[blandess]

Hey guys(and gals),
I have been torn between a conventional six pack panel with an HSI vs an AFS PFD? I REALLY like the new synthetic vision system they have coming up but my wallet favors conventional. My radio stack will be GMA 340, GNC 300XL, SL30, GTX 327 and an A/P which I haven't decided from who. Engine monitor will be JPI EDM 930 in any case. The goal is simplicity and ergonomics friendly. I want to have provisions and space for an IFR upgrade later and I would like everyone else's opinion on it. I will do some aerobatics but they will be few and far between and STRICTLY zero clouds with unlimited visibilty so it won't matter too much if the ADI tumbles. Airframe will be a -7.

Thoughts?

Thanks as always!

 

[islandmonkey]

Do a cost comparison

Do a cost comparison on all the instruments that you need to buy if you go the six pack route. If you go the glass route, you can throw out more than just the six pack. You can throw out the following:

RPM indicator
Voltmeter
Ammeter
Fuel Level and pressure.
Manifold Pressure.
EGT
CHT
Oil Temp and Pressure.

Plus you can get Angle of Attack on most glass displays available and your going to save a lot of weight.

Keep a conventional Airspeed Indicator and magnetic compass however if your just flying VFR. If your going to go IFR then consider a second glass panel or at least an additional conventional Artificial Horizon and a Altitude Indicator as well as the VFR stuff.

I plan on VFR only as we cannot fly IFR in experimental aircraft in Europe

Cost for AFS AF-3500EE Single 8.4" Display with all probes, back up battery and Angle of Attack option is $7384.

 

[Chino Tom]

You won't need the engine monitor if you buy the AFS 3500. You also won't need an encoder or a VOR/ILS/GS head, they are all in the AFS EFIS. I love mine, but as the previous poster indicated, i have backups, a ASI, Altimeter and a compass (that was a waste of money however as the GPS will give your ground track). Also, my EFIS has a battery back up, as does my 496 GPS and I have a tru-track A/P to keep the wings level as long as i have battery power.

 

[frankh]

If your going IFR a wing lveller will be essential.

Personally I don't like the idea of the EFIS and the a/p together in one box for redundancy reasons. Therefore a Trutrak A/p (the Pictorial pilot and a couple of others provide the backup turn and bank indicator also).

The Dynons are the cheapest EFIS and quite superb.

I think if you do a real sit down comparison you'll be very close on cast if you got with an EFIS and two machanical steam gauges, namely a Vans ASi and altimeter.

Dump the vacuum pump (with relish!) and do all the aerobatics you want and never be bothered with Gyro precession ever again.

Its really not a debate in my mind at least.

Frank

 

[blandess]

You won't need the engine monitor if you buy the AFS 3500..

How is the screen resolution on it? I was planning on just the PFD version and have the EDM 930 seperate. Are the bar graphs for EGT/CHT large and easy to read? How about LeanFind function? Are there any things that it doesn't have that you wish it would?

 

[Vlad]

Listen to your wallet. Before you decide on instrumentation ask your wallet about new engine and prop
I know mine got crazy... still coughing...

......

snip



......but my wallet favors conventional.

snip

Thoughts?

Thanks as always!

 

[blandess]

Listen to your wallet. Before you decide on instrumentation ask your wallet about new engine and prop
I know mine got crazy... still coughing...

Hahaha! I'm already set on an IO-360 that I will buy used and overhaul myself with some help of a guy I know that used to build them. The prop is a 200RV from Whirlwind... Most of the instruments are all up for debate, and the functions I seek hasn't changed but the form that it will take has and I was wondering everyone else's thoughts on something I may have overlooked.

 

[Vlad]

engine and prop

All right. That's good news. The rest is easy your used laptop or iMac, Kindle and iPhone you won't be looking at your panel anyway. Others will. By the time you are done, Aspen avionics will develop new line of glass. Love them.

 

[Ironflight]

I did this cost comparison five years ago - even up capabilities between electronic and steam (IFR capable and quality), and even back then the Glass won on cost alone! Mechanical HSI's are very expensive - and prone to failure.

Paul

 

[CNEJR]

The CPA in me says...........

"What something actually cost you is the difference between what you buy and sell it for". I know most people don't think ahead to the day they will sell their baby, but that day will come. When building my plane, I kept this in mind. Will I recover the cost of all the little, neat dodads I put in my plane, probably not, but I will come close and it really makes the "difference" in a real nice plane and run of the mill. (Not trying to start a war here), but what really surprises me is engine selection, put a Subie on the front/cut your sales price by 30/40%. Might run good, but it's just a fact. In making selections for your plane, you are not spending money on perishable items but on durable goods. In many cases it is a "hedge" against inflation. When you actually consider today's dollar is worth 73% of what the dollar was worth in 2000, what is the better deal? Having your money in hard goods such as guns, airplanes, classic cars, etc. This doesn't even speak to where our dollar is heading in the next 24 months. Is is scary, buy guns and a few airplane parts in my opinion.

 

[ClayR_9A]

There's initial cost.. and then there's lifetime cost...

Even though an EFIS might come out cheaper initially, if it only lasts 5-8 years vs. conventional instruments lasting 20+(?) then have you really saved any money?

An EFIS WILL rapidly depreciate because there will always be newer, cheaper, and better models coming on the market. If you try to sell your plane in 5+ years, the buyer is likely to value your EFIS at nearly $0 because they're going to figure they'll be buying a new one soon.

Don't forget the labor cost of installing a new EFIS in an old plane. This could be easy if it is an "upgrade" from the same manufacturer but will likely still involve cutting some metal if the form factor changes. If the engine instruments are involved, it is a MUCH BIGGER DEAL to swap it out for a new one. This is why I now recommend to separate the engine instruments from the EFIS... they're less likely to need to be upgraded as soon or to be obsolete.

(Don't ask me how I know all of this)

 

[blandess]

All great insights. I do agree with Clay 9 on the glass stuff becoming obsolete quickly and keeping the engine instruments seperate. I like the idea of "this is my PFD and handles flight instruments and that over there is where the health of my engine is reported." I am a former F-16 Avionics guy and want to arrange the cockpit to be ergonomic and easily memorized so I can act without looking. Given that I have that background and my current job as an avionics tech I can upgrade my panel for just the cost of parts because I will do all the wiring and integration.

Another thought I had was: What if my airspeed or altitude tape fails in the glass setup vs conventional? Conventional I simply replace the broken component---glass; I have to take the whole thing out and send it away, which I'm assuming isn't cheap. Anyone with the AFS3500 had this happen? If so, what was the repair cost minus S&H?

 

[Chino Tom]

How is the screen resolution on it? I was planning on just the PFD version and have the EDM 930 seperate. Are the bar graphs for EGT/CHT large and easy to read? How about LeanFind function? Are there any things that it doesn't have that you wish it would?

The screen resolution is fine. No problems in bright sunlight. The engine
instruments are VERY easy to read. The AFS gives you two choices of
displays for EGT/CHT, bar graphs or a cylinder display. The lean to peak
function works great. AFS also continues to upgrade their system. The new software version has a flight director function (with command bars) that is nice. I don't have the map feature and don't know if i will add the synthetic vision when it is available in August. I really like this system and as it goes folks recommend what they have. I know the Dynon is cheaper, but i liked the display of the AFS and that is why I bought it. I have 70 hours on my -8A. There are so many functions like checklists and weight and balance that are useful. They can be adjusted on your PC through a SD card on the front of the EFIS. New software is loaded this way also. You have to be somewhat computer literate to really use all the functions but is no big deal. The biggest problem I have is looking at the thing to much when airborne.

 

[N131RV]

Efis cost

Even though an EFIS might come out cheaper initially, if it only lasts 5-8 years vs. conventional instruments lasting 20+(?) then have you really saved any money?

Properly provisioned, installed and maintained, computers (EFIS) can (and do) last for decades. So, yes. I'd say the possibility exists. Depending on vendor, you can ask for the MTBF on the equipment and the resultant repair cost and make a good decision.

An EFIS WILL rapidly depreciate because there will always be newer, cheaper, and better models coming on the market. If you try to sell your plane in 5+ years, the buyer is likely to value your EFIS at nearly $0 because they're going to figure they'll be buying a new one soon.

This is a common fallacy. "Something that works, and works well, will become useless or without value because there is/might/will be something better". I don't agree. Something that works and works well will always have some value. Now, should the unit become an orphan, all bets are off.

Don't forget the labor cost of installing a new EFIS in an old plane. This could be easy if it is an "upgrade" from the same manufacturer but will likely still involve cutting some metal if the form factor changes. If the engine instruments are involved, it is a MUCH BIGGER DEAL to swap it out for a new one. This is why I now recommend to separate the engine instruments from the EFIS... they're less likely to need to be upgraded as soon or to be obsolete.

(Don't ask me how I know all of this)

My upgrade was actually MUCH easier than the original 6 pack install. Of course, I had "thought ahead" and used a modular panel.

The wiring was easier and I used all my original engine sensors as well.

Finally, ask yourself this. Given the choice of two planes, otherwise equal, will a buyer WANT the six pack airplane?

Some will for sure. But after you've gotten used to the enhanced awareness and convenience that a good glass cockpit gives you, you won't want to go back. I know I don't.

Just MHO, worth every cent it cost.

 

[Ron Lee]

Joe may be right. My plane has normal instruments. While I fly all over and probably have zero negative impact from not having a glass panel, it may be a negative if I ever sold.

I know that certain engine choices are automatic NO-Go for me. The same may apply to glass panels vs 6 pack.

PS, a RV-8 from SW Kansas was just in a 00V and needed some help. The panel had a 6 pack, autopilot, Garmin GNS 530, SL30 (I think), and an Advance engine monitor.

It sure looked good and personally I would not thought anything negative about it were I to consider buying it.

 

[turbo]

combination of both

why decide? combine both in one panel. take out the vac system replace ai and dg with dynon or your choice. get what you want. nothing will be perfect for resale. 496 for wx, trutrak ap for ifr and good back up. it only needs power. then 430 or your choice for nav/com. what does that cost? too much? probably $30 thousand. 2 cents........

 

[Kyle Boatright]

One of the big issues I see with the EFIS products is long term support. This is enough of a niche industry that some players will not survive, so if you pick the wrong manufacturer, there may be no support for you down the road.

The second issue is that electronic components are not manufactured/stocked indefinitely. If the watzit in the EFIS dies and the component manufacturer stopped making that particular watzit a couple of years ago, it may not matter if the EFIS manufacturer is still in business, because if the part isn't available, it isn't available. Which means the $$ glass panel is unsupportable. I've already faced this issue (but on a smaller scale) with the timing indicator from my Electroair ignition. No longer available and its absence leaves a strange little hole in my panel.

With steam gauges, even if you can't get yours repaired, you'll always be able to find a similar product down the road. And replacing one round gauge will be far less expensive than replacing a glass panel.

On the flipside, I do believe buyers are attracted to *modern* glass (not the model from 5 years ago). So you have to consider whether you ever plan to sell the airplane, and if so, how far down the road will that be?

 

[CNEJR]

All great insights. I do agree with Clay 9 on the glass stuff becoming obsolete quickly and keeping the engine instruments seperate. I like the idea of "this is my PFD and handles flight instruments and that over there is where the health of my engine is reported." I am a former F-16 Avionics guy and want to arrange the cockpit to be ergonomic and easily memorized so I can act without looking. Given that I have that background and my current job as an avionics tech I can upgrade my panel for just the cost of parts because I will do all the wiring and integration.

Another thought I had was: What if my airspeed or altitude tape fails in the glass setup vs conventional? Conventional I simply replace the broken component---glass; I have to take the whole thing out and send it away, which I'm assuming isn't cheap. Anyone with the AFS3500 had this happen? If so, what was the repair cost minus S&H?

Yep, Glass is just a passing fad, I wouldn't do it if I were you. Why did you even ask?

 

[frankh]

Hmm

Lets see... Put a six pack in do a few acro manouvers and trash the gyros. While your at it replace the vacuum pump every few hundred hours at, How much do they cost again?..I sure hope the VP doesn't wear out in IMC!

Sounds like a bargain compared to glass to me..NOT!

Oh and fuss with precession too...With an EFIS you won't know what precession is!

Frank

 

[islandmonkey]

Yep, Glass is just a passing fad, I wouldn't do it if I were you. Why did you even ask?

A passing fad?

Glass is not a passing fad. It is the result of years of R&D. For example:

Compare this:

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/brooklands/images/3714/concorde-cockpit.jpg

to this:

http://winrt.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/a380-cockpit.png


Both the above aircraft are examples of cockpits of iconic aircraft representing the status at the time of the level of technology available to aircraft designers.

The trouble these days is that if you want to go glass in your own pet project your going to have to bite the bullet and go for what is available at that point in time, knowing that in a couple of years your panel will be regarded as old. This is the case with many things these days from cars to computers. If you want to live in the Jurassic past then go for the six pack, thats your choice and don't let anyone dissuade you. If you want the latest and greatest then be prepared for the world to move on but again don't let anyone dissuade you.

This forum is for posing questions and getting answers and opinions. Do not be afraid to ask a question. There is no such thing as a stupid question, if you do not know the answer.

 

[pierre smith]

Fact of the matter is...

...anything can fail.

This is my 42nd year of licensed flying (I'm 63) and have lost friends to bad vacuum pumps on final in IMC.

My buddy has a glass panel in his -4 that went TU during an upgrade install, so now he's grounded, for the most part...no oil pressure or temp available....and it's not a Blue Mountain.

I have steam gauges in my -6 because I'm old school but now that my GRT HX has arrived, I'm new school and really looking forward to it. Believe me, glass is so much easier to "scan" since it's all in one easy to read spot.

Bottom line, make yourself happy....you can always buy another aluminum dash for around $15 from Van and start over.

Regards,

 

[N131RV]

My solution

...anything can fail.

My buddy has a glass panel in his -4 that went TU during an upgrade install, so now he's grounded, for the most part...no oil pressure or temp available....and it's not a Blue Mountain.

Regards,

Yup, that kept me up nights. I didn't want to be "stranded" away from home waiting on the EFIS mfg.

So I went dual EFIS. Then, just to be sure, I popped the extra $200 to keep a spare engine pod (all the sensors connect to it) on board. Weighs about 6 ounces and fits in my luggage.

 

[ClayR_9A]

Don't get me wrong...

I'm not against glass. I'm just saying that you need to know that it isn't all about the initial price when comparing the costs and don't be surprised down the road when you need to shell out a few $1000 for a replacement or upgrade on your EFIS.

One other mistake I've seen plenty of people make is buying their EFIS too soon. Two years later, they're still trying to finish the plane and that fancy new EFIS isn't so fancy anymore. No sense in watching your EFIS depreciate in your garage.

My free advice is to cut a BIG HOLE in your panel where you want to put your EFIS (or conventional instruments) and then create two or three blanks to cover up that hole and paint them all at the same time with the same paint you use on the rest of your panel. Now, you can cut a hole in the blanks for your new EFIS just before you complete your plane and start flying. In a few years when you want (or need) a new EFIS, take out the next blank, cut a new hole in that, and you can easily install your new EFIS and replace the old one.

 

[John Clark]

Big Hole theory

My free advice is to cut a BIG HOLE in your panel where you want to put your EFIS (or conventional instruments) and then create two or three blanks to cover up that hole and paint them all at the same time with the same paint you use on the rest of your panel. Now, you can cut a hole in the blanks for your new EFIS just before you complete your plane and start flying. In a few years when you want (or need) a new EFIS, take out the next blank, cut a new hole in that, and you can easily install your new EFIS and replace the old one.

I agree, here is mine, ready for glass when the time comes.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

 

[Ron Lee]

John, how does your plane fly without all glass? After reading all this I should never have flown with a six pack panel to the Bahamas, Caymans via Cuba, Kitty Hawk, Catalina, Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Death Valley, Las Vegas, Monument Valley, Crystal River to swim with manatees, Devil's Tower, Mt Rushmore, Piney Pinecreek, Mineral Canyon, Leadville, CO, and so on.

 

[flyeyes]

John, how does your plane fly without all glass? After reading all this I should never have flown with a six pack panel to the Bahamas, Caymans via Cuba, Kitty Hawk, Catalina, Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Death Valley, Las Vegas, Monument Valley, Crystal River to swim with manatees, Devil's Tower, Mt Rushmore, Piney Pinecreek, Mineral Canyon, Leadville, CO, and so on.

Umm, without the glass panel how can you be sure you really were all those places? ;-)

 

[John Clark]

Wow....

Umm, without the glass panel how can you be sure you really were all those places? ;-)

Hmm, not sure, but I think it has something to do with the brown book over by my right knee and looking outside. Otherwise, the last 43 years have been a complex fraud.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA