivatives game through the reselling of mortgage backed securities. When it all blew up in their faces the Fed ('helicopter' Ben Bernanke) and the Treasury had to step in and run the printing presses 24/7 (create liquidity). We're talking about trillions of dollars in derivitives. It makes the cost of the Iraq war look like peanuts. Granted, the government spending money like a drunken sailor doesn't help much either.

Now those same hedge funds and banks are trying to recoup some of their MBS losses with leveraged oil futures and other commodities plays (with bailout money given to them by the fed, BTW). The CFTC has granted certain big players exemptions on commodity speculative position limits and this is driving oil futures prices up. Everyone is participating in this futures price runup, from the government central banks to the small investor (very easy to play the margin commodities futures game now...too easy). US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy crude oil futures contracts on the Nymex by having to pay only 6 percent of the value of the contract.

Take a look at the open positions on the Nymex oil futures market, they have gone up exponentially in the last 24 months.
 
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Does snooopy have an instrument rating?
No... Not required under current FAA flying hound rules. This is due to the airborne pup's superior low light visionary system, coupled with the extended version snout... through which he has the ability to see and smell out centers of aviation by following the smell of Jet-A to it's source. He obviously does have mid-air concerns due to a lack of ADS-B equipment in his flying doghouse... but overcomes that concern by unflapping an ear and listening for incoming enemy. At slow doghouse speeds (65% power) this is easily accomplished. On bright sunny VFR mornings his favorite activity is to link up and fly wingman to passing RV's. ;)

DJ
Fan of the Snoops!
BTW - the house was primed using rattle-cans. :D
 
The big reason that the dollar is falling is because of the liquididly crisis caused by the sub prime housing debacle. The hedge funds and large investment banks were heavily playing a very dangerous derivatives game through the reselling of mortgage backed securities. When it all blew up in their faces the Fed (helicopter Ben Bernake) and the Treasury had to step in step in and run the printing presses 24/7 (create liquidity). We're talking about trillions of dollars in derivitives. It makes the cost of the Iraq war look like peanuts. Granted, the government spending money like a drunken sailor doesn't help much either.

Now those same hedge funds and banks are trying to recoup some of their MBS losses with leveraged oil futures and other commodities plays (bailout money given to them by the fed, BTW). The CFTC has granted certain big players exemptions on commodity speculative position limits and this is driving oil futures prices up. Everyone is participating in this futures price runup, from the government central banks to the small investor (very easy to play the margin commodities futures game now...too easy). US margin rules of the government?s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy crude oil futures contracts on the Nymex, by having to pay only 6 percent of the value of the contract.

Take a look at the open positions on the Nymex oil futures market, they have gone up exponentially in the last 24 months.

No arguing with any of that, but this only explains the last couple of quarters. The dollar has been tanking against almost all major currencies since at least '05 Q4.
 
No arguing with any of that, but this only explains the last couple of quarters. The dollar has been tanking against almost all major currencies since at least '05 Q4.

Yeah, but the dollar really took a nose dive when the housing bubble burst, and not so coincidentally, oil futures prices started to spike up shortly after that, largely due to the falling dollar and the lack of places for 'the big money' to put their investments because of a languishing stock market. Limited investment diversification could spell big trouble down the road...

And if oil price bubble bursts, whoa, look out, some banks are probably going to fail.
 
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Prices will drop suddenly

Keep in mind that the largest oil producers in the world (OPEC) have been actively throttling the world supply for price manipulation. Demand has increased , but I think this China - India excuse is often over blown to distract you from the fact that production from the middle East was reduced to manipulate price that a few men in Texas were very happy to see.

US oil companies ( I think there is still more than one, but I have not seen the news this morning) do import much of this OPEC oil, but they also produce plenty of domestic oil. The domestic oil is only costing them about 20-25 dollars per barrel. Their raw material cost taken together is significantly below todays crazy futures market. Don't hold your breath waiting for Houston to sell you gas based on their true cost, but Hope is on the horizon.......

There is another industry that is almost as powerful as the oil industry in todays political environment and their strength will grow significantly after January 2009. The auto industry has been pummeled as bad as you and I in this big oil orgy. They have been steadily doing something about it to help insure oil producers will no longer be able to dictate the course of the automobile industry. Japan is releasing their consumer Hydrogen car in California as I type this. These are very powerful cars that do not burn any crude products. GM will release their first Hydrogen car based on their Skateboard concept in 2010. Big Oil has ultimately shot themselves in the foot. Their raping of the masses has forced other giants to put serious research into alternatives with "renewed energy". Within five to ten years, the face of motor transport will change to cheap hydrogen that can be produced with sunlight, wind, nuclear and coal sources. Being able to tell the Middle East to try and eat their oil is something I hope I live to see ;)

http://www.autointell.com/nao_companies/general_motors/gm-autonomy/gm-autonomy-02.htm

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20080616/D91B3UI81.html
 
Some excellent points made concerning the costs of the war and from losses in the housing market. Throw in the losses caused by 9/11 and the hurricanes as well. Nobody likes the idaa of war; I happen to believe that we are doing the correct and moral thing in Iraq/Afganistan, and probably soon in Iran as well- we are fighting abroad to keep that evil it all out of our own backyard, for right or wrong. Fanaticism is truly a horrible thing for everyone involved.

The cause of the falling dollar is moot to the argument about the high oil prices- it is a given. Gasoline costs in many foreign countries has not risen as fast as they have in the US, because of the weak dollar. We still get a pretty good deal- it costs us much less than them.

I believe the value of the dollar is falling because the treasury keeps printing to keep up with congressional spending, much of it the pork barrel variety to buy local votes and popularity. Non-productive spending is the problem!
 
OPEC output...

Keep in mind that the largest oil producers in the world (OPEC) have been actively throttling the world supply for price manipulation. Demand has increased , but I think this China - India excuse is often over blown to distract you from the fact that production from the middle East was reduced to manipulate price that a few men in Texas were very happy to see. ......

I'm not defending OPEC, but the figures do not seem to agree with your statement...

opecchart1.gif


March, April, May 2008 totals are in the 32,000 range.... and the OPEC 10 (now 12) are in the order of 29,000 for these months.

http://www.platts.com/Oil/Resources/News Features/opec/prod_table.xml

World supply-demand seems to be just about even, according to the EIA....

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/cfapps/STE...onth=1&endYear=2009&endMonth=12&tableNumber=6

gil A
 
What I see

Crude price manipulation is actually something OPEC readily admits. The chart does show a remarkably steady period of 2 % growth that happens right after we saved Kuwait's and Saudi Arabia's butts in the first Gulf War. The data also show when they took it off autopilot and put their hand on the throttle in 1998.

original.jpg
 
There is another industry that is almost as powerful as the oil industry in todays political environment and their strength will grow significantly after January 2009. The auto industry has been pummeled as bad as you and I in this big oil orgy. They have been steadily doing something about it to help insure oil producers will no longer be able to dictate the course of the automobile industry. Japan is releasing their consumer Hydrogen car in California as I type this. These are very powerful cars that do not burn any crude products. GM will release their first Hydrogen car based on their Skateboard concept in 2010. Big Oil has ultimately shot themselves in the foot. Their raping of the masses has forced other giants to put serious research into alternatives with "renewed energy". Within five to ten years, the face of motor transport will change to cheap hydrogen that can be produced with sunlight, wind, nuclear and coal sources. Being able to tell the Middle East to try and eat their oil is something I hope I live to see ;)


This will be the truth but I think it will be less than ten years before we see a substantial change in oil prices because of new technologies brought forth by private enterprise. Congress is screaming at the oil companys to develop other forms of energy. What a joke! Private enterprise is poised to make the next profits now with new energy sources. Greed is going to doom the oil industry.
 
Most of these problems are the fault of our own government, both the Republican administration and the Democratic Congress.

The falling dollar is not because of the liquidity crisis. As someone said, it started falling long before that. The weak dollar is the fault of our own government, specifically the Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Remember the low interest rates? Every time they lower rates, the dollar sinks and oil goes up. The government has not chosen to defend the dollar. A cheap dollar is good for exports so the administration thinks strong exports are good for the economy. Remember all the weeping and wailing about jobs going overseas? Keeping the dollar weak is a misguided attempt to keep jobs here and to lower the trade deficit. Not exactly working as we spend more on oil when the dollar goes down, but apparently the administration hasn't noticed that.

Congress once again voted to prohibit going after the trillion plus barrels of oil in the oil shale in western Colorado. Yes, trillion barrels--more that 3 times the reserves in Saudi Arabia. Environmental concerns. So instead of writing laws with strict environmental standards to allow going after the oil, they prohibit all action to get us off foreign oil, reduce gas prices, reduce the trade deficit, then turn around and put on a show blaming the oil companies. Trouble is, every time we have had a spike in oil prices, politicians have grandstanded trumpeted about how they will make the oil companies pay for their gouging, then investigated, then quietly said, "We couldn't seem to find any evidence of a crime." And then there's the continental shelf with billions of barrels of oil, but over 40 years ago we had a problem in the Santa Barbara Channel, so Congress thinks it will never be OK to drill for oil offshore, even though the rigs in the Gulf went thru Katrina without any major spills. What was that Mark Twain quote? Something like, "Suppose I were a member of Congress, and suppose I was an idiot. Oh, but I repeat myself."
 
Continue the red line...

Crude price manipulation is actually something OPEC readily admits. The chart does show a remarkably steady period of 2 % growth that happens right after we saved Kuwait's and Saudi Arabia's butts in the first Gulf War. The data also show when they took it off autopilot and put their hand on the throttle in 1998.

original.jpg

Maybe... but if you plot Mar 08 on the same graph at 32,000, it's back on your red trend line....

I thought we were talking about this years run up in prices.

Production world-wide is essentially in balance with present demand.

My vote is for fund speculation... Helped(or caused?) by the banking regulation changes in 2000.
 
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The article is pretty thin on real facts. No mention that the price increases of the 70's and 80's were due to embargoes and wars. And no real facts on why prices collapsed in the 80's - Iran and Iraq were funding their conflict by dumping oil and exceeding quotas. Saudi Arabia warned them for two years, and then opened the spigots and starved that conflict by dumping oil at $15/bl. And got a two-fer wiping out the US domestic oil industry to boot (my friends in TX still haven't figured that one out).

"The big reason that the dollar is falling is because of the liquididly crisis caused by the sub prime housing debacle."

The dollar has been falling for a long, long time. It's been propped up since this well-predicted fiasco finally came to fruition. But you are right that Wall Street is feasting on the unregulated energy futures market, while the gov't ignores it just like the Enron shenanigans.

The system is gamed, and it will take a lot longer to burst the bubble than Fortune thinks.
 
...."The big reason that the dollar is falling is because of the liquididly crisis caused by the sub prime housing debacle."

The dollar has been falling for a long, long time. It's been propped up since this well-predicted fiasco finally came to fruition. But you are right that Wall Street is feasting on the unregulated energy futures market, while the gov't ignores it just like the Enron shenanigans.

The system is gamed, and it will take a lot longer to burst the bubble than Fortune thinks.

You guys got me there. :) I have a bad habit of speaking in absolutes when it comes to these sorts of things. Change that quote to "One of the big reasons that the dollar is falling..."

No doubt the dollar has been in a severe slide since the beginning of 2002, but it was rallying from 11/04 to 11/05. Those of us who watch the markets closely knew there was trouble before 11/05 but it only started to show itself in earnest in the currency indexes when the Fed started to inject massive amounts of liquidity back into a badly managed banking system in Q3 of 06. The last twenty-four months or so has been a reversal back to a bad trend for the dollar (depending on who you ask) since the derivitives market started to unwind.

As most traders know, when the dollar goes one direction, commodities almost always go the other direction. And when only one or two trading sectors are working, everyone has a tendancy to pile onto those working sectors. Commodities are a dog pile right now (but they look technically toppy).

Funny how these OT discussions morph. It is easy to see how a discussion about the price of crude, a economic problem that is having a impact on our ability to RVate, can go in unintended directions.

For that reason I tried very hard to stay out of this discussion, but couldn't resist because the markets are how my wife and I make a portion of our income. The market discussions we have during the trading day and at the dinner table are enough as it is. Didn't need to add fuel to that fire by bringing it here...
 
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Moderator Moderating

Ladies and Gentlemen:
This has been an interesting thread, and I have learned a lot. There have been some enlightening points made. It always amazes me how talented and cross-cutting our RV community is with the different occupations, hobbies, experiences, reading interests, etc. we represent.

Now as one of your moderators I ask you to take a deep breath and ask yourself if we are really following Doug's rules for the forum, especially the one about contributing knowledge, ideas, experiences about RV aircraft building and flying.

Just a thought...

Deep breath...in...out...in...out. Now, isn't that better?

Have a great day!

Don
 
There may be some topical wandering, but I think anyone considering the economics of RV'ing needs to consider/assume the following:

The Bad:

- Gas isn't going to get much cheaper. Speculation patterns last for years and there are no expectations of improved political stability or access to new resources
- No major turn-around in the economy in the near-term
- RV's are going to be harder to sell.

The Good:

- It's a buyers market
- Mother is the necessity of invention, perhaps we'll see some revolutionary solutions (engines, LSA, etc)
- More airspace free, cheaper hanger space

I know and have read that many are changing their flying patterns, this 'hobby' is under stress. Any improvement will have to be due to internal factors, as external factors aren't going to help us. Certainly, vansairforce is a touchstone to helping that.
 
Oil Company Profits: Not what you think

How is it that oil companies are making record profits when the price of their primary raw material has increased so much?

Oil company profits are high based on the size of the company but not the percentage of the money invested. In other words, EXXON made a record 30 billion but the percentage is +-13%. Microsoft makes a profit over 25%, Intel makes over 20% profit. Drug companies make over 20% on capital, financial companies make 20-30%.

During the last run up in price, during the early 80's, Jimmy Carter tried to use regulations (remember old oil vs new oil) and put the government in the oil business all with diasterous results. Reagan came in and let the market forces act. I agree that the price will probably go down. Right now with the high price, politicians are using high prices to push their agenda's.

The statistic that bears out the situation in the US, we have 5-6% of the world's population and we use 25% of the oil. What I see is a tremendous effort to be more frugal and concientious. With that, the demand drops and the price will follow. And a high price encourages conservation which is a good thing.

Steve Anderson
RV 7A H-6
Lafayette La.
Waiting on the FAA
 
This is a great topic

We can put a twist on this to get it back to being RV related. As the oil prices increase, it makes us all feel sick that one day it just might be too expensive to go flying. Remember when the airplane was the most expensive thing about flying! I have since changed my mind as to how I will fly and what kind of gas I will use.
I am building a RV-6 and I am making the current mods to get the most out of my gas.
1. I am getting all of the speed mods I can to make the plane go fast. If I can get my 6 to go 230 at full power that means I can go 180 on about 6-7 gallons. MPG UP!!!
2. I am not going to increase my compression when I build my engine. I will try to get the most power by using all of the accessories I can like forward facing sump, ram air induction, 4 into 1 exhaust, ...ect. I will keep the compression at 8.5 to 1 so I can burn car gas.
3. All fuel components will be ethanol compatible. Let's face it, it will be all gas shortly.
4. I am increasing my fuel capacity to 48 gallons. Why do this? I want to carry more gas so I don't get hit at the high dollar pumps at fly in. I can fly round trip to most places with that kind of fuel on board. I can fill up a home cheaply and return home without refueling. It isn't that exspensive to make bigger tanks.
5. Avgas will be gone sometime in the near future. Might as well prepare for it now.
6. Buying good engine monitor and getting the fuel injection so I can run lean of peak. Randy Lervold has got some good info on this.

I don't like paying at the pump but this is good in a sense that it forces us to get off the oil at least when it comes to autos. Planes will always need oil and I am doing all I can to make sure I get the most MPG and still have fun doing it.
 
Why not increase compression? Its proven that it increases thermal efficiency, BSFC, and reduce fuel economy...

I agree with all your othr points though :)
 
Doom and Gloom Article on Why Prices Will Stay High

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

THe preceding link is a very detailed article on why the prices have stayed high. I view this as similar to a book written by Howard Ruff during the late 70's and early 80's. During this period we had high oil prices that brought on high inflation and unemployment. Howard Ruff advocated storing food in your house for the coming turmoil to come. It never got that bad (thank goodness) and this link is of similar ink.

Steve Anderson
RV 7A H-6
Lafayette, La.
 
The article is pretty thin on real facts.
The system is gamed, and it will take a lot longer to burst the bubble than Fortune thinks.

Hmmm......it's only been four months since this thread started and today oil is $69 and change. Just goes to show no one really knows.
 
I've been expecting this fuel price increase (tho perhaps not quite as sudden as it's been recently) for while, and I think it's only going to get worse. Lots of reasons, including perhaps manipulation by speculators, but what I've been foreseeing is big increases in worldwide demand. I've been telling people this for a few years now; think of all the pictures you've seen of India and China, with all those millions of people riding around on bicycles. Now picture them all driving cars they've bought with all the money we've been sending them. The increase in energy demand is worldwide, but IMHO the increase is more exponential in the world's 2 most populous countries, and I don't see things ever getting better.

As more of their population drive cars the governments will be forced to drop the subsidy, which will increase prices and lower demand.

Hans