[eric_marsh]

I'm still working towards my private pilot's certificate. As part of my instruction I've done the normal amount of gliding, dead stick landings and so forth. What I've found is that I really like unpowered flight. It's somewhat more challenging, but also just fun.

Is anyone here a glider pilot? I'm thinking of trying my hand at it to improve my skills, possibly cut my flying costs and to see if I might just enjoy it.

Eric

 

[mgomez]

It's fun, but not much cheaper

I just got my glider rating a year or so ago, after 1100 hrs in airplanes. I really enjoy the challenge of soaring, and once I manage to gain altitude above my release point, I was hooked. I have earned my Bronze Badge, and I'm looking forward this year to getting my CFI-G and going X-C, which in a glider means flying beyond gliding range of the airport. In other words, it means you either find lift or land in a farmer's field

I feel it has made me a better airplane pilot and I am learning a lot about the atmosphere. Also, being an aeronautical engineer, soaring has taught me a bit about aerodynamics that I previously had the luxury of ignoring.

However, it'll be a long time before it's actually cheaper on a dollars/hour basis.

A tow to 3000' costs $32 at my club. Our cheapest glider is $15/hr. The most expensive is $39/hr. So if you stay up for 20 minutes, which is a typical "can't find any lift" ride, it's about $50 in an expensive glider or $37 in a cheap one. That's $111 to $150/hr...which is comparable to renting and airplane at an FBO.

If you learn how to exploit atmospheric lift, and fly only on good days (i.e. days in which you can expect to find thermal, ridge, or wave lift) then you can stay up for a long time, and the cost of the tow vanishes. For example, I've had a few two-hr flights. In our cheapest glider, that cost me $62...for two hours.

During training though, you can expect lots of short hops at a high hourly rate because you're not amortizing the tow over enough flying time.

 

[Bob Kuykendall]

I am a glider pilot, and I'm developing a high-performance kit sailplane that is all composite and gives the European racers a run for the money, but requires no more composites skill than is required to install an RV-8 windshield.

In my experience, the dollars-per-hour cost of soaring doesn't start beating powered flight until you start getting into cross-country flying. Joining a glider club can bring the cost down a bunch, but then you have to schedule around club activities. It's all a trade-off, of course.

That said, I've long felt that cross-country and competition soaring gives good value in terms of dollars per unit exhilaration, whatever those units might be.

Thanks, Bob K.

 

[steve91t]

I started working at a glider club when I was 13. Solo'd at 14, and kept going from there. When I finally went to college at 19, I had was not only giving rides, but also towing in one of their 3 Piper Pawnees. I can honestly say that experience has made me a better pilot.

I hope someday soon to be able to get back into gliders and also do some towing. Some of the mos flying I've ever done.

Steve

 

[n5lp]

Challenging

Some have pointed out that gliding can be expensive and that is very true. Under some circumstances it can be inexpensive.

My experience is almost entirely with ground launching and that makes a big difference. A lot of my launches were on a home-made club winch and those tows were about $3 a piece at the time. My other tows were mostly using my personal vehicle and a 1,500 foot rope. It can be very satisfying to burn a few ounces of fuel in your Ford Taurus station wagon and fly for many hours and hundreds of miles. I would estimate my percentage of being able to fly away from a car launch at around 90 percent.

In my club, Schweizer 1-26s rented for $6 an hour. Later I purchased a 1-26 of my own for about $7,000 and flew it for many years. and then sold it for about the same amount. Later I bought a used high performance glider (Mini-Nimbus C), flew it for years and sold it for more than I bought it for. The only glider I lost some money on was the One Design Class PW-5 that never really caught on in this country.

So you see, it cost me about nothing, but it was a special situation of a large abandoned airport at a small town and people that didn't have to have the latest and shiniest stuff.

Even the very modest Schweizer 1-26 is capable of a lot of good flying. I think my longest straight out cross country was about 380 miles and I had it up to about 30,000 feet. Lots of fun in a short wingspan tube and fabric very simple machine.

The most intense and challenging flying I have done, by far, has been in gliders. In a contest, you are constantly making decisions of all sorts. Course, speed to fly, where to go for lift, how far to push things and whether that glider you see over there is climbing well and is it worth it to go over for the same thermal. Personally I got bored quickly with the floating around the airport type flying.

 

[az_gila]

Larry, put it very nicely....

However, I must point out that the achievements are easier in the Western half of the US than in the East. Same amout of fun and challenge though...

In my case it was much cheaper when I lived in Los Angeles, but more time consuming with a 2 hour drive to the desert at weekends.

Gil Alexander - US Diamond #670

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

I currently have a commercial glider and am working (slowly) on my CFI-G.

I find soaring to be a very different challenge. Part of it is that you are ALWAYS busy, at least mentally. Where am I? Where is the next thermal? Am I centered in this thermal? Where the **** is that other glider that was in the thermal with me? Do I have enough altitude to leave the thermal and go to the next one? What's my speed to fly? You get the idea. The lower performance your ship, the busier you will be since, for example, in a 1-26, you're almost always looking for lift. A club ship like a PW5 or ASW20 will be better, but in our Duo Discus, you can actually have a calm moment to enjoy the scenery - and you can ask the rear seater to fly

As far as costs go ... soaring is cheaper if you get a lot from your tows. If you only have to take one tow and fly the entire day, yes, its cheap. You're not going to get to that point for quite a while. Our club charges a flat $16 for a pattern tow, both glider rental and tow. We do that to encourage people to stay current.

My suggestion is to find a club for instruction, a good safety culture and cheaper tows. I'd visit the SSA website at http://www.ssa.org/sport/wheretofly.asp and look for a club. If you'd like info on my club in the Dallas area, PM me or visit http://www.texassoaring.org/ We'd love to have you over.

TODR

 

[steve91t]

On a good day on the east coat, I used to have guys with their own gliders jumping off the rope at 800ft. Cheap tow, and would be gone all day.

Even just getting to the point of solo will teach you more than flying than anywhere else.

You don't have to go all out to learn a lot.

I say get an instructional flight, usually more expensive than a normal ride, but it's almost all hands on. I would talk them through the tow, and as soon as we released, they were flying. If they were doing really well, they pretty much did the landing.

It's a great way to learn stick and rudder. I think most glider pilots would agree they can handle an engine failure with less stress than someone who has never flown a glider.

Steve

 

[David Shelton]

When I need to go some place, I fly an airplane. When I'm just flying for fun, nothing beats a sailplane on a good soaring day. While it's expensive at first, the cost begins to drop when you start chasing badges and flying cross-country. My average flight time is just over 4 hours, so my tows only cost about $8/hr.

Has anybody put a tow hook on their RV?

 

[N223JH]

Other respondents have properly addressed your initial query of cost and enjoyment of soaring. You should know that you will also develop useful skills applicable to powered flight. You will learn to be *much* more comfortable at airspeeds near stall and sensitive to movement of the airmass around you. If you train on older sailplanes you *will* learn to love slipping.

And you will love your RV more after wearing out your leg muscles with the adverse yaw in long-winged sailplanes!

Jim
ex RV6A, RV12 #264
CFI-G from 25 years ago

 

[turbo]

personally ............

i couldn't replace my rv with a sailplane. it is #1. the rv though, can get you to the glider ports and more. the rating will make you a better pilot though. how close are you to a soaring club?

 

[eric_marsh]

i couldn't replace my rv with a sailplane. it is #1. the rv though, can get you to the glider ports and more. the rating will make you a better pilot though. how close are you to a soaring club?

I'm an hour or two's drive from the nearest soaring club. But I do think I'll try their intro which includes instructions, two pattern glides and a 200' tow for about $250.

 

[N941WR]

I am a glider pilot, and I'm developing a high-performance kit sailplane that is all composite and gives the European racers a run for the money, but requires no more composites skill than is required to install an RV-8 windshield.

In my experience, the dollars-per-hour cost of soaring doesn't start beating powered flight until you start getting into cross-country flying. Joining a glider club can bring the cost down a bunch, but then you have to schedule around club activities. It's all a trade-off, of course.

That said, I've long felt that cross-country and competition soaring gives good value in terms of dollars per unit exhilaration, whatever those units might be.

Thanks, Bob K.
__________________
HP-24 kit sailplane project
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
HP-24 project on Facebook

Bob,

I've been following your web site for a few years with great interest. It looks like you are getting closer to your first launch. Please post on here when you make your first flight!

 

[agough277]

motor glider ratings allow you too fly a powered plane without the incumberances of a Light Sport rating. Pipestrel makes a motor glider that looks like many LSA's but out performs same without LSA resrictions.

 

[steve91t]

motor glider ratings allow you too fly a powered plane without the incumberances of a Light Sport rating. Pipestrel makes a motor glider that looks like many LSA's but out performs same without LSA resrictions.

Problem with those is they aren't very good at being power planes and are terrible gliders. Unless you spend some serious cash.

Steve

 

[agough277]

My money is on the RV13 being a motor glider. The 12 already has the wings for same.

 

[Bob Kuykendall]

Bob,

I've been following your web site for a few years with great interest. It looks like you are getting closer to your first launch. Please post on here when you make your first flight!

Thanks, will do! And let me know if you're ever in the neighborhood, I'll show you around the project.

Thanks again, Bob K.

 

[Mel]

My money is on the RV13 being a motor glider. The 12 already has the wings for same.

But the RV-11 is already a motorglider!

 

[agough277]

The 11 has been Van's side job as I understand it. There was a very secret room at Van's the last time I was there. Wonder??????????[/U]

 

[larryj]

Pretty much all been said, and I agree; soaring makes you a better pilot and is fun. I learned to fly in gliders and very quickly moved on to soaring cross-country and competition. Personally I don't think just getting an add-on rating helps much in the skill area. There is a very large difference once you go beyond the point of turning back to land - going cross-country you learn and depend on skills, awareness, thought processes, and decisions that you would never have tapped without committing to a cross-country. For me transitioning from a glider license to a power license was all about learning and becoming familiar with airspace and the engine; flying the airplane was easy (and using rudder instinctive). I highly recommend learning to fly in gliders and I even more strongly recommend sticking with it long enough to gain serious cross-country experience. When asked "if you could keep only one airplane which one would you keep" nearly every pilot I know that flies both (and own both) answer with "my sailplane".

 

[Canadian_JOY]

One quick comment that I'll throw in here is what I consider living proof of the benefit of learning to fly a glider before learning to fly a powered aircraft.

I was very fortunate to have earned my glider pilot license through the Royal Canadian Air Cadets, and then a year later I was given the opportunity to have them sponsor me to obtain my private pilot license. On a late-evening flight with just a little over three hours of solo time under my belt the C-150 I was flying experienced an engine failure on short final. Unfortunately this happened as I was adding power to correct for heavy sink conditions which had put me below intended glide path.

Had I not already had the benefit of glider training this incident likely would have ended up as an accident statistic. Fortunately my first gliding instructor taught me the lesson of "penetration", and he must have taught it well because when the engine quit I instinctively pushed the nose down to get airspeed and to get closer to the ground to gain the benefit of ground effect. This technique saved my bacon as I was able to get the mains on the pavement, but only just. I still don't know how I managed to avoid nailing any of the lights at the end of the runway. (The company pickup truck had to come to tow me more than a mile back to the FBO as the engine would not re-start.)

 

[prkaye]

I was a glider pilot before i was a power pilot (also through the Canadian Air Cadet programme). I loved gliding. Gliding was an incredible way to learn sideslipping, and general stick and rudder skills.
I started on the Schweitzer 233, and then joined a private club and briefly flew the single seat Schweitzer 126. A couple of years later I was selected to go to England on an Air Cadet exchange, and there I got to spend a day flying the much nicer Grob 109, as well as a Grob motor-glider (many years later flying the Diamond Katana reminded me of that motor glider!).
The only thing about gliding is that it's a different sort of activity, socially. At least around here, when you join a gliding club it's not like joining a flying club where you can just show up, rent the plane for an hour to go flyign and then go home. The whole activity of gliding requires a lot of manpower, and club members are typically expected to spend a good portion of a day working the operation between your flights.
But it is a really fun way to fly, and a great way to build raw skill. I especially enjoyed flying behind the towplane... very focussing.

 

[Mike S]

Add me to the list of glider at first folks.

I started flying in the glider, in the early 1970s, and progressed so that I was solo in the 2-33, and 1-26.

When I started adding up the cost to get a private pilot ticket in the glider, (40 hours) my instructor explained how it would be just as cheap, or maybe even save $$ to get the PPL in a powered plane, and add the glider rating.

Someday I need to go add that rating

Like others have said, the skills learned are very valuable, and can even be life saving.

 

[Dave Cole]

Pretty much all been said, and I agree; soaring makes you a better pilot and is fun. I learned to fly in gliders and very quickly moved on to soaring cross-country and competition. [snip] ...going cross-country you learn and depend on skills, awareness, thought processes, and decisions that you would never have tapped without committing to a cross-country. [snip]

I agree with Larry. Cross-country soaring, especially competition soaring, can significantly improve your judgment and risk management skills. When there's no throttle to counteract the pull of gravity, you learn to fly with a continual awareness of what your options are, and to reformulate your options as the conditions around you change. You also gain a tremendous awareness of the weather and learn to better predict what will happen in the near term.

It's an education in aviation that can't be matched. And it is a totally engrossing experience. No need for satellite radio to entertain you.

 

[sportpilot]

no motor

Flying with no motor is the greatest of all joy. Ive had lift of more than 2000 fpm, I climbed with my instructor in Texas in a 2-33 from tow release to 8500 feet and had to use spoilers to get back down.

The problem is you need a tow, or somebody to push you off the side of a hill maybe? An economical self launch home built sail plane would have no equal in my eyes. I would jump right on it. C'mon RV 11

To really have the best ride you need to own your own ship. and that can be expensive. Ive been in several clubs and find it very dissapointing with rules needed to be fair to all members, some limit to a one hour flght so just when you hit that big thermal its time to go down. Other rules prohibit from leaving the airport area so good by cross country. And, the window of opportunity doesnt come every day, and usually only lasts from noon till about 5pm local times.

In short the ride is beyond compare, but the logistics make it a team sport and not an individual impules flight like hoping in your RV at sunset to watch the birds find a roost. But I like it just the same.

 

[Bob Kuykendall]

...When asked "if you could keep only one airplane which one would you keep" nearly every pilot I know that flies both (and own both) answer with "my sailplane".

Larry, I see that you're in WA. You should look up Brad Hill in Monroe and see if you can get a look at our first article glider.

BTW, I first started flying gliders at a field in a little town called North Plains, Oregon, in 1974.

Thanks again, Bob K.

 

[prkaye]

winch

Regarding needing a tow, one operation that some clubs use is a winch, which I've had the opportunity to get checked-out on. It's an exciting way to take off... when I was a teenager doing that I imagined I was on the deck of a carrier getting catapulted off as the winch started up. Only gets you about a thousand feet, but if it's a good day for thermals sometimes that's all you need.

 

[longranger]

This thread is making me feel like a slacker... living 10 minutes from Mountain Valley Gliderport (L94) for 14 years and no glider rating yet.

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

The problem is you need a tow, or somebody to push you off the side of a hill maybe? An economical self launch home built sail plane would have no equal in my eyes. I would jump right on it. C'mon RV 11

Ah, is there such a thing? A true high-performance self-launcher (DG-808, ASH-30Mi) is well over $200k and would be VERY hard to duplicate at home. You might be able to build a touring motorglider (30:1 L/D and 200+ fpm min sink), but a 45:1 L/D and 120 fpm min sink ship will probably elude all but the most skilled homebuilders.

If you want cheap launches, try auto towing. Our club just did an auto tow workshop earlier this month and it was interesting. The Europeans are big on winches for cheap tows, but they are rare here in the US.

But yes, I will concede that the benefit of a self-launcher is that you can go whenever you want. It's gonna cost you, though....

TODR

 

[rph142]

I would love to have a half decent self launch glider that could land and taxi around on a regular airport. There are many out there that only have a single center wheel, which would make taxiing very difficult. I think even 29:1would suffice. I've had a 3.5 hour 2k-9k flight and several 2 plus hour flights in the PSU soaring club Blanik's. On a typical northeastern sunny summer day even a bulky aluminum Blanik can stay up.

 

[az_gila]

I would love to have a half decent self launch glider that could land and taxi around on a regular airport. There are many out there that only have a single center wheel, which would make taxiing very difficult. I think even 29:1would suffice. I've had a 3.5 hour 2k-9k flight and several 2 plus hour flights in the PSU soaring club Blanik's. On a typical northeastern sunny summer day even a bulky aluminum Blanik can stay up.

Sounds like a metal Grob 109 equivalent....

30-1 and around $55K used...

http://www.pacificaerosport.com/forsale.htm

 

[rph142]

An engine would of course prevent this from happening...

It wasnt me flying - I was the retriever that day.

 

[scsmith]

Most self-launching sailplanes can taxi

I would love to have a half decent self launch glider that could land and taxi around on a regular airport. There are many out there that only have a single center wheel, which would make taxiing very difficult. I think even 29:1would suffice. I've had a 3.5 hour 2k-9k flight and several 2 plus hour flights in the PSU soaring club Blanik's. On a typical northeastern sunny summer day even a bulky aluminum Blanik can stay up.

PIK-20E, DG-400, DG-800, ASH-26E, Antares, many others have small wingtip wheels and a steerable tail wheel, so you can taxi all you want. And these are all 40:1+ gliders.

It is true that they are pricey. But I wish I had bought one when Euro's were $0.78.

 

[rph142]

It looks like they can taxi just fine at a large grass gliderport, but I just cant see them taxing down a 20 foot wide taxiway with rough grass on either side. I would think the wing tip wheel would hang up. A single seat Sinus is what Im picturing. Maybe glass wings and a aluminum fuse with stubby RV-3 gearlegs and pants.

 

[kevinh]

I am. In fact, except for aerobatics I like gliding better than flying the RV. The feeling of 'I flew a few hours today using only my skill at finding/using thermals' is very rewarding.

Towards goal

Launching

 

[foka4]

I'm a glider guider

I love all types of flying, but I can't imagine ever giving up soaring. For me, it's always been a very economical way to maintain a high level of stick-and-rudder proficiency.

A side benefit: Glider pilots seem to have a much easier time managing descents in fixed pitch RVs. Save yourself the $$$ on the expensive prop and use the money for glider flying!

M

 

[L.Adamson]

A side benefit: Glider pilots seem to have a much easier time managing descents in fixed pitch RVs. Save yourself the $$$ on the expensive prop and use the money for glider flying!

When you can manage a 2000 fpm descent for a landing at the bottom of a canyon, with an actual decrease in airspeed...........then let me know..

L.Adamson --- RV6A, Hartzell C/S

 

[az_gila]

When you can manage a 2000 fpm descent for a landing at the bottom of a canyon, with an actual decrease in airspeed...........then let me know..

L.Adamson --- RV6A, Hartzell C/S

Actually that is relatively easy in a modern sailplane with good dive brakes....

 

[L.Adamson]

Actually that is relatively easy in a modern sailplane with good dive brakes....

Yes, I figured that...........as I've flown sailplanes too. I was just referring to RV's with F/Ps..........and dive brakes not installed.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

 

[the_other_dougreeves]

I would love to have a half decent self launch glider that could land and taxi around on a regular airport. There are many out there that only have a single center wheel, which would make taxiing very difficult. I think even 29:1would suffice. I've had a 3.5 hour 2k-9k flight and several 2 plus hour flights in the PSU soaring club Blanik's. On a typical northeastern sunny summer day even a bulky aluminum Blanik can stay up.

Sounds like you want a Katana Motorglider. The HK36 is now getting imported into the US again. It's not cheap.

TODR

 

[turbo]

i like this thought of..........

gliding in a rv. i have been thinking of prepping my rv for some acro gliding. clean out the cockpit of anything loose, get some better harnesses, and go up to 17,999' and shut her down. ( over say indiantown airport- 6,000' grass uncontrolled.) that might give me 15 minutes or so of some fun acro gliding. always wanted to fly inverted in my rv. might even bring along a friend in another rv for some pics inverted. food for thought. video camera for sure.

 

[N941WR]

Yes, I figured that...........as I've flown sailplanes too. I was just referring to RV's with F/Ps..........and dive brakes not installed.

L.Adamson --- RV6A

LA you would never be happy with a sailplane as you couldn't post on the FP vs. CS prop thing and your entire climb performance argument goes out the window.

 

[hendrik]

LA you would never be happy with a sailplane as you couldn't post on the FP vs. CS prop thing and your entire climb performance argument goes out the window.

I've just been at a wave camp in Sweden with my glider. Climbing through FL 180 with 1200 fpm -- and no engine at all! What's the climb performance of your RV at that altitude?

About the original question, well, I'm one of those who started with gliding. In fact I don't have a power rating yet (haven't even started taking lessons for it). Soaring, especially cross-country, is great and teaches me a lot about flying, weather, situational awareness, ... Certainly something I wouldn't want to miss.