[jweaver]

Good Afternoon,

This is my first RV post, and if I go through with the build (I want too) im sure it will not be the last. Im a 100 hour pilot tired of renting already. I cannot get the plane for the entire weekend for cross country flights and I also have been flying aerobatics (with instructor) in training for IAC basic and sportsman. Wife says I can only own one plane, so I do not want to by a spam can for cross country that cannot do aerobatics, or buy an aerobatic plane that does not go cross country.

I have been looking to sell my 600hp turbo car to start the build. I have experience in building engines as a hobby.

My questions are on vendors and costs vs. the vans site calculator cost.
I am willing to buy an older engine thats out of service time and rebuild.. if it will save money, buy refurbished props or used avionics that are tested.

My questions are around how much I could save over the vans calculator if I build with refurbished (factory or reputable shop) parts? I am also really trying to find a list/websites of places that sell props refurbished vs. new or high mile engines that are good canidates for rebuilds

I am looking at doing an RV8, with an inverted oil and fuel system, open to 160 or 180 hp lycoming, and an aerobatic prop.

Any help on vendors or reputable shops that sell parts at a lower cost than the vans calculators assumed new prices would help me move forward with the decision.

Thank you

Jason W

 

[Mike S]

Welcome to VAF!!!!

Jason, welcome aboard.

Sounds like you have a good start on your decision process, and comming here is another good choice

You mentioned you are married, is she open to flying?? If so, you need to get her input on side by side, or tandem.

The 7, and the 8 are pretty close in performance, main difference is seating.

Many prior threads about this, maybe a good time to get used to the search function here.

FFIW, my wife was not interested in a tandem, that is until I got her a ride in a buddies 8.

That grin lasted for close to a week.

Good Luck,

 

[drill_and_buck]

It would be tough to beat

Hi Jason:

Welcome to wonderful world of VAF and RV building.

I think that Vans estimates are very conservative and would be tough to beat. Its not that you can't beat them but you may be often challenged with scope creep.

Below are Van's estimates...

Price Breakdown Low High
RV-8 Standard kit $20530 $20530
Used mid-time Lycoming $12000 $18000
Hartzell constant-speed prop $6590 $6835
Prop governor and cabling $1350 $1350
Firewall forward accessories $3400 $4800
Analog flight instruments $700 $1000
VFR cross country instruments $1100 $1100
Nav and landing lights / strobes $890 $890
Basic avionics $1000 $2600
Basic electrical system $400 $1000
Cushions / harnesses $900 $900
No paint $0 $0
Mid-US standard kit shipping / crating $850 $1000
Total Kit Low=> $49,710 High =>$60,005

Vans estimates include purchasing a mid time engine and it does not include the cost of a rebuild. CS prop costs are for a new prop. Engine/prop high end estimate is $24,835. If you are planning on an 180 HP/Inverted fuel & oil/Aerobatic prop you *might* be able to save a few k by hunting for some bargains. Ideally an engine/prop combo off an existing RV.

You mentioned that you are currently flying the IAC basic and sportsman sequences. The RV-8 is an aerobatic aircraft however, it is not well suited for IAC competition. It is much too slippery and it builds up speed quickly. If you are planning to use the -8 to compete in IAC events you might want to consider another mount.

Where to look for bargains? VAF, ebay, barnstormers, and the local FBOs would be good start.

Caveat emptor.

Mike Draper
RV-8 TMX0360 CS
N468RV
Finishing

 

[Sam Buchanan]

My questions are around how much I could save over the vans calculator if I build with refurbished (factory or reputable shop) parts? I am also really trying to find a list/websites of places that sell props refurbished vs. new or high mile engines that are good canidates for rebuilds

I am looking at doing an RV8, with an inverted oil and fuel system, open to 160 or 180 hp lycoming, and an aerobatic prop.

Any help on vendors or reputable shops that sell parts at a lower cost than the vans calculators assumed new prices would help me move forward with the decision.

Thank you

Jason W

Welcome, Jason.

You are considering a fascinating and challenging journey! Building a plane will make your other projects pale in comparison in complexity and satisfaction. I certainly understand your interest in poking through budget options, I have certainly spent a lot of time there myself.

However..........(you knew this was coming...) I suggest you go ahead and use the figures on the Vans cost calculator for budget planning. This airplane, regardless of your efforts to cut costs, is going to cost more than you now expect. I promise. The Vans calculator is pretty good at allowing for the inevitable budget creep that occurs in every RV project (hey, they base this calculator on the history of 6000 projects) and I suspect your finished cost will be very close to the estimation.

Most likely, by the time you are ready to purchase engine and avionics, the mission profile for your plane will have changed (you will have more pilot experience and RV knowledge) along with your willingness to throw money at something you will then be determined to finish with little compromises. Believe me......I've been in the RV game for twelve years and have seen this little drama play out many, many times.

The vendors that you will want to deal with are pretty much playing on a level field which is dictated by the size of the RV community. If you find someone dealing significantly under market price, watch out.

If I could make one suggestion on your proposed project, it would be to ditch the inverted oil system. It is unnecessarily complex, heavy and costly, and RV's are capable of doing all the aerobatics the plane is happy with without the inverted system.

Get familiar with the search engine in this forum, do your homework, and look forward to flying your own, custom-built aircraft.

 

[jweaver]

Thank you for the feedback so far! Very helpful! I did try searching for "refurbished","used" parts "vendors" and "Shops" before I made the post...as I am very familiar from my use of car internet sites about search etiquette before posting. My search terms just did not seem to find what I was looking for on the site.

I will run with Vans estimates and just try to save where I can to offest unexpected cost.

Dont know about giving up the inverted oil system. I love slow rolls and inverted flight and pinning the nose on the 45 downline of the cuban 8. I actually dont mind negative gs that much... which must make me an odd ball im sure...but I will search on this more.

Thanks again and hope to get a lot more advise on this post and many more

Jason

 

[N941WR]

Jason,

Welcome to the VAF forum. You will find many of us on here are former auto racers (Just sold my car before Christmas. )

As you build there are two things to keep in mind. 1. How can I keep it as light as possible. Just like the car thing, heavy weight is a performance killer. and 2. What options are required for my mission.

There are a lot of very nice RV's out there that have a ton of options and others that don't even have position lights. Again, it comes down to YOUR mission.

That doesn't mean you will not have room for "improvements", quite the contrary. One perfect example and budget buster is the Andair fuel valve. It is a few hundred dollars when compared to the boiler valve Van's includes with the kit. You will have to make the choice to use it or the stock valve. Same goes for the engine, do you want to add electronic ignition or not. You get the idea.

As you post and read this forum, you will find there is a LOT of advice on how to do things, in many cases, there are multiple acceptable ways to do the same thing.

If you haven't do so, check out Dan C's web site, http://www.rvproject.com. It will give you a good idea of what you are in for. Just keep in mind, some things on that site (or any site, mine included, for that matter) are not correct and may lead you astray.

A number of people on this board have created web sites, check them out, as you get into this. There is a LOT of good advice on all those web sites.

 

[videobobk]

Welcome!

The only advice I would add to the above is sort of obvious, but you have to be ready to take advantage of bargains. The day I saved over $100 on new seat belts was no big deal, but the time we saved about $10,000 on an engine and FWF from a storm damaged 6A took some Big Bucks. If I hadn't been ready and had the money set aside, someone else would be flying that engine now. There IS money to be saved, but believe me (and everyone else here,) it will just be spent on something else. And it IS worth it!

Do check out both the 7 and 8. And having a wife that sanctions all this is priceless! Keep her in the loop.

Bob Kelly

 

[pierre smith]

Good advice from Bob........

.....and we did basically the same thing......a line of credit from my local bank so I could write checks to $15,000. You never know when a bargain shows up......and also...the early bird catches the worm. Check here and Barnstormers early every morning for a jump on a bargain.

Regards,

 

[panhandler1956]

Welcome aboard!

Jason,
Glad to see another -8 buider joining the fray - hopefully!

I agree with the good advice thus far. One other point I would add is time. Make sure that your estimates of how long the project will take are not too lean, like budget creep you will certainly take more time than you plan for out of the gate. Modifications are a huge time killer, so you have to do some soul-searching to make sure there is value added.
Most important point - do something on your airplane every day if possible, even if it's only :30 minutes. Keeping engaged will keep you from wasting valuable time and keep the project fresh and IMHO makes it much more fun.
Good luck and hopefully I can park my to-be-finished RV8 next to yours at OSH some day!

 

[jweaver]

Im estimating if I move forward with the project that it will take me about 3.5 -4.5 years to complete based on 10 hours a week for 50 weeks per year and im betting that would be conservative if not for budget constraints. Im a little OCD (obsessive compulsive) and when I build my cars from the ground up I pretty much live in the garage 24-7 and have a single track mind. My spouse is aware of the behavior after a decade, but it helps that the garage is 75 feet away from the living room.

I am off to my first EAA meeting Tuesday and working on making arrangements I hope to fly in some of the local RVs to decide. Im pretty sure im dead set on tandum in the -8 after flying tandum in great lakes bi planes. I would install throttle controls in the rear, rudder pedals, stick and a few basic instruments so my wife could land in emergency or enjoy flying. She is not a pilot, but does love cross country trips and take the controls(including tv remove ).

Since I already started the thread, two questions:
Is the lycoming 320 cheaper to build and more abundant in parts supply or is the 360 more available...and if I purchase an inverted oil system do I need to still find an aerobatic engine like and AEIO360 or will a regular lycoming with inverted oil survive just fine at the sportsman level?

 

[jweaver]

PS: was it worth getting out of cars...im guessing so since you sold? That seems to be the hardest part or my choice to start this project...because my current car has been in two magazines which was always a goal of mine for the 7 years I kept on building it up.....and I have so much blood and sweat into it that im having a hard time selling

Jason,

Welcome to the VAF forum. You will find many of us on here are former auto racers (Just sold my car before Christmas. )

 

[rvator51]

What happened?

I thought you wanted to build a RV-4?

 

[dav1111]

New Builder

You indicated in your first post that you wanted to have both a cross country airplane and one to do aerobatics. If you plan on taking your wife with you on the cross country trips, the best advise I can give you about whether to pick a side by side or tandum model is to make sure your wife flys with somebody in both type airplanes for at least an hour flight, not just a trip around the patch, before you decide. After you build, if momma isn't happy you probably won't be either.

My wife would be very unhappy sitting in the back seat of an RV-4 or RV-8 for two plus hour cross country flights. In addition if you do much winter flying the wife won't be happy with the heat distribution in a tandum.

As far as build costs, especially since you have experience building auto engines, I would recommend going with an ECI 180HP kit engine. Just finished the build on mine for the RV-7 and it is really nice.

You might not have much experience with glass panels but you can keep the panel cost down quite a bit by going with a Grand Rapids Sport EFIS and a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor. Cost would be less than an all electric six pack. If you are going to do aerobatics you do not want a vacumn six pack because the frequent overhaul costs of the vacumn Attitude Indicator and DG will eat you up.

 

[jweaver]

I hoping to get the wife up in a tandom ride in a 4 and 8 before we decide. From what I hear the tandom has more room and viewing area than some of the side by side models. As you can see above I have at least got her to sit in Toms to date. I dont know if I would build unless its tandom because thats my preference and flying aerobatics it helps me being on the center line. I plan to install a full set of controls less brakes in the back so she can fly too. Figured Id mount and air speed indicator, altimeter and or GPS unit in line of site for back passanger or if I take back seat and let her fly. I am working on her possibly getting her pilots license.

Regarding engine kit you did, is it financially cheaper or cost the same, but better parts and performance over buying a lycoming from vans or other?

I am also looking at glass flight deck as a possibility. I currently fly the G1000 in a turbo 182 rental at the local fbo for cross country.

My wife would be very unhappy sitting in the back seat of an RV-4 or RV-8 for two plus hour cross country flights. In addition if you do much winter flying the wife won't be happy with the heat distribution in a tandum.

As far as build costs, especially since you have experience building auto engines, I would recommend going with an ECI 180HP kit engine. Just finished the build on mine for the RV-7 and it is really nice.

You might not have much experience with glass panels but you can keep the panel cost down quite a bit by going with a Grand Rapids Sport EFIS and a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor. Cost would be less than an all electric six pack. If you are going to do aerobatics you do not want a vacumn six pack because the frequent overhaul costs of the vacumn Attitude Indicator and DG will eat you up.

 

[jweaver]

Tom,

My preference is still the RV4, but its seemingly more easy to assemble an8 these days, more weight capacity if we get fat while I build over the years, I think they may have higher resell value, and my lady seemed concerned a little about room in the 4....but maybe a ride in the 4 and an 8 would help her or me decide? Hint

I thought you wanted to build a RV-4?

 

[N941WR]

PS: was it worth getting out of cars...im guessing so since you sold? That seems to be the hardest part or my choice to start this project...because my current car has been in two magazines which was always a goal of mine for the 7 years I kept on building it up.....and I have so much blood and sweat into it that im having a hard time selling

I don't know. I had a '99 Miata which I used for track days and A-X'ing and was one of the top three drivers in CSP in the Southeast for a few years running. (I even pulled FTD at one event in my MIATA!) Loved that car, I could pull well over 1.1 G's with the race tires on and zero to sixty was around 6.5 seconds and that was w/o a turbo or opening the engine up. The list of mods went on for three full pages, including a custom cold air box I made with my new found aluminum working skills. I loved that car and really miss it even though I couldn't tell you the last time I drove it.

One of the major problems I had was since that it was technically still street legal and licensed was that I couldn't drive it like a sane person on the road and I don't think there was a time when I would get on the freeway and keep it below 110 +/-. I'm so lucky in more ways than one.

It was always fun going to track events and dusting "super cars" with a Miata. Once at the Carolinas Motor Sports Park a guy offered me his fully race prepped Ferrari after he realized I was going around the course over two seconds quicker than he was. The funny part was he did this right after I stuffed the Miata into a sand pit. That Ferrari was NICE but needed some suspension tuning and the owner needed a LOT of seat time.

Vette owners were the best, they could never figure out how they could get smoked by a lowly Miata. Many of them never figured out that the secret to going fast is never slowing down.

Keep the car, you will sell it when the time is right. Besides, I look at it as an opportunity to build up something else. Either another car or another plane.

Still, I miss the driving instructing though. There is nothing like spinning of a course with a student at the wheel.

 

[gpiney]

Tom,

My preference is still the RV4, but its seemingly more easy to assemble an8 these days, more weight capacity if we get fat while I build over the years, I think they may have higher resell value, and my lady seemed concerned a little about room in the 4....but maybe a ride in the 4 and an 8 would help her or me decide? Hint

The new RV8 -1 fuselage is really fast and easy. Completely matched-hole with new step-by-step instructions. The RV4 is NOT matched-hole. The -8 has the best resale of all the 2-place Vans.

 

[jweaver]

Its kind of the car or the plane per my spouse...and I agree with her (though I wish that I did not have too) because of room and household budget. The car would fetch me the cost of the rv8 kit and give me the garage room to build.

If I had 300 bucks right now and the car was broke and I had a choice of going down to the airport and flying the pitts or fixing the car....id be inverted real quick with a big smile....so im guessing I need to sell the car. Grrrrr

Keep the car, you will sell it when the time is right. Besides, I look at it as an opportunity to build up something else. Either another car or another plane.

Still, I miss the driving instructing though. There is nothing like spinning of a course with a student at the wheel.

 

[lancef53]

I think you can do it for less than the calculator, but like others have said, you have to be ready to take advantage of deals as they appear, not necessarily in the order that you need them.

I am building an 8, and was able to find a complete damaged plane with low time for the price vans lists for a mid time lycoming. At minimum, it will save me 10-15k, and I will have parts to sell when I am done with my build. It also serves as a large motivator to keep the project going.

A great way to start is to buy a kit that the owner lost interest in, lost his medical, or had no time to work on. They seem to appear magically after you order the same thing from vans---don't ask me how I know this.