K

komodo58

Member
Allo fellow pilots
I want to enter in the wonderfull word of IFR GPS WASS. At this time I have a basic IFR NAV/COM/ILS with DME and NDB. As time passing, there is more and more GPS route, less Victor airways and GPS LNAV/VNAV approch.
To get into it, I need GI106A GPS/NAV indicator and a good audio panel.
That bring me around 10k$ min and 20k$ and more ...without any autopilot.

I would like your opinion of others IFR pilots with GNS 480 that we can get for about 5k$ and the new GTN 560 for 10k$ for those who experience both.
At this time I am not interested into used GNS 430 or 530 as the price are very
close to the GTN 650.

Martin
 
The 480 is apparently a great box because all that have em seem to love them. They have a few features that not much if anything else have these days.

BUT

They are obsolete and have been for many years now. I would be worried about repairs in the future. Most of them that are out there on the used market most likely have a ton of hours on them. Something to consider.

You need to get a formal quote for the GTN650. Typically they go for less than the price you mentioned.

The GTN is also an amazing box. All new hardware and it will be around a long time.

Look at some of the EFIS systems out there that can interface with these units. Sometimes you can get a whole EFIS for close to the price of a stand alone CDI. Add in some of the built in auto pilot's and you got yourself a heck of a low priced solution there. (I see you are in Canada. I have no idea what the rules are up there about this)

Audio panels are great but not absolutely required in our small planes. A couple switches can suffice for those on a super tight budget. There are a couple experimental audio panels on the market that are great units at a reasonable price.
 
Modernize

The 400 series is going away. Even though support will be there. The GTN series can be had from much less than $10k. Check with Stein or Tim at Approach. Lots of resources.

I've got quite a bit of time flying touch screen units and they are very nice to use. Those who talk about use in turbulence just haven't used them. Heck, even dial stuff is tough in turbulence.

You might even consider the 750 with remote mounted audio panel and transponder. Ultimately saves panel space.

I went with the 750, SL40, and two Advanced Flight 5500 Touch screens for my new 7. The panel looks great, uncluttered and extremely functional.
 
Martin, Like almost all who have flown the 480 in hard IFR /busy airspace with a quick airplane, I have very few complaints. It's combination of simplicity and capability is very hard to beat. Between my RV8 and MU2 I fly both with 480s I can only think of a few minor complaints:

- No altitudes displayed on map for class bravo/charlie airspace (have to hit nearest, then airspace and know segment to get).
- Small screen
- No functionality for vnav/top of descent/alt restrictions.
- Electronic checklist entry cumbersome

With that said, I've had great support from the Oregon/old UPSAT folks.

While definately obsolete, I understand that one more(and final) major software update is in the works that will include full ads-b compliance and some new interface capabilites.

I am biased for sure and I only have a few dozen hours with a 530w, but I would not trade my 480 for the 530 without question.
 
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IFR FLYING gns 480 vs gtn 650

I've used the sim of both gns 480 & gtn 650/750.
GTN is great but it seam to me that both do the job for IFR flying.
Even the GNS has the capabiliy built an unpublish hold very easily but the GTN doesn't.
I have a certify airplane, so I am restrited to only garmin product with fit for all STC.
The other option will br to sell the plane and buy an RV6 with glass panel and auto pilot for a fraction of the price for a certify airplane.
 
Go the GTN. Keep the NAV/COM, I assume an SL30, and perhaps ditch the ADF and DME.

My 2c worth.
 
rv888r said:
... only think of a few minor complaints:

- No altitudes displayed on map for class bravo/charlie airspace (have to hit nearest, then airspace and know segment to get).
- Small screen
- No functionality for vnav/top of descent/alt restrictions.
- Electronic checklist entry cumbersome

With that said, I've had great support from the Oregon/old UPSAT folks.

While definately obsolete, I understand that one more(and final) major software update is in the works that will include full ads-b compliance and some new interface capabilites.

I am biased for sure and I only have a few dozen hours with a 530w, but I would not trade my 480 for the 530 without question.
Click to expand...

I love my 480 but I don't think I would buy one now (unless mine went TU and I needed a replacement).

As far as the minor complaints noted above, my 480 is used as my primary GPS input into my GRT EFIS. The combination addresses complaints 1,2 & 3. I also have a Garmin 795 which gives the electronic checklist but I rarely use it. I like paper checklists.

I sure hope the software update for ADSB comes soon. I recently installed a GDL 39R for ADSB In. I'll update my 330 to a 330ES as soon as the 480 software is available.
 
GTN 750

If you read the AIM 5-4-5 section k or so ,if memory serves, you will find that for LP, LPV, and LNAV operations "WAAS navigation equipment must be approved in accordance with the requirements specified in TSO-C145b or TSO-C146b and installed in accordance with Advisory Circular AC 20-138." The 430, 530, and 480 do not meet this criteria and have limited legal usefulness. The 430W/530W and all the GTN series are compliant. Garmin did not make the 480, UPS AT did, and they have not been providing software updates for sometime. On the ADS-B front Garmin has promised a software "patch" for the 430W/530W. I have not heard of any firm plans to offer anything for the 430, 530, or 480. Good luck, Russ
P.S If you have a 430 or 530, Garmin will upgrade it to a 430W or 530W for around $2900ish last I checked.
 
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AK4x4 said:
If you read the AIM 5-4-5 section k or so ,if memory serves, you will find that for LP, LPV, and LNAV operations "WAAS navigation equipment must be approved in accordance with the requirements specified in TSO-C145b or TSO-C146b and installed in accordance with Advisory Circular AC 20-138." The 430, 530, and 480 do not meet this criteria and have limited legal usefulness. The 430W/530W and all the GTN series are compliant. Garmin did not make the 480, UPS AT did, and they have not been providing software updates for sometime. On the ADS-B front Garmin has promised a software "patch" for the 430W/530W. I have not heard of any firm plans to offer anything for the 430, 530, or 480. Good luck, Russ
P.S If you have a 430 or 530, Garmin will upgrade it to a 430W or 530W for around $2900ish last I checked.
Click to expand...


From Garmin's site:
"GNS 480 additional features:
Certification: TSO C146a, Levels 1, 2, 3 (LPV)"


Garmin has already released an ADS-B update for the 430W/530W.

They have also stated that there will someday be an ADS-B update for the 480.
 
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AK4x4 said:
If you read the AIM 5-4-5 section k or so ,if memory serves, you will find that for LP, LPV, and LNAV operations "WAAS navigation equipment must be approved in accordance with the requirements specified in TSO-C145b or TSO-C146b and installed in accordance with Advisory Circular AC 20-138." The 430, 530, and 480 do not meet this criteria and have limited legal usefulness. The 430W/530W and all the GTN series are compliant. Garmin did not make the 480, UPS AT did, and they have not been providing software updates for sometime. On the ADS-B front Garmin has promised a software "patch" for the 430W/530W. I have not heard of any firm plans to offer anything for the 430, 530, or 480. Good luck, Russ
P.S If you have a 430 or 530, Garmin will upgrade it to a 430W or 530W for around $2900ish last I checked.
Click to expand...

The non-waas units are covered in the aim subsection just before the one you quoted. To say they are of limited legal use is an opinion. They cannot do precision (LPV) or LP approaches; nor can they meet the tso for adsb out. They can do LNAV approaches.
The 480 cannot do LP approaches.
 
480

Yes the 480 was the first, hence the problem, the TSO has been revised to 146b the unit is a 146a and the aim is requiring 146b. I operate 2 one an Apollo CNX80 and the other a Garmin GNS480. Garmin has been saying a software update will be coming to allow controlling of the remote transponder and my GDL90 but after y e a r s its vaporware so I am not very optimistic reguarding the ADS-B update but call Garmin tech and ask. Good luck, Russ
 
AK4x4 said:
Yes the 480 was the first, hence the problem, the TSO has been revised to 146b the unit is a 146a and the aim is requiring 146b. ss
Click to expand...

You need a lawyer to read the aim sometimes.
The aim (and the TSO) requires 146b to use the GPS for LP approaches. These are non-precision, similar to localizer (no glide slope) approaches.
146a boxes can still do LPV approaches.
129 boxes can still do LNAV approaches (with 'supplemental' nav equipment on board).

As mentioned at the beginng of the thread, I agree that one can expect service (hardware and software) to become increasingly difficult-these are old boxes.
 
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Also keep in mind that while the AIM sometimes uses language that goes hand in hand with the FAR's, the AIM is not regulatory, the FAR's yes the AIM no.

Now that being said, there is a bunch of the stuff in the AIM that is in your best interest to follow.

At least that is my understanding but I have been misinformed before.
 
Brantel said:
Also keep in mind that while the AIM sometimes uses language that goes hand in hand with the FAR's, the AIM is not regulatory, the FAR's yes the AIM no.
Click to expand...

This is generally true, but with some exceptions - one of which is IFR use of GPS.
91.205 requires "suitable" nav equipment. Now, believe it or not, 14CFR 1.1 ("definitions") defines the word suitable, as applied to RNAV including GPS. It says suitable is what the FAA says it is, in its various non-regulatory publications! e.g., It makes the TSO, A/C, AIM, etc. regulatory for ifr gps. I believe the phrase is "regulatory by reference".This isn't the only example. CFII's are required to follow the guidance in the IFR Practical Test guide when giving instrument proficiency checks, even though the PTS is technically an advisory circular. We have to do it because the FARs say we have to follow the (normally non-regulatory) PTS.
 
GNS-480 does indeed support LP approaches

BobTurner said:
...The 480 cannot do LP approaches.
Click to expand...

I believe your comment only applies to GNS-480/CNX80 units that have software version 2.1. If you have v2.3, all is good.

From a Jeppesen bulletin dated 01 Feb 2013: http://ww1.jeppesen.com/news/notices-alerts/aviation/navdata-notice/Garmin_GNS480_SA1308.jsp

DESCRIPTION
The latest Aviation Database (1302) includes LP* approaches for the first time. While GNS 480 (CNX 80) Software Version 2.3 supports LP approaches, Software Version 2.1 does not.

For customers with Software Version 2.1, LP approaches will appear as LPV approaches and will be selectable. If selected, the unit will annunciate ?LPV? in amber while on the approach; however, one minute out from the FAF the approach will downgrade to LNAV.​
 
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