SteelMike

Well Known Member
Umm... So I know everyone hates a newbie, but I've got some general questions. If you'll suffer a newbie like myself, I'd really appreciate it. I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on a -7 and need some start up questions. Some of these are way down the line, but for now, it's just curiosity's sake...

1. Engines: Could they make this more confusing? I'm thinking 360-something-or-the-other. But what is the difference between IO, O, A1A, B2B, Horizonally induced vs. Vertically induced. Huh?!? Check out Lycoming's site herehere and see the 500 different versions of the 360. What's the difference between all those models?

2. Tools. Got it. Avery tool kits with the 3x gun... But what about power tools. Air compressor (duh), bench grinder, drill press, dremel, band saw? What else?

3. Dan C's website makes this fantastic point about QB vs. Slow Build - that if you don't build it yourself, are you comfortable maintaining it? Can anyone weigh in on this? All things being equal, I'd probably go QB even in spite of the cost difference, but this point makes me a little wary of not doing all the work myself just so I know the airframe that much better.

Oh, and I don't even know where to start on avionics. Is there a good resource out there to learn what's available? All the acronyms and model types/part numbers just looks like gobledy-gook to me.

Many thanks for entertaining this newb's questions..
mb
 
Howdy

Hi Mike,

we were all newbies once, and some of us still are! Me? I'm really, really, REALLY stuggling to get my head around the electrical and wiring. I just don't get it; I'm makingheadway though, by thinking of just one part of the circuit at a time.

Anyway, to your questions.

1. Engine; can't help too much there I'm afraid, but I can tell you that you don't need to give it much thought up front. I'm 2? years into a slow build -8 and the main fuse structure is done. I only needed to consider the engine when I ordered the finish kit and had to specify the engine mount & cowl. You can afford to research that more later.

2. Tools. Yep, the Avery kit is good. Over the build I now have more than double the recommended 2/32" and 1/8" clecos and 1/2" and 1" cleco sidegrips. Also have a DRDT-2 dimpler which is way better than the Avery C-frame. Love my pneumatic squeezer and 90 deg air drill too (not the Avery 90 deg adapter, but a whole other drill). I've managed to get away without a band saw, though occasionally I wish I had one. Air compressor, drill press, bench grinder, dremel. Yep, yep, yep and yep. I don't have much else in the way of power tools. Oh, I have a couple of cordless drill/screwdrivers which come in useful occasionally.

3. I went slow build, though it was mostly a money question. I'm glad I did; I've done plenty of modifications that would have been a whole lot trickier in QB. I confess to not building my own tanks. I had Evans Aviation do them for me with the flop tubes and capacitive senders. Once I'd got as far with the wings that I needed the tanks I was pretty confident I could have down them after all. Ah well...

4. Avionics? OH MY GOD!! What a minefield. Good luck with that. There is lots of personal opinion out there so check the specs/features/price and make up your own mind. My latest (revision 6?) plan is AFS Advanced Deck, Garmin 495 GPS, Garmin SL30, Garmin GTX330, PMA-9000EX with some 2?" backup guages (airspeed, altimeter, VSI, turn/slip).

Don't worry about much of this stuff. I'm not yet a pilot, or an aircraft engineer for that matter, and frankly the learning curve has sometimes been, shall we say, steep! But you tackle it one small part at a time and gradually understanding builds and it begins to fall into place. Its a wild ride and a great adventure. Come on board! :)
 
You'all need too read some more

Mike
You are not a newbie any more! May not have read every thing but not a newbie. Now that you have riveted some of your brains out your getting there.
1. Engines - They can make or break you. I'm a lover of big engines but you don't have to run them at full tilt. The web has spec sheets on standard Lycoming engines and a goggle of rebuilt engines. There is an old saying that goes - what turns the shaft usally gets it! For a model how about an IO390. This is an IO360 bored out. Same size and weight of the IO360. Over the IO320 it is only about an inch wider and costs only 1000 dollars more. Many times if you find an engine to buy it's because no body else wants to. Dyafocal 1 vs 2 is an example. Fell free to ask first. After you learn some more about engines you'll find you need to know more.
PS I have only dyno run engines from less than 1 hp to ones that had more than 5000 hp. Gasoline , diesel , gaseous fuel , 2 strokes , 4 strokes , turbocharged , and intercooled.
Knowledge is power and power is money.

More on 2-4 later
 
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Suggestions

Hey Mike.
I was similar to you not that long ago. Not a pilot and not a builder. Both have changed and i have learned lots and got my wings. Been a pile of learning but loved it all.
Here is my opinion for what its worth.
Tools, call avery, tell em what you are building and get the full kit they suggest. They will suggest the extra cleco's the pneumatic squeezer etc. Over the build you may need a few more drill bits, maybe another cut off wheel, and a few cheap things that i would just get at harbour freight or home depot. Cheap drill press, bench grinder, die grinder and band saw can all be borrowed for the times you use them or bought for $500 total, your choice. I went with the basic dimpler and have never had an issue, or wished i spent the extra.
Engine, i started dreaming of an egg suburu cause they looked great and made sense. Almost bought a new one from a divorce on Ebay. WOW, as i learned and read and talked to builders i saw the errors of my ways. I will due to my limited knowledge on this go tried and true and use one the the very well respected builders and the engine vans recommends for my plane io 320. Mattituck or Aerosport will answer any questions. It is confusing, mags, pmags, laser, blah blah. You have lots of time to learn this. Smart folks here will help you with any questions.
Dan c, Smitty, Mike Schipper, jeffs rv, etc etc all have incredible build logs that if you spend a few afternoons looking ahead on your build...you will learn a ton and speed up the build as you see what comes together and how.
Quick build or slow. Well, i am more interested in flying and i have a great wife and two kids. I decided i would rather be out the extra money and have extra time with my family, or be finished a year or more earlier...i went qb and would do it again in a minute.
Avionics etc. Here is my humble opinion. Engine, avionics, lights and interiors are changing fast. I am on my finish kit, and have not made any decisions. I am getting close and will order the prop, fwf and engine at osh. The issue is that i love the new stuff and as an example Dynon, AFS and MGL have incredible tech at pretty fair prices. Folks that have the avionics 3 years before they fly, paid way more and dont have state of the art. Get building and enjoy learning and watching advances before you pull the trigger. I know whatever i go with will be outdated too, but, if i can get an excellent led light package that looks great, uses less juice and lasts way longer than the standard vans package that has been used forever and is still crazy expensive...that is what works for me.
Get building and enjoy. Lots to learn and lots to spend.
 
No, we absolutely don't...

......hate newbies...we love 'em!:) Mike, you really, really need to go find an active EAA chapter, hang out with the guys, look at any kind of project and make friends there. You'll see and learn more about engine choices, rivetting, avionics and wiring than you can imagine. Oh, and join EAA since their monthly magazine has a ton of good info about any aspect you have a question about.

Again, welcome,
 
I second what Pierre said ...

and at 14 years into the project I still feel like a noob on some things. Ron Wanttaja has written a couple of great intro books, Kitplane Construction and Aircraft Ownership that will help get you started. Also, get hold of the complete set of Tony Bingelis books; you'll find info on tools, techniques, and even about choosing an engine. Engine choice and avionics are probably the most difficult and individual decisions you'll make; no two aircraft are exactly alike. You can start by deciding what kind of flying you want to do and what equipment you like to work with. No use building a glass panel if you prefer steam gauges, and so on ...

One last thing. The best way to get advice from this or any forum is to start out by saying "I'm thinking of trying it this way ..." You'll be flooded with replies telling you why you shouldn't and testimonials on why your idea is the greatest. Not that we're an opinionated bunch ... ;)
 
Awesome. Thanks guys. I'm actually on my way to the EAA local chapter meeting in about an hour. We'll see what I find.
 
Just a preference

But I like the 2X gun...As its the only one I've used but it has plaenty of driving power.

I personally think there is plenty of experience to be gained on a QB kit...about 1000hours to be honest!

Frank
 
Eventually, this stuff will start to sink in. Don't get overwhelmed - take things a step at a time and it will soon start to make sense.
 
Let me address a few Qs

Umm... So I know everyone hates a newbie,

Nope. Like Pierre said. We were all there once.

1. Engines: Could they make this more confusing? I'm thinking 360-something-or-the-other. But what is the difference between IO, O, A1A, B2B, Horizonally induced vs. Vertically induced. Huh?!? What's the difference between all those models?

I dont know all the answers here, from the front, I=injected. (If no I, assume carb.) O= opposed. This means the cylinders are opposite each other, not a V, inline, or radial. There are other configs, but you will probably only see them in a museum. 360=cubic inches of displacement.

The suffix letter/numbers refer to a host of things, mostly accessories, or optional configurations of the basic engine------constant speed prop for one.

Horizontal or Vertical inductions-------does the intake hook up to the bottom or the front or rear of the oil pan???? This was often done to make the engine fit into the cowling shape. Some configurations have other attributes ------most notable front facing allows a small bit more air flow from "Ram" effect, thus making a bit more power.Most opposed aircraft engines run the intake manifold integral to the oil pan, to keep the intake charge warm. This promotes better fuel vaporization (carb), and reduces intake icing a small bit due to conducted heat. But, it costs HP. There are "cold air" inductions available, but they are more prone to ice up------thus usually only seen on injected engines. "Cold air" induction pretty common on race planes. They are starting to get popular in high perf sport planes.

But what about power tools. Air compressor (duh), bench grinder, drill press, dremel, band saw? What else?

All of the above are pretty much necessary, except the Dremel. I tend to buy tools as I need them--------:D, never have tooooo many tools.

Get a good compressor, drill press, and band saw. You will thank me in 10 years. I'll wait.

3. Dan C's website makes this fantastic point about QB vs. Slow Build - that if you don't build it yourself, are you comfortable maintaining it? Can anyone weigh in on this? All things being equal, I'd probably go QB even in spite of the cost difference, but this point makes me a little wary of not doing all the work myself just so I know the airframe that much better.

I am comfortable with the QB, but you need to decide what will make you comfortable. There is still plenty to do with a QB, plus you will have the full plans------there is no separate QB plans.

Oh, and I don't even know where to start on avionics. Is there a good resource out there to learn what's available? All the acronyms and model types/part numbers just looks like gobledy-gook to me.

Real simple-----Dont start on the avionics. Things change way too fast to make any decisions at this time. Build, learn, keep asking questions. About the only avionics considerations I would suggest at this time, is ----glass, yes or no.

If Yes, wait until you are ready for the stuff. When you go to buy, it will not be the same as it is today.

Many thanks for entertaining this newb's questions..
mb

You are more than welcome, just hope I was able to help a bit. I intentionally didnt go too deep into things, just trying to give a bit of info that you can use.
 
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Man... I really don't want to be pegged as "that guy" with a bad attitude, but I went to the local EAA chapter meeting this morning and I'm really frustrated (read: pissed). What did I learn, you ask?

1. Most projects never get finished (9 in 10). Likely any project I take up will never get finished.
2. Even if I do finish, there may be no engine to put into my plane because Lycoming quit making them. (huh?)
3. Even if you find an engine, airports are disappearing off the map purchased up by developers. There's legitimate, current, ongoing threats to this EAA chapter's field. I may have no place to fly.
4. My rivets will likely never be airworthy.
5. I need to fly to Vans to inspect their facility and learn about construction.
6. I need to fly to Oshkosh to see what's happening in homebuilts and stay there for the week taking classes.
7. I have to fly to some class on the East Coast to learn how to build (or my rivets will stink).
8. The real cost of aviation limits access to the sport to all but the very rich - even if you don't go broke building the thing, you will maintaining, insuring (if you can even get insurance), hangaring, and fueling the thing.
9. I need to make all the decisions about avionics and engine today or I'll get lost in the project.
10. Ultimately, don't bother. If I really must do it, it was suggested, just buy a certified plane (no, I'm not kidding).

I don't even want to continue. I will admit that most of the guys were friendly, one even had some positive words, and one even offered to help on the project. But what the hell? This "sport" is hard-friggin'-enough to get in to as it is.

Grrr...

Ahhh... ****. I guess I should just buck-up. I don't need a cheerleeding squad to get through this.

And after all of that...

I will be getting a new screenname.
 
Whoa - Mike S, didn't even see your reply before I posted my rant. Thanks so much. That one post was more helpful than... you get the drift.

More than anything, it's encouraging to see that there really is a community that is vibrant and helpful out there... just maybe not where I've been looking.
 
Lycoming

Lycoming has a publication called directory of certificated engines. Takes you through all the changes from the very first model of each engine, in the back it gives a list of all the certificated aircraft a particular model was used in. Available from factory I think around $20.
 
Whoa - Mike S, didn't even see your reply before I posted my rant. Thanks so much. That one post was more helpful than... you get the drift.

Thanks.

More than anything, it's encouraging to see that there really is a community that is vibrant and helpful out there...

You are so correct!!!

You might take a look here, http://www.eaa.org/chapters/locator/ there may be more than one chapter that is close to your area. If you didnt feel good about the first one, try again------EAAers are a pretty good bunch.
 
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A student of RV Aviation...

I started working on my pilot's license a few months before 9/11 and was ready to buy my tail kit for an RV-7 around the same time after drooling over the preview plans for a few months. In my case, I was a slightly educated newbie, at the time, with influence from some friends in my RC Plane club that flew "full scale".

I had the check for the tail kit in the envelope on my desk when in early '02 my career derailed when my company gutted 50% of the research division. I won't mention any names but the name started with an A and ended with two T's.

Back then, I learned about the RV Community on the Matronics list and eagerly consumed every new entry on the linked builder's sites on the Van's page. The internet was the best thing that ever happened to the RV community in my opinion. My research on all the cool techniqes, great tips, mods, and general info was grabbed from the internet and the best tidbits that applied to me and my build went into a 3-ring binder. My binder was indexed with tabs for each kit phase, and tabs for all the mods like electric rudder trim, etc.

Now that my career is getting back on its feet again, the extra time of research will pay off. Instead of being upset in putting my plans on hold, technology has advanced, avionics have become better, and new models have come out like the RV-10. Much of my research back then still applies, and the time I was away from flying gave me more time to learn.

While I'm not suggesting you research things to death, I am suggesting you start creating a research index of everything you are considering on your build. Now, instead of using my 3-ring binder and an inkjet printer, my research "binder" is Microsoft OneNote. I have tabs for parking brakes, oil doors, interiors, seats, consoles, avionics, paint, panels, etc. The great part is I can capture in screen snips, and it automatically creates a link under each snip for the source. It's great.

I finally found an EAA chapter nearby, and I even had a chance to see an RV being built. If you have a chance, visit a builder and make a walk around visit. When I called him to make arrangements to visit, he told me to bring a set of hearing protection and a smile. Along with a couple italian subs and a six pack, I stopped by and was welcomed like never before. After he showed me how the rivet gun worked and let me play with some scraps and some rivets, he and I bucked a row of rivets. I was amazed and hooked. If it wasn't for the first EAA meeting, I would never have a chance to learn like that.

It's not just a kitplane, it's an adventure.... and a community...

Enjoy the journey and the trip!
 
I don't know anyone who hates newbies, so welcome to the club!.

For anyone starting out, as one person recommended, find your nearest EAA chapter. Also, check the RV White Pages link on the VAF home page & find RV builders near you, especially if your EAA chapter isn't very helpful--that's what Mike S needs to do.

And just a couple comments about QB vs. SB: QB workmanship is better than yours is likely to be and you won't be replacing ruined parts--a hidden cost of the SB's unless you are skilled, lucky or perfect. I did the SB wings and got the QB fuselage and there is nothing on the fuselage that I couldn't have done, so I am not concerned about knowing every part that went into it.
 
especially if your EAA chapter isn't very helpful--that's what Mike S needs to do.


Uhmmmmmmmm, Richard, I think you got a bit confused here.

Wrong Mike:eek:

SteelMike, who started this thread is the one having problems with a chapter.

Our chapter, http://www.hangtowneaa512.org/ is fairly active with homebuilts, and quite friendly, (just in case there are any lurkers out there who might want to come by.):D
 
Jeez, Mike, I'm really sorry that you had such an experience with the locals. Maybe, with luck, you can be a force of change so that others following in your footsteps will have a better experience. More on that later.

1. Most projects never get finished (9 in 10). Likely any project I take up will never get finished.
It's true that a lot of projects languish due to insufficient funds, interest, etc. That said, there are thousands of flying homebuilts, many of them RVs. Some people finish their projects quickly; I've been at mine since 1994 and I'll be finishing in a couple of months. Only you can gauge your level of commitment but determined people finish their projects all the time. Be one of them.
2. Even if I do finish, there may be no engine to put into my plane because Lycoming quit making them. (huh?)
WTF? I never heard this and I'm sure it would be a surprise to Lycoming, too. Not only that, but there are clones (my RV-6A will have a Superior IO-360 that I built myself at their facility) and alternative engines available.
3. Even if you find an engine, airports are disappearing off the map purchased up by developers. There's legitimate, current, ongoing threats to this EAA chapter's field. I may have no place to fly.
You'll have a place to fly. Some airports do close. Hangar space can be difficult to find and afford. I was told that most people locally go to airports up to an hour away and often do their final assembly and initial testing several hours away near Phoenix. When I went to the local airport, it took me two months on the list to get my hangar. At about that time, the airport got a new manager who's been very favorable to GA, largely due to the efforts of local pilots. And the local EAA chapter has not been very big; fortunately the EAA is not the only force in GA. We're trying to improve, though.
4. My rivets will likely never be airworthy.
Ok, I'm coming back to the "force for change" thing. I learned to rivet on my tail kit. At that time, there was no Alexander's or practice kits or the like. An A&P IA from the cargo airline I worked at came to my place and taught me to shoot rivets. Naturally I dinged a few but he said they'd be alright. I proceeded, pretty much on my own. Eventually, I got the airframe into a hangar (this was after a couple of moves) and decided it was time to get a tech counselor to look at it. The local guy is something of an institution (I found out later) and told me that my work would never pass. When pressed, he admitted it was safe, just not pretty enough for commercial work. After recovering from my initial shock, I got opinions from A&Ps I knew, other builders, even a DAR who was inspecting a friend's propjet. Essentially, I got an old fart with an axe to grind; everyone else thought the project was just fine. So my friend with the Lancair and I have decided to apply to be Tech Counselors so that other builders in the area won't have to go to this guy. By the way, my riveting has gotten much better, but I still have the occasional "oops".
5. I need to fly to Vans to inspect their facility and learn about construction.
It's a fun thing to do but "need" is rather strong. Order the info video and find some local builders to teach you about construction.
6. I need to fly to Oshkosh to see what's happening in homebuilts and stay there for the week taking classes.
Another fun thing to do, but again not necessary. A rather famous RVer had to build his RV before he was able to get to OSH. I'm referring to Jon Johannson, the Australian who has flown his RV around the world a couple of times. By the way, when the nay-sayers get you down it wouldn't hurt to read his book. All along he was told "You can't ..." and "You'll never be able..." - not just about the RV but about his schooling and his career as a male nurse - and he just put his head down and did it anyway.
7. I have to fly to some class on the East Coast to learn how to build (or my rivets will stink).
Yes, the only good riveting classes are on the right coast. Seriously, what? Yes, those classes are helpful but there are other ways and places to learn to rivet.
8. The real cost of aviation limits access to the sport to all but the very rich - even if you don't go broke building the thing, you will maintaining, insuring (if you can even get insurance), hangaring, and fueling the thing.
Hmmm. This one's a hard one to answer. Not because it's right but there are nuances. First, show me a hobby that isn't expensive. I think I've been spending about as much per year on the RV that I used to spend on competition R/C sailplanes. At least I'll eventually get to ride in the RV. But aviation can be expensive. Again, only you can evaluate your (financial) commitment to the project. I can only tell you that I don't mind the dollars I spend on my RV; the rewards of building are worth it. And I haven't even flown it yet. And I'm already looking forward to my next one (an RV-10, I think). I was a $40k computer programmer with a wife in med school when I started; I planned on a simple IFR panel and a rebuilt engine. What slowed me down was a lack of building space until we got settled in Flagstaff; by that time the wife was a doc and I was able to change my plans to a new engine and glass panel. But I'm still pinching pennies; we've got a mortgage and student loans to pay (plus, I've gone back to school) - no way could I afford a commercially built new aircraft. All I can say is, if you desire to do a thing you will find a way to finance it.
9. I need to make all the decisions about avionics and engine today or I'll get lost in the project.
That's handy, but if your project takes a long time (like mine) then your situation may change. The best advice I wish I'd been given before it was too late is to plan for the most elaborate setup possible. If you plan for full night IFR, you will put in the wiring routes (conduit) and antenna locations, access for equipment mounts, etc. That doesn't mean you actually have to install all that. In fact, you could equip as simple VFR. Then later, you could change your mind and easily add/change equipment. That said, I had to do a lot of revision as my plans changed; it was only more difficult than if I had planned ahead. If you like building (I do) it's not a frustration; it's fun.
10. Ultimately, don't bother. If I really must do it, it was suggested, just buy a certified plane (no, I'm not kidding).
There are some people who are not into building. There is another RV builder on the field who partnered with another pilot to buy a flying RV-6A. The partner admires our projects but has no interest in building his own. When all is said and done, he will eventually buy out his partner and have the plane he wants without what is, to him, the hassle of building. Meanwhile, his partner has a plane to transition in while he completes his project. Both guys are happy and why should we question their choices? What route you pick is up to you. Personally, I'd enjoy the building as much as flying (good thing, too; I haven't had many hours since starting the project).

What all those points above boil down to is where your commitment lies. It's worth thinking about but if you already know the answer is that you want to build an airplane then don't be bothered. Relax, take confidence in your own decision, and build away!
 
No Longer a Newbie

Mike:
As I said I would continue with 2 on but reading the replys things have changed. A builder is faced with the future and builder's ESP is awful. Quick build is not a problem just more expensive and a pain and time saver. Get the tools you need from Vans or the list if you like shopping your self. To antipate a different engine, different panel, and different things now may be a waste of time. I said MAYBE
So get your kit and start building. Back when I used to know it all.
 
I am in the same boat. I have been spending the past month getting my shop in order. I have the tools, and am working on two sample projects to get my riveting up to par. (Does anyone know of any cool practice projects other than Van's?)

I am waiting on a bonus to order my RV-10 kit. just to reassure you after your chapter experience. We recently moved, and I got involved with the local EAA chapter, and they have been really great. A lot of encouragement. The local EAA tech counselor is an institution. He has been really nice to me, I approached him the other night to start talking about the build. He has offered to come by, take a look at my shop, and work on some riveting, etc.
 
Mike
Don't worry too much about the EAA chapter stuff. They're great, but in many cases, you have to factor in a few things about people. Lots of EAAers could just as easily be in the Curmudgeon Airmen Association. :D.

There's no question the big picture is important, but it can also be defeating. As many a smart person has said, building a plane is merely completing a bunch of small tasks.

Or as another expert said, "just keep swimming."
 
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MTC

Mike, I belong to a fairly new chapter in Eugene Oregon and have to say that it is comprised of some very positive people. Yes they realize how much of a struggle it is to get through a project but I don't believe any one of them would suggest owning a certified aircraft as a replacement for building your own. It could be that the group you've been associated with believes in trial by fire. If after they have slammed you to the ground, you pick yourself up and start building anyway...etc., they may think it weeds out the weak. Sounds like a bunch of crusty old men. Probably not a group I'd choose to be around for very long. No offense to anyone if your old (like me) but not crusty (again, like me) you aint the person I'm talking about. On a different subject. It pays to ?surf? different builder sites for ideas and also hang out here sometimes there are some real nice builders gems in the mix. Also, VAF is extremely valuable as a mature resource for specific subject searches. Everything you mentioned and some you didn't; Engine choice, avionics, type of lighting, electrical system, no electrical system, it's all part of the build. You get to think about all this stuff as you build and is part of the fun. As far as QB goes I'm building a QB and when I finished I don't believe there is anything on my ?bad boy? I won't be able work on or fabricate and replace. Get yourself a tail kit an get building.
 
Oops! Yup, I got the Mikes mixed up.

Anyway, one thing about the number of homebuilts that get completed: A much higher proportion of RV's actually get finished, probably due to several factors (all my guesses): Superior kit, great cost/performance ratio (for $50-100K more you can go 10% faster with a Lancair FG), enthusiasm of those who have built one helps motivate those still building, enough builders around to help those who occasionally get lost or discouraged, lots of resources such as VAF and Matronics, and I could go on. If you're out there building a Joe's Firebird project and are the only one for a thousand miles around and the kit and plans are minimal and you hear that they don't fly as well as the kit seller claimed, the chances of giving up are pretty high. Not the case with RV's.
 
Sorry to hear about the EAA Chapter experience. Maybe it is the trial by fire thing, but more likely they haven't had a real builder in the chapter. Or have had some that gave up. Now, the REAL danger--you start building, do pretty good at and they make you President! It happened to me...

The only thing that they told you that I will "second" is the trip to Oshkosh. If you haven't been there, it will answer many of your questions and really establish for you that it is a privilege to be one of those crazy dreamers who believes he can build an airplane. And that you can do it!

Don't get bogged down in the details just yet. The engine thing is really pretty simple and will seem so by the time you get to that point. Same with a lot of the other stuff. And we all have different ideas on what air compressor, squeezer, etc. They all work, some just better than others. Mistakes with these things aren't going to consume that much of your budget. And wait as long as you can before ever even thinking about avionics.

Pull the trigger; order the kit. Check out another EAA chapter if one is close. Attend Oshkosh if possible. And drive a few rivets every day.

Bob Kelly
 
For what it is worth, here are my opinions:


Man... I really don't want to be pegged as "that guy" with a bad attitude, but I went to the local EAA chapter meeting this morning and I'm really frustrated (read: pissed). What did I learn, you ask?

1. Most projects never get finished (9 in 10). Likely any project I take up will never get finished.

Many projects don't get very far, and there have been some really gung-ho people come on here and start building and they are never heard of again or, if they are, it is them trying to sell their project. Building a plane is a major undertaking and sometimes the dream of building does not match up to the reality of building. Old time EAAers have seen lots of newbies come and go. As someone said, RV's probably have a higher completion rate due to the amazing builders support provided by sites like this. The few times I have gotten discouraged (like after I made some stupid mistake that makes me wonder if I am too stupid to be building a real airplane), I come on here and read of what others are doing and it gets me excited againl


2. Even if I do finish, there may be no engine to put into my plane because Lycoming quit making them. (huh?)

Huh? Even if they did, there are clones that won't be going away anytime soon.

3. Even if you find an engine, airports are disappearing off the map purchased up by developers. There's legitimate, current, ongoing threats to this EAA chapter's field. I may have no place to fly.

There is some truth to that, but then other airports are growing. Compared to what was out there 30 years ago, though, it is a little depressing, but there will always be places to fly.

4. My rivets will likely never be airworthy.

Sheesh. You have to really screw up bad to have a rivet joint that will fail in flight. Rivets do not have to be text book perfect.

5. I need to fly to Vans to inspect their facility and learn about construction.

For some suppliers, I would agree, but not with Van's. With thousands of planes flying, you don't have to worry about Van's facility. As for construction, study their manual, view some videos, attend Sun n Fun or Air Venture or simply visit some local area projects.


6. I need to fly to Oshkosh to see what's happening in homebuilts and stay there for the week taking classes.

That would be nice, but hardly necessary. Read Sport Aviation and Kitplanes, plus internet sites like this one, to keep up to date on what is going on.


7. I have to fly to some class on the East Coast to learn how to build (or my rivets will stink).

Nope. It would be nice, but before I started on my empannage, I had made a few practice rivets and only just started on the tool box kit. I pretty much figured things out on my own. This is not rocket science. People with maybe a high school diploma build spam cans.


8. The real cost of aviation limits access to the sport to all but the very rich - even if you don't go broke building the thing, you will maintaining, insuring (if you can even get insurance), hangaring, and fueling the thing.

Same can be said of owning a boat. And, as is often said, if you want to save money and fly, then you will save by renting. Building your own airplane allows you to save a bunch on maintenance compared to owning a spam can, and you can use non-FAA equipment that costs a fraction of the certified equipment, but aviation clearly does require one of some means, but you hardly have to be "rich". Did you see the recent Kitplanes article about a guy who built an RV-9 for around $40K? Still, even at that low price, it is a price a lot of people simply can't afford or justify.


9. I need to make all the decisions about avionics and engine today or I'll get lost in the project.

Hardly. I put off my engine selection until the point I ordered my finishing kit. I still haven't selected my instruments, though I have a good idea of what I will choose. Now, I do agree that it is good to do as much planning as you can up front, and if you can't start building for a while, then by all means do your research and planning. You can always change your plans.

10. Ultimately, don't bother. If I really must do it, it was suggested, just buy a certified plane (no, I'm not kidding).

Sheesh. What fun is that? I wonder why whoever told you that attends an EAA meeting!
I don't even want to continue. I will admit that most of the guys were friendly, one even had some positive words, and one even offered to help on the project. But what the hell? This "sport" is hard-friggin'-enough to get in to as it is. [/QUOTE]

I do know people who don't attend EAA meetings for the reason that many members aren't builders and the programs rarely talking about things builders are interested in. Like any organization, fresh blood is needed. I hope you continue to attend the meetings and start to take an active role. Keep talking about you dream and discuss your plans. Hopefully, some other newbie will stop by and be encouraged by your reports and he wil seek you out, and over time more newbies who would have otherwise dropped out will keep attending and pump some new blood into the club.
 
Thanks again everyone for spending some time on this thread and answering all these boring questions.

Also, I want to publicly thank one of your members who graciously invited me down to his hangar last night to check out his RV-6 on a spur-of-the-moment airport junket. God, what a fantastic plane and terrific build/finish job! I sat in the cockpit with the glass all fired up and could just see myself at 10,000 feet on my way to... wherever! Unfortunately, the visit didn't resolve the tension about whether or not to build (the clouds didn't open up with a beam of sunlight and God's booming voice "you shall build an RV-7" - which is what I really needed) but it did give me some inspiration and helped fuel the dream. Thanks a bunch.

I was still firmly on the fence returning from the airport, and my girlfriend and I decided to go to the beach to take some photos in the late evening sun (she's got a new camera - her passion). We were walking along and she just looks at me and says. "Build it. You know you'll love it and if you don't even try, you'll definitely regret it. The timing's not perfect, but it never will be." She tends to know me better than I know myself, so with those simple words, well... what the ****. I think I'll give it a try.

MB out.