jimski9

Member
The plans describe bonding wooden gear leg dampeners to the main gear legs.
Is there any concern about this permanent bonding? I wondered if it may make it difficult to inspect the gear legs for cracking later on. I am considering drilling five or six holes in the wooden dampeners and attaching them to the gear leg with beefy zip ties.
Has anyone else done this and will this provide enough dampening effect?

Thanks

Jim Talbot
Tauranga
New Zealand
 
jimski9 said:
The plans describe bonding wooden gear leg dampeners to the main gear legs.
Is there any concern about this permanent bonding? I wondered if it may make it difficult to inspect the gear legs for cracking later on. I am considering drilling five or six holes in the wooden dampeners and attaching them to the gear leg with beefy zip ties.
Has anyone else done this and will this provide enough dampening effect?

I think the plans also say something about some planes needing them and some not. I tried flying my plane without the dampeners and try as I might - no shimmy :p. Therefore my pieces of wood never got installed - saves weight, effort and servicabilty if you luck out.
 
The thickness of the wire ties might interfere with the fit of the gear leg fairings. I just finished this job a few weeks ago, with satifactory results. The additional thickness of the fiberglass wrap did alter the fit of the fairings. I now plan to install the pressure recovery wheel fairings along with the fiberglass gear leg fairings. My RV-6 has the original two piece metal fairings on the gear legs at present.

Bob Severns
 
Make it "structural"

jimski9 said:
The plans describe bonding wooden gear leg dampeners to the main gear legs.
Is there any concern about this permanent bonding? I wondered if it may make it difficult to inspect the gear legs for cracking later on. I am considering drilling five or six holes in the wooden dampeners and attaching them to the gear leg with beefy zip ties.
Has anyone else done this and will this provide enough dampening effect?

Thanks Jim Talbot Tauranga New Zealand
Jim don't worry about inspection access for cracks. You should be worried about corrosion. Some materials like instant foam, which some have used on gear legs can hold mosture corroding the steel.

The gear legs don't crack; they might bend, but I would not worry too much about cracks. If there's a crack it'll happen down low where it bends for the axial. I say that with some knowledge of metals, crack growth and damage tolerance. Certainly a crack can occur, but it will "grow" fast. It's unlikely you will catch it in time unless you do gear inspections frequently. So you can cover up the leg with out too much worry.

To avoid corrosion a good finish is important. I am not a huge fan of the powder coating on the gear as they come now, but that's what we have. I would rather an epoxy primer for this part. We don't need a pretty gun metal gray, like the canopy frame. No one can see it. As long as the PC coating does not chip, flake or crack, allowing mosture to contact the steel. Corrosion is not likely even if you do cover it with fiberglass.

There was one case where instant foam was used to fill the fairing. The combo of chemical reaction and foam holding mosture on the steel gear leg, which was not properly primed (pre powder coat days), was a disaster. In a year or so period of time, the thing was a corroded mess.

kevinh's right, consider trying with out at first. However with you will have a firmer more solid ride and reduce the chance of shimmy significantly, but it comes at an expense.

The twist ties may add too much "thickness" as mentioned, and I doubt they would be "structural". If you are going to put them on you might as well make them work.

Extra thickness from attaching the stiffener increases the gear fairing frontal area. Fiberglass wrap is my method of choice to attach the stiffener. It adds min thickness and is very strong. It is semi permanent but it is not impossible to remove.

You could try some stainless steel bands, like the steel bands around freight, but I would worry about the metal bands making a nick in the gear leg. I said cracks are not a worry before. I lied. If you put a notch or nick in steel you will increase the chance of a crack by a huge margin. Don't allow any nicks or gouges in your gear legs.


If you do add the stiffener, use some sealant between the gear leg and stiffener to keep junk out. Pro seal would work. The adhesive is not meant to be structural but helps the parts work together, reduces abrading of he powder coat and keeps mosture out.

They way I attach a stiffener is wrap it with carbon fiber or "S" glass tape, at the top, mid and bottom, at minimum. You don't have to go crazy, but a couple of wraps around at each location, about 3-5" wide will do. Added thickness will be min.

On my RV-4, the difference noticeable. I could taxi fast and never get shimmy. It was just more solid. I made may own stiffener out of OAK. Actually a woodworking genius friend make them for me. The fit between the stiffener and leg was like a glove. Making a double tapered wood stiffener with a concave mating surface to match the gear leg is a trick. Van's method of gluing two pieces of wood molding together, with a "V" notch fit, works and is way easier, but if you have the skill to make a one piece solid stiffener that nests onto the gear, verse just sitting on top a V-notch with two contact points, the better.

Flying (taxing) without the stiffener, I did get a main gear shimmy when taxiing (way too) fast, but I would just check speed, slow down and it stopped. No big deal. The solution without the stiffener was taxi a little slower. I put the stiffener on because I thought I had to. In retrospect I could have left it off.

With the stiffener the feel was solid and could taxi straight, in a turn, go fast with out worry of wheel shimmy. Taxi at any speed over any surface felt solid like a car. I guess it helped a little on landing, but no shimmy taxi was the main advantage.

On my current project I am leaving them off for the simple reason of build, time, weight and keeping the fairing "skinny".

The stiffener needs to work as one with the steel leg. Just throwing it on so it can move and shift decreases effectiveness. The tie wraps I think will not cut it. If you are building a RV-7A, I think stiffeners on the mains and even the nose gear may have positive affect on the nose gear issue.

G
 
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Using PVC pipe

On my -6 I used sch 40 (thick walled) 1/2 PVC pipe. I split it (half moon) and attached it using 3M 3/4 strapping tape wrapped the entire length of the landing gear leg. Not as stiff as wood but alot better than nothing. It is light and very easy. I even run the brake line inside the PVC. Cut and peal off the tape if you need to inspect (or in my case replace a brake line). Fits nicely inside the gear leg fairing. Going to do the same on my -8A.
 
Believe it or not, they make shrink tubing in some ginormous sizes. Maybe you could just shrink-tube the whole thing together.
 
Bounce

First let me confess to not haing mastered the 'Greaser' in my RV-7, which I had pretty well mastered on my mates -8.
Seems to be a function of poor vis. over the nose (compared with the -8.) my ability (Inability) and maybe? the lower 3 point attitude than the -8.

From a recent pic of me landing I suspect I am touching down tail first and pitching onto the mains.
So, has any one noticed that wood dampers in the gear fairings dampens the gear on touch down. I'm not talking about dropping it on from three feet, but when you almost kiss it on and the rebound in the gear gives you a skip- not a bounce.

Pete.
 
My experience is that the "greaser" 3-pointer is hard to repeat in anything but perfect conditions. The airplane is above stall speed, and any meaningful vertical motion causes a skip. In addition, the slightest gust can balloon you a foot or two, even if you had all three wheels on the ground rolling smoothly. I've had more than a few of these, where I got an "oooh" out of the passenger because of the nice touchdown, and then caught a gust, which ruined the whole effect.

The tail slightly before the main's landing may be a better overall solution because as soon as the tailwheel hits, the mains follow, reducing your angle of attack and minimizing the chance of a skip or balloon.
 
It seems to me that you could, at one time, buy pre-made wodden stiffeners, from GBI or someone similar.

Anyone know where you can still get these?

JC
 
Try wheel landings

fodrv7 said:
First let me confess to not haing mastered the 'Greaser' in my RV-7, which I had pretty well mastered on my mates -8.
Seems to be a function of poor vis. over the nose (compared with the -8.) my ability (Inability) and maybe? the lower 3 point attitude than the -8.

We can start another debate, but hopefully not..... If your 7 (just like my -6) has a 180 and CS it tends to be slightly on the nose heavy side and will WHEEL land a lot better than 3 point. But like a 3 point, the least amount of vertical component will result in the finest landing. IMHO you can wheel land your -7 much more consistantly in any kind of wind. Carry a little power all the way into the flare and about 75 -80 mph over the fence (with a CS prop they pay off very fast at idle) Try it with just a slight amount of nose down trim and it will almost pin itself. You will use a little more runway over the 3 point but not very much. Ask Dan C what he thinks.......
 
Chino Tom said:
Ask Dan C what he thinks.......
Couldn'a said it better myself Tom. I don't have any gear stiffeners on my RV-7 (1113 pounds empty, empty CG: 78.63"). I don't miss them. You can stiffen your gear all day to cover up for being "behind" the airplane, or you can practice or train.
 
Training can't fix this

dan said:
Couldn'a said it better myself Tom. I don't have any gear stiffeners on my RV-7 (1113 pounds empty, empty CG: 78.63"). I don't miss them. You can stiffen your gear all day to cover up for being "behind" the airplane, or you can practice or train.
Dan that is fine but there are many RV's that have a propensity to shimmy for one reason or another. I agree with you fly without and see what is what. However after people balance their tires, their wheel fairings, play with air pressure, some still have a persistent main gear shimmy (rv-4/6/7/9)? To put it on training alone I think misses the main reason for them, wheel shimmy. The RV gear stiffeners have been around for 20 years for a reason. I am in the leave them off if able. I may try the Tom's PVC thing someday.

I tried both with and without, I did have shimmy but only at high taxi speeds on some surfaces. Lower taxi speed solved it; however later after adding the stiffeners it did have an overall better and more solid FEEL. Shimmy? It was totally gone at any speed or surface. Could I have lived with out the stiffener. Yea but it is a pain to get the shimmy; You have to slow way down to get it to stop, so if you need it or want it, get it. I watch RV's taxi and you see non-stiffener gears moving quite a bit. With a little less. Totally subjective observation.

If you have not flown a RV with effective stiffeners than you will notice when taxing it does not, wiggle, bounce, wobble and shake as much. With all that said I prefer to leave them off if at all possible, but they do offer benefits that training can't change. Again I agree training is good thing and stiffeners are not a substitute to proper landing skill, but when it comes to gear stiffeners it is like leather seat covers, if you like the feel of them, than it is worth the effort. However some people find that the stiffener solved their shimmy problem. That has nothing to do with training. Cheers G

Chino Tom said:
We can start another debate, but hopefully not..... If your 7 (just like my -6) has a 180 and CS it tends to be slightly on the nose heavy side and will WHEEL land a lot better than 3 point.
Not sure what the debate is too nose heavy or wheel landings. The RV-7 is tail heavy overall and can take more weight on the nose BTW, but I think you're talking wheel landings. I never was a big fan of wheel landing at least for normal landings. I appreciate your post, but WHY are wheel landings better. I am not debating, just asking. I find landing near stall is easier to land. I find the RV's don't do 3-pts, since a full stall usually results in the tail wheel hitting first and than the mains slapping down. So I guess all my RV landings are a wheel landing in a sense. I carry some speed to get the mains on just before the tail wheel. On rare occasion I get all three the roll on at the same time, but that is more of an accident than a plan.

If it is windy I might "fly it" on and "stick the mains". Do you ever try for a three point or do you always fly it on? You also say a "Little more runway". I agree with that but what is a little? I would say have both types of landings in your tool bag, and practice both but a min speed touch down (say 50-55 mph) tail low works best overall 95% of the time for me. Either way stiffeners or no stiffeners you should be able to land anyway you want.

Cheers G
 
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More on wheelies

I generally make a slightly tail low wheel (stick it) landing. The advantages, I believe, are much better control all the way thru landing. My touch down speed is in the 60 mph range, only 5 mph or so over your 3 point. After touchdown the wieght is on the mains and visibilty is better. If my speed control is good on final, my landing distance is only slightly longer than a full stall landing (100 - 200 ft?). Any runway over 1,000 ft long becomes non critical, but if your not on the ground in the first 1/3 you should try again anyway. The RV with the CS prop makes it easy to hit very near or on the the numbers EVERY time. Van in a past news letter likes to land like you explain (fly on 3point - not stalled) and then raises the tail to put more weight on the the mains for braking). With the CS prop the RV pays off so quickly that I don't believe wheel landings are any kind of disadvantage. I do occasinoally practice the fly on 3 point but not very often. I can land my RV much more consintantly wheeling it on (Even heavy with near aft CG).
And my pvc dampers just let the legs squat with no rebound. I think the wood ones would make the gear stiffer and promote rebound if stuck hard.
Just my opinion. As long as we all land and keep it going in the direction of the lines it shouldn't matter.
 
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Thanks Roger That!

Chino Tom said:
I generally make a slightly tail low wheel (stick it) landing. The advantages, I believe, are much better control all the way thru landing. My touch down speed is in the 60 mph range, only 5 mph or so over your 3 point.
Roger That! OK, that's what I do also, quasi wheel landing. Thanks for the come back. What I find with a true level/ nose low wheel landing, to keep a RV stuck, the nose has to be low, which makes me nervous about prop tip ground clearance.

"(fly on 3point - not stalled) and then raises the tail to put more weight on the the mains for braking)", Interesting never though of it that way.

PVC stiffeners, clever might have to steal that idea. :D
Cheers George
 
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Practice

Ooooh! Danny Boy.
I am sure you are not implying that I wouldn't practice.

My query was more, "Do leg Stifferners reduce rebound" rather than "How do you land an RV-7."

I do have a CSU, but shot myself in the foot fitting an Aero Sport Power Straight Valve- a lot lighter than your Angle Valve- and an MT prop- a lot lighter than your Hartzell- and so have quite a rear CG at 81.3".

It took me a while to master the -8 and I am sure my -7 will be the same.
But it IS different.

Pete.
 
fodrv7 said:
Ooooh! Danny Boy.
I am sure you are not implying that I wouldn't practice.

Sorry, almost hijacked the thread. I saw some discussion on wheel landings vs. 3 pointers and I was asked for my opinion on that.

I'm sure the stiffeners must do something, otherwise so many people wouldn't be using them.
 
Hijacked

Actually, I think I hijacked the thread. Apologies.
Thanks to all those who offered advice on landing the beast.
Pete.
 
I vote to do it now

gmcjetpilot said:
If you do add the stiffener, use some sealant between the gear leg and stiffener to keep junk out. Pro seal would work. The adhesive is not meant to be structural but helps the parts work together, reduces abrading of he powder coat and keeps mosture out.

They way I attach a stiffener is wrap it with carbon fiber or "S" glass tape, at the top, mid and bottom, at minimum. You don't have to go crazy, but a couple of wraps around at each location, about 3-5" wide will do. Added thickness will be min.

On my RV-4, the difference noticeable. I could taxi fast and never get shimmy. It was just more solid. I made may own stiffener out of OAK. Actually a woodworking genius friend make them for me. The fit between the stiffener and leg was like a glove. Making a double tapered wood stiffener with a concave mating surface to match the gear leg is a trick. Van's method of gluing two pieces of wood molding together, with a "V" notch fit, works and is way easier, but if you have the skill to make a one piece solid stiffener that nests onto the gear, verse just sitting on top a V-notch with two contact points, the better.
G
According to the plans (at least mine, it may have been different when George built his RV-4) the stiffener is attached by first bonding it with epoxy and filler (I used microballoons) then wrapping the entire length with 2-3 layers of glass. I think that 2 layers of E-glass is fine. When the stiffener is bonded to the leg, the V-notch should be filled with the epoxy filler, negating the need for a fancy one-piece stiffener. When I did mine, I just followed the plans and used some simple base trim from Home Depot.

I would do it now rather than waiting because adding the stiffeners later will take away from flying time. The weight gain is very minimal and it didn't take me long to install them.

If you do install them, make sure to get them fairly well aligned with the airstream so that you have enough adjustment room for the gear leg fairing. Before bonding the stiffeners, I taped the stiffeners in place and roughly followed the leg fairing alignment procedure. I adjusted the stiffener to the middle of the fairing and marked it.
 
Eucalyptus not Oak

Eric et George,
Thanks for the brief.
I shall make some out of Australian Ash (Eucalyptus). No Oak trees here.
Pete.
 
Gear Leg Stiffeners - not

I was advised by Van's (Ken, I think?) NOT to put those on until I determined that it was required. He said that none of the factory planes had them. If it turns out that I do need them to subdue shimmy, it is no big deal to install later.
Rolly Clark
-9 on the gear
FWF
 
Does anyone know who it is that sells the wooden stiffeners pre-made?

I thought it was GBI but they do not seem to anymore.
 
Jconard said:
Does anyone know who it is that sells the wooden stiffeners pre-made?

I thought it was GBI but they do not seem to anymore.
Roger the Woodman - Turtle something in the company name. I think he is or was an advertiser on the VAF site.
h
 
I used Roger's wood stiffeners. They were nice as they were all cut with the taper. I used three inch wide 9 oz. glass tape to wrap them so they were three layers thick and then soaked them with resin. After they cured, I sanded down some high spots, smoothed them out, recoated with resin, then fit the fairings. They do a great job dampening the gear.

Roberta

Shot of the right leg with my hubby inspecting my work.

legstiffener1za.jpg
 
I made my own

Jconard said:
Does anyone know who it is that sells the wooden stiffeners pre-made?
I feel that the stiffeners were very easy to make. I used some cheap wood trim from Home Depot. I cut them on a friends table saw and they turned out very nice. Just my two cents.
 
Just wondering for those who've experimented... Does the type of wood make a lot of difference?

Wood types vary considerably with regard to weight, flexibility, grain (to the point where a wide grained wood could split under stress), and all sorts of things.

For example, on the one end, using Ipe' (pronounced "ee'pay") would result in a VERY stiff and strong leg as well as adding a LOT of weight, while on the other extreme would be Basswood which would be almost as light as Balsa (i.e. negligible added weight), still be very strong (about the same as Spruce for this application), would allow more overall flexibility but still add considerable dampening.
And then there's everything in between.

So what's the thinking about the best type of wood to use for the purpose?
Or hasn't anybody really cared?