smokyray

Well Known Member
Guys,
I have been flying the Bandit for 12 years now with a zero incidence horizontal stab. The plans in 89' called for a standard installation of zero but Van later recommended a 1/4" washer underneath the leading edge attach bolts of the horizontal stab for better flying characteristics.
Zero incidence works very well for STOL operations and slows down very well, but another RV4 grandpa told me he picked up 5 knots by adding the washers. He also stated he had better range of forward trim with a back seater. Anybody else had this experience? Curious...

Rob Ray
 
Rob,

When did Van's make the change to the plans? I started my project in 98 and to the best of my memory, it called for zero incidence. Also, if you raise the front of the HS what happens to the VS/HS interface?
 
Wing Incidence

Smokey - when you say zero incidence, with respect to what?

I am in the middle of trying to pluck up courage to drill the rear spar, so this is very timely. I have given up trying to set the wings with the 2.8" block and the canopy longerons at zero. I am having to lift the rear fuse by 1 degree with a plan to set the wing with the 2.8" block and then zero the HS. Otherwise I dont have enough overlap at the rear spar.

Getting everything set together and have the necessary clearance is bothersome to say the least!



.......so with respect to what?

Thanks
 
Builder's transit

Hi Steve,
If you can borrow a builder's transit, the rear spar drilling and very identical incidence of BOTH wings will just about be gauranteed.

We placed the transit about six feet away from the wingtip with the airplane levelled fore/aft and sideways at the canopy rails. Tape a machinists rule to a yardstick where the guy looking through the transit can see it when you hold it on the main spar. Mark it with a fine point magic marker or lead pencil. Add the 2.8" above the mark you just made, move the yardstick to the rear spar and lift/lower the wing trailing edge until the transit operator sees the new mark in the crosshairs and clamp the rear spars with vise grips.

Without moving the transit, go around to the other wing and repeat the procedure. Double check both wings and drill/ream the rear spar, being careful to maintain edge distance. You can also use the transit to level the airplane at the canopy then at the rear deck since it's a straight line.

Regards,
 
i'd like to know about raising the leading edge up too. i've noticed when i fly straight and level i have to put a little down trim to fly level. smokey when you get the answer about raising the leading edge up or try it please keep me informed. i did not build my 4 how much trouble would it be to put the washers under there?

dan carley
rv-4
N2275S
 
I can't give any advice specific to the RV4; however, I can relate my experience with my RV8.
I had a similar problem, in that I noticed the counter weight arms on the elevators were high in normal flight. The elevators were not in trail. Also, the plane seemed like it was tail heavy, especially on landing. I was also using a lot of nose down trim for level flight. The main wing incidence was set correctly according to plans.
After about 50 hours on the tach, I decided to increase the incidence on the horizontal stab. On the -8, the incidence is set with 1/8" spacers. I increased it to a total of 5/32", more than double. Of course this created a domino effect of things to correct. The empennage fairing had to be redone, as did the fairings underneath the horiz stab at the fuselage. Additionally, you need to make adjustment for the spar on the vert stab by either redoing the forward vert stab mount or shimming the spar at the rear to keep it straight.
It was a fair amount of work, but it was worth it with the following results:
The elevator is now in perfect trail at cruise, solo.
Nose down trim is reduced in level flight. (This also allows more nose down trim when carrying passengers.)
Landing characteristics are much nicer. The tail heaviness sensation is gone and I have been able to reduce landing speeds a bit and still keep the tail flying.
I know of at least a couple of other RV8 builders who have done the same on their planes, with the same results.
I'm curious if your elevators are in trail, or down, in normal level cruise.
 
How Much High Steve?

Hi Steve - I'm just curious how much "high" the elevator counterbalances were before you changed the incidence? No ulterior motive - I'm just curious about thye relationship of incidence to elevator trim angle is all....

When I am solo with an overnight bag in the back, my elevators ride dead solid on the horizontal stab - I have always meant to load for a really aft condition, trim for level flight and then take another look - just haven't gotten around to doing it.

Paul
 
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Paul
Obviously, I couldn't get out to make an exact measurement, but looked like about 3/8" high in the cruise regime. That means, I could see about that much of the leading edge of the counterweight showing above the tip. This was verified by friends flying along with me.
 
Another perspective. My first RV3 was built to spec as best as I could and I had to use a fair amount of down trim at higher airspeeds. On the second RV3 I found that the happy spot for this airplane is 180 mph indicated. I then trimmed the horizontal up at the leading edge and offset the vertical at the spar so the airplane flew with all control surfaces in perfect trail and I assume less drag. This was easily confirmed by another rv flying formation and giving me a look over at 180 mph ind. I am very happy with this set up and have plenty of trim control at both ends of the speed range. As I recall the vertical offset was about a 1/4 " at the leadind edge of the vert. Your mileage may vary. :)
Tom
RV3 2000+ hours
 
Stab Incidence

Me too! My RV-4 has about 250hrs, O-360, wood prop, empty CG ~17%MAC. In cruise the elevator horns are deflected above the H.stab. by about 3/8-1/2". I set the stab. as per the plans - 0? ref fuse ref. line.

I too notice I run out of fwd. trim at high speeds in descent, particularly when loaded aft. Also, the elevator stick forces are very high when pushing up from inverted, all which reinforce the idea that I have too much positive longitudinal dihedral as is. Visually, I can not observe any difference in elevator position with CG changes. I intend correcting it by raising the horz. stab. LE by ~1/4", a rule of thumb is to correct the incidence by half the elevator deflection. This will mean new fairings etc, and what do I do about the vertical stab and rudder hinge line?? aaargh!

VH-PIO
 
Boy, you guys sure know how to ruin a fella's day. The thought of having to rebuild that rear fairing is too much to bear. How 'bout if I just promise not to look at the elevator tips while flying?
 
smokyray said:
Guys,
I have been flying the Bandit for 12 years now with a zero incidence horizontal stab. The plans in 89' called for a standard installation of zero but Van later recommended a 1/4" washer underneath the leading edge attach bolts of the horizontal stab for better flying characteristics.
Zero incidence works very well for STOL operations and slows down very well, but another RV4 grandpa told me he picked up 5 knots by adding the washers. He also stated he had better range of forward trim with a back seater. Anybody else had this experience? Curious...

Rob Ray
Hi Rob,
Both of our RV-4s are set with zero incidence on the horizontal stab. We have to use a lot of forward trim when flying with a GIB. I would redo the incidence angles if it would cause the rvs to go 5 mph faster. Now you have me curious....
 
Trim is your friend...

Guys,
I just returned to the Swamp yesterday in the Mighty Bandito with a new pair of my friends "Cheez" Wilson and "Hollywood" Hansens Safe Air One ER tanks (40 gal total). I went non stop from 4F2 (Carthage TX) to the swamp in 4+00 flat. (730 nm). I still had 9 gal when I landed, I love them.

Anyway, while at Hotel Whiskey aviation I queried my RV4 guru buddies Cheez and H-Wood the same incidence question. Cheez has a 180HP Wood prop RV4 and also had the displaced elevator inflight. He shimmed the forward horizontal attach point underneath with 1/4" aluminum shims for larger surface area and cured the problem. He did say it was a pain in the butt as the fairing now wouldn't fit afterward and he almost had to remove the vertical stab to get it to work.

I vote with Steve, I just won't look at it inflight...

My 2 cents!

Rob Ray
RV4's RULE!
 
i think i'll agree with smokey, a lot of work. and i did forget about the fairing. i'm with the no looking back theory.

danny
rv-4
N2275S
 
RV4 under construction

Guys,
I am just completing the canopy and about to start something else, like mounting the horizontal stab. Since I have not drilled any holes yet... should I seriously consider the 1/4 inch spacer adjustment? Would you all put the spacer in if you were in my situation? Be honest with me, I can take it.

Brian from Bainbrige Island, WA
Still spam-canning in my C-172
 
Brian Vickers said:
Guys,
I am just completing the canopy and about to start something else, like mounting the horizontal stab. Since I have not drilled any holes yet... should I seriously consider the 1/4 inch spacer adjustment? Would you all put the spacer in if you were in my situation? Be honest with me, I can take it.
The CG location and cruise IAS will have a significant effect on where the elevator sits in cruise for a given HS incidence. Which engine and prop are you planning? What will your typical cruise altitude be? High altitude cruise means lower IAS, which means elevator more trailing edge up, if everything else is equal.
 
Kevin,
I have a stock O-320 D1A, night VFR, no steam gauges, I weight 155#. I don't usually fly higher than 6,000 to 7,000 feet on cross country along the west coast. I am a little concerned about my CG being aft because my panel glass and minimalist. Shim 1/4"?
 
So where did Van advise the 1/4" washer?

Smokey asserted .
smokyray said:
Guys,
...... The plans in 89' called for a standard installation of zero but Van later recommended a 1/4" washer [or 1/16" spacer] underneath the leading edge attach bolts of the horizontal stab for better flying characteristics.
...

Is this somewhere in writing froom Van? I am in the same position as Brian, I am still building, and before the fairing is done, and the VS attached, it is a fairly easy change to make.

The plans (05/06 vintage) I have, set the wings witha 2.8" block, with the canopy rails at zero, and the HS set parallel with the canopy rails at zero.

An extra 1/16" would change the incidence of the HS wrt the wings by about 0.3 degrees. This seems like a significant amount!

I have forgotten what the theory says about stability when varying the respective incidence, but for this discussion I sure needs an update. Can someone remind us? Kevin?

I sure would like to get to the bottom of this before I go much further.

Thanks,

PS Brian, I dont think they are saying shim 1/4", but with a 1/4" washer, equals 1/16". It is an IMPORTANT detail to be clear on.
 
HS Incidence

My understanding is that in stable upright flight the tailplane has a download on it. A fwd. CG will require a greater tail download, an aft CG less. Our wing aerofoil has a pretty constant pitching moment about it's aerodynamic centre across the usable incidence range, so trim due to wing incidence changes in level flight shouldn't alter much. The further the CG is from the a.c. though, the greater the pitching moment about the CG, and thus will need trim changes with IAS or AoA. If the CG was at the A.c., no trim changes would be needed, thus we're back to the reason why a greater tail download is needed with a fwd. CG. Where was I, oh yeah..

My elevator at cruise (75%, 172KTAS) is deflected down - I see the elevator horn LE about 3/8-1/2" above the horz. stab LE. So the fixed tailplane is providing heaps too much download, and the deflected elevator is unloading the tailplane so I don't loop the loop at cruise! My basic CG is ~17%MAC, loaded up with a more aft CG would need a greater elevator down deflection to further decrease the total tail download. If you use a light engine/prop and few instruments etc, you will have worse 'problem', I believe. I say rig the incidence of the fixed horz. stab up at least 1/8" at it's mounting point, for starters.

Anyone see an error in my appraisal - if so, yell at me.

VH-PIO
O-360-A1A, FP wood prop, no lights or gyros.
260hrs
 
Steve Sampson said:
An extra 1/16" would change the incidence of the HS wrt the wings by about 0.3 degrees. This seems like a significant amount!

I have forgotten what the theory says about stability when varying the respective incidence, but for this discussion I sure needs an update. Can someone remind us? Kevin?
Small changes to the HS incidence will have no effect on stability. Yes, the different HS incidence does change the amount of downwards lift from the HS, but the pilot trims the elevator to whatever angle is required to keep the pitch attitude steady, and the total downwards lift from HS + elevator is unchanged (this is a minor simplification, so please don't quibble about the different length arms to the HS and elevator). This is really not much different than having an aircraft that uses the HS incidence to effect pitch trim (Piper J-3 Cub, Mooneys, many jet transports, etc). I've done high speed manoeuvring stability tests on transport aircraft with moveable incidence stabs at different locations, and the lines of elevator position vs g for the tests at different HS angles are parallel, with the same slope, showing similar stability.

Based on the evidence in this thread, it seems that an RV-4 with O-320 and wood prop might benefit from putting 1/16" spacer under the HS forward spar. If the aircraft has an O-360 with C/S prop, it might be better to not do the spacer. If you've got a Sensenich, then I don't think we have enough data right now to know.
 
Tailplane stall?

Anyone know what the decalage (diff in incidence angle between wing and horz stab) setting is for the RV's? Anyone know what amount of decalage must be maintained to insure full aft cg range? I haven't seen this in my preview plans.

I'd hate to see someone make what they thought was a "small" tailplane incidence change, load up to near aft cg, and then go out and stall the tailplane. I've read that this is bad. :eek:



Ted Johns
RV7 preview plans
 
Decalage

Ted - p8-3 of your preview plans, plus the associated drwgs show the F404 bulkhead inclined at 0.5 degree, with the HS at 0. This controls the wing incidence. I have looked at the wing drawings to see if they have any 'inbuilt' incidence, but I dont think so, though I am far from sure and feel I must be wrong.

If I am correct and the wing incidence is only 0.5 moving the HS by 0.3 appears very significant indeed. Hence my question. I understand Kevin's point, effectively the HS inciidence is what ever you make it, at least that is how I view it.

By that logic though, why ever bother to build in the 0.5 degree in the first place?

I wish I understood this better!
 
Ted Johns said:
Anyone know what the decalage (diff in incidence angle between wing and horz stab) setting is for the RV's? Anyone know what amount of decalage must be maintained to insure full aft cg range? I haven't seen this in my preview plans.

I'd hate to see someone make what they thought was a "small" tailplane incidence change, load up to near aft cg, and then go out and stall the tailplane. I've read that this is bad. :eek:
No worries here for two reasons:
  1. Tail plane stall is only an issue on some aircraft types (Vickers Viscount, DHC Twin Otter, BAE Jetstream 31/32, etc). The service history shows that it is not a problem on RVs. If it were a problem, it would occur at forward CG, not aft CG, as the tail has to produce the most down force at forward CG.
  2. The tail plane is working in the downwash from the wing, so the air it sees is moving downwards. Folks in this thread are talking about moving the leading edge of the HS up. This reduces the AOA that the tail plane sees, making it even less likely to stall.
 
Steve Sampson said:
Ted - p8-3 of your preview plans, plus the associated drwgs show the F404 bulkhead inclined at 0.5 degree, with the HS at 0. This controls the wing incidence. I have looked at the wing drawings to see if they have any 'inbuilt' incidence, but I dont think so, though I am far from sure and feel I must be wrong.

If I am correct and the wing incidence is only 0.5 moving the HS by 0.3 appears very significant indeed. Hence my question. I understand Kevin's point, effectively the HS inciidence is what ever you make it, at least that is how I view it.

By that logic though, why ever bother to build in the 0.5 degree in the first place?

I wish I understood this better!
I suspect that Van designs the wing incidence around typical cruise conditions. In cruise, the wing will be at a certain angle of attack. The angle of the fuselage will depend on the amount of wing incidence. The designer can tailor the amount of wing incidence to try to put the fuselage at the attitude for minimum drag.

There is a range of acceptable HS incidences. If the HS leading edge was set too high, there could be problems with pitch authority in the flare at forward CG. If the HS leading edge were set too low, there could be problems with not enough elevator authority to recover from stalls and spins at aft CG. There should be a wide range of acceptable positions in between these two extremes. Somewhere in this range of acceptable positions there is an incidence value that will give the minimum drag at your typical cruise condition.

Smokey's friend reported a 5 kt speed increase with a 1/16" change in HS front spar height. Frankly I have a hard time understanding how this small change in HS incidence could have that large an effect. My gut tells me to expect maybe 1 or 2 kt, not 5 kt. I would be interested to learn more details of the testing that Smokey's friend did. Were the before and after speeds repeatable? Were any other changes made to the airframe, engine or prop?
 
A kick in the Shims...

I finally found where Van had made a post about the 1/4" washers, it was an old RV8R issue from 92'. Van was right, the shims would correct the displaced elevator but in the article it also stressed that flying qualities changed little. Cheez concurs as it cured his RV4's misalignment but flies the same. He did notice it trims fwd "on the step" slightly better. One way to settle it would be to call Ken Krueger at Vans and get his "company line".
Personally, I don't think it's that big of a deal. My RV4 was perfectly aligned back when I had the 150/wood prop no paint, thin panel setup and cruised at 165 mph. Now with 170hp, MT prop and Landoll balancer + my odessey battery up front and ER tanks I have a fwd CG. I also go alot faster than before (180 mph cruise) and a displaced elevator is evident. The airplane still flies great and even with a back seat passenger I can trim out the fwd pressure at 200 mph.
So, am I going to change? Probably not in this life(I hate glass work). If I was building I would definitely shim it.

My 2 cents...

Rob Ray
(Just completed my 30th 50hr oil change on The Bandit!)
 
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Kevin Horton said:
No worries here for two reasons:
  1. Tail plane stall is only an issue on some aircraft types (Vickers Viscount, DHC Twin Otter, BAE Jetstream 31/32, etc). The service history shows that it is not a problem on RVs. If it were a problem, it would occur at forward CG, not aft CG, as the tail has to produce the most down force at forward CG.
  2. The tail plane is working in the downwash from the wing, so the air it sees is moving downwards. Folks in this thread are talking about moving the leading edge of the HS up. This reduces the AOA that the tail plane sees, making it even less likely to stall.

1) I disagree. Loading past aft cg could cause tailplane stall on most any airplane.

2) I disagree. Moving the leading edge of the tailplane up increases the angle of incidence, and thus AOA, making a tailplane stall more likely.

As aft cg load limit is approached, the tail is required to provide more and more lift. The tail is not providing negative lift in this case, it is providing positive lift. The rule for pitch stability is that the tail must have a lower AOA than the wing. This assures that the wing will stall first, the nose will drop, and positive pitch control can be regained. While the tail may provide negative lift in a forward cg situation, there is no particular rule that the tail always provide negative lift. See www.av8n.com for a more complete explanation.

The detail I'm fuzzy about is what amout of decalage is required for "good" handling in an RV. Guess I'll ask Van's, and or do some more research.
 
Decalage (not to be confused with D?colletage.)

Ted Johns said:
1)
The detail I'm fuzzy about is what amout of decalage is required for "good" handling in an RV. Guess I'll ask Van's, and or do some more research.

Ted - if you speak to VANS could you please post what they say. It is the reduction in the decalage that botherd me from the start though I did not know that was the word! Cheers, Steve.
 
Aircraft with conventional positive camber airfoils, like RVs, have the tail generating downwards lift if the CG is inside the envelope. The positive camber of the airfoil generates a nose down pitching moment that must be countered by the downwards lift from the tail. The tail would only be producing upwards lift if the CG was so far aft that the aircraft would no longer have positive static longitudinal stability. Please note that the above statements are not true for many high performance sailplanes, which have airfoils that are specifically designed such that the tail may be producing upwards lift, all in an effort to reduce drag.

So, given that the tail is generating downwards lift, if the CG is inside the recommended envelope, the question is which conditions require it to produce the most downwards lift. The condition where the tail would have to produce the most downwards lift is forward CG, full flap, and high speed (i.e. max allowable speed for flaps extended). This is where tail plane stall would be most likely to occur, if the aircraft was prone to this condition. Please note that most aircraft are not prone to tail plane stall, if the CG is inside the approved envelope, and the pilot respects the max speed for flaps extended.

I know one of the NASA test pilots involved in their tail plane stall research on the Twin Otter, and their results support my statements that the worst case is forward CG, max flap and high speed. These are also the specific conditions that are tested during type certification flight testing.
 
Kevin - thanks for that last post. Yes a lot of my confusion is because most of my flying experience is high performance gliders (sailplanes) where indeed we were trying to get the HS to a neutral (min drag) situation. [Much of the rest is in a Supercub with a jacking HS leading edge!]

What I dont understand is why the handling does not change massively when the aircraft enters a gust depending on the incidence of the HS. The plans from memory set the wing with half a degree of incidence wrt the HS. Smokey's washer would reduce this (I think) by 1/3rd degree to 1/6th deg of relative incidence.

I take your point that in fact the empenage incidence is controlled by the hand holding the stick. So in that case why does the incidence matter?
Can yo usee my confusion? Sorry to have so many questions but if you can untangle my thinking I (and I think others) would be grateful.
Cheers.
 
Steve Sampson said:
What I dont understand is why the handling does not change massively when the aircraft enters a gust depending on the incidence of the HS.
Let's imagine two identical aircraft, except aircraft #1 has no spacer under the HS front spar, and aircraft #2 has a 1/16" thick spacer under the HS front spar. Both have the same weight and CG. These two aircraft are flying side-by-side in formation. Each pilot uses the trim to zero out the stick forces.

Both aircraft have the same wing design, and they are going the same speed, so the nose down moment from the wing is the same on each aircraft. The CG is ahead of the centre of lift of the wing, so the weight is also producing a nose down pitching moment that must be countered by the tail. Both aircraft have the same weight and CG, so the nose down moment from the weight is the same. The tail on each aircraft must generate the same amount of nose up pitching moment to counter the nose down moments from the wing and the weight.

The HS on the two aircraft are at different angles, but the pilot puts the elevator at the angle it needs to keep the aircraft steady, and he then uses trim to zero out the stick forces. The result is that while the elevator on aircraft #1 has its trailing edge further down than the one on aircraft #2, the nose up pitching moment generated by the HS + elevator on the two aircraft are identical.

Now, imagine that the two aircraft fly into a vertical gust. This changes the angle of attack of both the wing and the tail. The amount of lift change on the wing and the tail is proportional to the amount of the change in angle of attack. Both aircraft see the same change in angle of attack, so the change in lift on the wing and tail of the two aircraft are identical. Thus the two aircraft have identical response to the gust.

Steve Sampson said:
I take your point that in fact the empenage incidence is controlled by the hand holding the stick. So in that case why does the incidence matter?
The HS incidence is fixed, but the elevator angle is controlled by the pilot.

If the HS incidence is within a reasonable range small changes probably don't matter, in the big picture. The elevator deflection needed for any given flight condition will depend on the HS incidence. For each flight condition, there will be a "magic" HS incidence that will result in zero elevator angle, and thus the minimum drag.

If we did a series of flight tests with different HS incidence settings, we would see the following results:

If we put spacers under the HS front spar, for any given flight condition the elevator would be more trailing edge up. This will require the trim tab to be more trailing edge down. There will be some minimum speed at which the trim will reach full travel. This minimum speed will increase as the HS incidence increases. We can still fly slower than this, but we'll have to hold aft stick force. If we keep putting thicker and thicker spacers under the HS front spar, eventually we'll reach a point where we don't have enough up elevator left to properly flare the aircraft at forward CG.

If we could lower the HS front spar, we would find that at high speed the elevator would need to be more trailing edge down, and the trim tab would need to be trailing edge up. There would be some maximum speed at which we would run out of trim. We could still fly faster, but we would need to hold forward stick. The maximum speed at which we could trim would decrease as we lowered the HS front spar. We could address this by reworking the trim system, to change the range of angles that the tab could move through. If we did stall and spin flight tests at aft CG we would find that the ability to push the nose down would be degraded as we lowered the HS front spar. At some point, if the HS front spar was lowered far enough, we would have problems with stall and/or spin recovery.

I have described handling problems that could occur if the HS incidence was changed too much. But, there should be a fairly large range between those two extreme HS incidence angles. Any HS setting in between those limits should result in acceptable handling, but it may be necessary to change the range of motion of the trim tab to optimize the range of conditions where the aircraft can be trimmed.
 
Kevin Horton said:
Aircraft with conventional positive camber airfoils, like RVs, have the tail generating downwards lift if the CG is inside the envelope.
......


I agree that RV's could be designed to always have downforce from the tail. They don't have to be , though. It would lose a bit of efficiency to always have downforce. I haven't been able to find out if this is the norm for GA aircraft.

I did find this from whitt's flying:
" Icing of the tail can result in total loss of control. I think that most turbo-props are operated with the c. g. behind the aerodynamic center of the wing, so that loss of control of the stabilizer causes the airplane to pitch up, eventually beyond maximum lift, and without the tail to counter the pitch up, the situation becomes unrecoverable."

If the cg is aft of the wings center of lift, the tail must be providing lift.

Ted Johns
RV7 plans preview
 
Ted Johns said:
I did find this from whitt's flying:
" Icing of the tail can result in total loss of control. I think that most turbo-props are operated with the c. g. behind the aerodynamic center of the wing, so that loss of control of the stabilizer causes the airplane to pitch up, eventually beyond maximum lift, and without the tail to counter the pitch up, the situation becomes unrecoverable."

If the cg is aft of the wings center of lift, the tail must be providing lift.
Well, I don't know who Whitt is, but it would be useful if he could provide some substantiation for that strange statement. There is nothing about hanging a turbo-prop on an aircraft that changes the laws of physics. It is has a conventional positive cambered airfoil, as most of them do, the wing will be producing a nose down pitching moment. The CG can only go so far aft before the static longitudinal stability becomes too low. The result is the tail is producing downwards lift.

You can see the effect of this on stall speed. The wing has to develop lift = aircraft weight + amount of downwards lift from the tail. The further forward the CG is, the more lift the wing has to develop, even if the weight is unchanged. On transport aircraft, flight test results show the stall speed at aft CG is perhaps 5 kt lower than the stall speed at forward CG. This would not be true if the tail was producing upwards lift.

Have a look at the following:
http://uk.share.geocities.com/[email protected]/Tailplane_stall.pdf
FAA AC 23.143-1 - see Appendices A and B
Vickers Viscount crash report - aircraft pitched down due to stabilizer stall.
NTSB analysis of two Jetstream 31 accidents - they note sudden pitch down due probable tail plane stall

I'm not aware of any civil powered aircraft that would be expected to pitch up following tail plane stall, if the CG is in the approved range. All the tail plane stall flight testing that I have done, or am aware of, was investigating the possibility of sudden pitch down due to tail plane stall. The emphasis on pitch down was based on wind tunnel and engineering analysis.
 
Kevin Horton said:
Well, I don't know who Whitt is, but it would be useful if he could provide some substantiation for that strange statement. There is nothing about hanging a turbo-prop on an aircraft that changes the laws of physics. It is has a conventional positive cambered airfoil, as most of them do, the wing will be producing a nose down pitching moment. The CG can only go so far aft before the static longitudinal stability becomes too low. The result is the tail is producing downwards lift.

You can see the effect of this on stall speed. The wing has to develop lift = aircraft weight + amount of downwards lift from the tail. The further forward the CG is, the more lift the wing has to develop, even if the weight is unchanged. On transport aircraft, flight test results show the stall speed at aft CG is perhaps 5 kt lower than the stall speed at forward CG. This would not be true if the tail was producing upwards lift.

Have a look at the following:
http://uk.share.geocities.com/[email protected]/Tailplane_stall.pdf
FAA AC 23.143-1 - see Appendices A and B
Vickers Viscount crash report - aircraft pitched down due to stabilizer stall.
NTSB analysis of two Jetstream 31 accidents - they note sudden pitch down due probable tail plane stall

I'm not aware of any civil powered aircraft that would be expected to pitch up following tail plane stall, if the CG is in the approved range. All the tail plane stall flight testing that I have done, or am aware of, was investigating the possibility of sudden pitch down due to tail plane stall. The emphasis on pitch down was based on wind tunnel and engineering analysis.

See whittsflying.com. I'm not claiming he is a design authority (nor am I).

Not sure why you keep mentioning "positive cambered airfoil". As far as I know, this is just an issue of whether or not the aircraft designer allows the cg to go aft of the center of lift. As long as the tail has a lower AOA (by x.x%) the aircraft is stable.

"On transport aircraft, flight test results show the stall speed at aft CG is perhaps 5 kt lower than the stall speed at forward CG. This would not be true if the tail was producing upwards lift."

Of course it would. There's no difference between the tail providing a lot of negative lift a forward cg and a little negative lift at aft cg, v.s. a little negative lift at forward cg and a little positive lift at aft cg. The stall speed still decreases at aft cg just the same.


Ted Johns
RV7 preview plans
 
maybe this will clear it up

http://selair.selkirk.bc.ca/aerodynamics1/Stability/Page7.html


AOA of the tail vs. the wing really only affects the effeciency of the airplane in a given configuration (airspeed, cg etc...). Yes, it affects other things too but we're not talking huge AOA changes here...little itty bitty changes.

For positive chamber wings, stability has everything to do with aerodynamic center and CG. If the cg behind the aerodynamic center, the wing will be unstable.

It's been a while but I believe this is true.
 
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Ted Johns said:
Not sure why you keep mentioning "positive cambered airfoil". As far as I know, this is just an issue of whether or not the aircraft designer allows the cg to go aft of the center of lift. As long as the tail has a lower AOA (by x.x%) the aircraft is stable.
You say "whether or not the aircraft designer allows the cg to go aft of the center of lift". Well, the designer doesn't get to modify the laws of physics. The major determinates as to how far aft the CG can go are the wing camber, the distance between the wing and the tail and the relative size of the wing and tail. Designers generally don't want to make the tail too big, as that means more weight and drag. They generally don't want to make the aft fuselage longer for the same reasons.

I keep mentioning positive cambered airfoil because the airfoil camber has a significant effect in determining how far aft the CG may go and still have acceptable static longitudinal stability. And the location of the most aft possible CG will largely decide whether the tail lift is up or down. And this in turn will help decide at which CG the tail plane is most likely to stall.

If an aircraft is to have positive static longitudinal stability, it must be designed such that if the angle of attack is increased, a nose down pitching moment is created. This nose down pitching moment tends to cause the angle of attack to decrease, thus helping return towards the original condition. I.e. there is positive static stability.

The various parts of the aircraft each contribute to the pitching moment that is created when we change the angle of attack. The horizontal tail has a stabilizing influence. The engine power may have a stabilizing or destabilizing influence, depending on how high the thrust line is. A nose-mounted propeller has a destabilizing influence. The fuselage generally has a destabilizing influence. The weight of the aircraft has a stabilizing influence if the CG is forward of the aircraft's centre of lift, and a destabilizing influence if it is aft of the centre of lift. The influence of the wing is largely determined by its camber. A positively cambered wing has a destabilizing influence on the stability, and a negatively cambered wing has a stabilizing influence on stability. If we sum up the contributions of all the components of the aircraft, we find that the CG can be further aft if we have a negatively cambered wing than if we have a positively cambered wing.

Designers generally chose a positively cambered wing, as they have a higher maximum lift, which allows a smaller, lighter wing. The result is that for most aircraft, at most CG locations, the tail is producing downwards lift. It is possible on some aircraft at the most aft allowable CG that the tail could be producing upwards lift. But, in this case, it would be producing such a small amount of lift that it would be pretty much impossible to stall it. Stalls happen when airfoils are working hard, not when they are coasting along doing next to nothing. Tails are working the hardest at forward CG, with full flap, at VFE (the wing's nose down pitching moment goes up as the speed increases, so the tail must produce more downwards lift to counter it).

I wish I could find a reputable online reference on this stuff. Everything I can find is either too simple, or it is part of an aeronautical engineering text (i.e. too many formulae). We need something like one of my test pilot school texts, but it isn't available online, and it would be in French anyway, so it probably wouldn't do us much good.

Ted Johns said:
"On transport aircraft, flight test results show the stall speed at aft CG is perhaps 5 kt lower than the stall speed at forward CG. This would not be true if the tail was producing upwards lift."

Of course it would. There's no difference between the tail providing a lot of negative lift a forward cg and a little negative lift at aft cg, v.s. a little negative lift at forward cg and a little positive lift at aft cg. The stall speed still decreases at aft cg just the same.
Duh. You are 100% correct. I need to start drinking better coffee :).
 
Interesting info, Kevin. Thanks. And I agree that designers don't get to modify the laws of physics. :rolleyes:

www.av8n.com has lots of good basic education on aerodynamic principles. Unfortunately, it doesn't go into detail about various wing cambers, or other nuances. I'd also be interested in a primer that went into some detail, but allowed me to keep the calculus books on the shelf, where they belong. :eek:


Ted Johns
RV7 plans preview
 
Pure Genius...

I am constantly amazed by the level of intelligence displayed by members of this forum. Every time I strap on my RV4 or climb in the F16 I am awed by the fact that somebody had to sit down, take pen to paper (or knapkin in the F16's case)and come up with a cool, usuable and utilitarian design. (ok here it comes, sts)
With that said, my dream of designing my own RR-1 would require some of that genius. My idea is to build a high wing RV4, almost identical dimensions with a cantilever RV wing and tandem cockpit. A bit like a smaller, sexier 2 seat BD-4 for patrol/bush work. Why? Why not?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated...

Rob Ray
 
Great idea

Hi Smoky,
I think it's a great idea. I'd use the -9 wing and center section for shorter takeoffs and landings. A pair of tundra tires and a 180 C/S would be quite a machine. I dont think there'd be much difficulty in getting a fuselage designed or maybe a -4 beefed up to be a high wing. I don't see why the empennage couldn't be used off the -9 either.
Regards,
 
Smokey - the weak link on the -4 from my research is the U/c. So perhaps make it a bit more like the -8, Van did.)

I look forward to it. Steve.
 
RV-4 gats a Bad rap!

After flying my -4 for a couple of years it is very obvious that the -4 gets a bad rap for it?s supposed week landing gear system, I?ve made my share of bad landings and I can tell you that a bad landing will not damage a -4 the guys that have bent there -4s have definitely crashed there planes, it may have rolled away from the seen but still more of a crash then a landing! It?s not a C-150, you can?t stall it 20? up and not bend it but beyond that it?s pretty tuff.

Not saying he should use this gear on a high wing but on the -4 it is very suitable.

Russ
 
The Genius within...

I have always considered the Steve Wittman landing gear on both the RV4 and -8 to be pure genius. Cessna agreed, they paid Steve, patented both the spring steel leaf and tubular gear and have used it for 50 years. I think it is plenty strong, at least as much or better than Super Cub gear and much simpler.
The RR1 will look more like a metal tandem seat Tailwind than a BD4 with RV4 empennage and wings. The -9 wing would work great, but I want Aerobatic capabilities too. I guess my RV4 is perfect for my requirements, that's why I love it just the way it is. However comma, the RR1 would truly be my original goal, the 180 mph Super Cub.

Rob Ray