B25Flyer

Well Known Member
I am writing a magazine story about synthetic vision so i called up the MSP Cirrus salesman Taylor Huether and asked for a ride. He obliged and this morning I flew up to Flying Cloud and flew the new SR-22 with Garmin Perspective, a proprietary version of the G-1000. I took a friend, a +/-100 hr PVT pilot to see how he did with the magic.

He took the first leg. He got a brief description and then he took off. We gave him about 10 minutes to get his bearings and then gave him a hood and a vector to final for the ILS.

He joined the Hiway in the Sky HITS and flew an ILS to minimums at ATP standards..... Incredible.....

This synthetic vision is a gamechanger and instead of coming from the top down is is growing from the bottom up! What an exciting time...... I took my turn and flew with the hood on easily to the threshold, less than 50 ft. then did a miss and came back for a VFR landing but I was still trying to fly the synthetic vision to the runway and crashed the landing so bad Taylor grabbed the yoke:(:(

They can't all be good.... This makes it possible for nearly anybody to easily fly in the IFR system, with or without an autopilot..... It is incredible.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
 
And would you believe that you can get that system crammed into a rocket?!?! If people haven't flown behind it it's hard to describe, but the situational awareness is unbelievable. Tower/obstacles in 3D, the runway environment complete with hash marks, signposts for airports, weather overlain on the GPS and approaches managed with a few button pushes.

Anyway, I think we all know that's the direction the world is heading. Some will be more successfull at their presentations than others, and I'm sure we'll get the obligatory interjection from an EFIS mfgr or two who will comment on their particular take on this subject.

One thing I can say is that there is lots of exciting stuff coming in the next year or two. Another leap in technology. Quite unbelievable when you even look back 10 years....or compare what the heavy iron has in it even today.

Cheers,
Stein
 
Hummmm

Just like computers years ago. So do I wait and never buy the best. Or should I buy and have it obsolete in a year......?
 
Stein, is this the same one or similar to the system you had set up at your shop a few weeks ago? Truly amazing.
 
Indeed it is one in the same with a few minor tweaks. The G1000 in the Cirrus has a 35% larger screen than the G900X's and regular G1000's as in Cessnas, etc.. But retain identical hardware otherwise. Having the G900X with all of it's components still retaining their certification (not "experimental" versions) is something unique to Garmin. It's a heck of a neat system, and like I said before I think you'll start to see other systems out there as well.

Cheers,
Stein
 
. It's a heck of a neat system, and like I said before I think you'll start to see other systems out there as well.

Cheers,
Stein

Stein, do you have a screen shot (a picture worth a thousand words etc). What is it that makes this system better than the synthetic vision currently on offering from say GRT.
 
So what exactly made the approach easier, the synthetic vision or the HITS? If you are writing an article, I would think you should be able to make a distinction between the two and the utility of each under the current airspace system. The Garmin Perspective is great and offers BOTH, but which is it that adds utility and which is just eye candy?

I just completed a cross country from Quakertown, PA (KUKT) to Palomar, CA (KCRQ) and back. Some of it (25%) was IFR/IMC but most of it was VFR day and night. A Perspective like display would have been nice, but "a game changer?"--well, I don't think so. The 2D terrain in the Garmin 430 was very capable for the flying that was done. This (synthetic vision) is great technology but I still think it is an answer in search of a question.

Uncomfortable IFR pilots like it because it gives them a "warm and fuzzy" while in the soup, more so than the altimeter and a moving map would.

VFR pilots like it because it gives them a daytime view while in marginal or sub-optimal conditions that they should probably not be in anyhow.

The reason it is "growing from the bottom up" instead of "from the top down" as you say is because of the reasons above. Professional flight organizations and pilots are not usually uncomfortable IFR or VFR pilots and so have not considered synthetic vision a must have "game changer."

While I like some implementations of synthetic vision, I dread a future where I'm reading NTSB reports of pilot(s) colliding with a towers and obstructions while scud running using a synthetic vision system. Of course this happens today without synthetic vision. I see synthetic vision only giving a false sense of comfort to make this more prevalent.

If Garmin (or any other manufacturer) offered synthetic vision for free as an incentive to purchase their system, that would be a plus. I would not however pay extra for it. Enhanced vision on the other and is another story entirely --this is truly useful and is already in high end business jets.
 
W1,

I am not going to write the article here, but anything that reduces the brainpower needed to fly the airplane leaves more available to solve other problems, like reroutes, emergencies, passengers is a good thing.

Fly into KTEB single pilot on a monday morning in low weather in a fast turbine airplane, and even the most current proficient pilot is pretty much at the limit. Throw in an autopilot that is acting up, or anyother minor annoyance malfunction and it goes from at the limit to a problem in a heartbeat.

We must make it easier if Single pilot light jets flown by part time pilots are going to be successful. Synthetic vision makes it much more intuitive.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
 
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Enhanced vision on the other and is another story entirely --this is truly useful and is already in high end business jets.


Actually, that's now an option on a Cirrus as well :) So, things ARE getting better (aka trickling down from bigger iron...)
 
Fly into KTEB single pilot on a monday morning in low weather in a fast turbine airplane, and even the most current proficient pilot is pretty much at the limit. Throw in an autopilot that is acting up, or anyother minor annoyance malfunction and it goes from at the limit to a problem in a heartbeat.

We must make it easier if Single pilot light jets flown by part time pilots are going to be successful. Synthetic vision makes it much more intuitive.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
I've flown into KTEB, IFR in a single at night and can't think how synthetic vision would have made it easier. How do you see it improving an approach into KTEB?

HITS on the other hand may have helped but since most approaches I've received there are vectors-to-final and not the full approach--maybe not. What would really help flying into KTEB is better procedures in that chaotic environment. I've flown into Boston Logan with less hassle and vectoring than an approach into TEB.
 
Stein, do you have a screen shot (a picture worth a thousand words etc). What is it that makes this system better than the synthetic vision currently on offering from say GRT.

It is definitely pretty and WILL make most pilots drool. It will also sell a lot of airplanes--but game changer?
cockpit_sm.jpg


Grand Rapids equivalent.
Dual%20HX.JPG
 
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While I like some implementations of synthetic vision, I dread a future where I'm reading NTSB reports of pilot(s) colliding with a towers and obstructions while scud running using a synthetic vision system. Of course this happens today without synthetic vision. I see synthetic vision only giving a false sense of comfort to make this more prevalent.

I suppose I've read every NTSB report regarding flight into terrain; since it's been possible on the Internet. I subscribed to an accident newsletter before that; and have researched accidents back into the 30's. And I have my own reasons for doing so; not to mention the fact that I live in mountain country, and we still get a share of these IMC related crashes.

In the last five years, flight simulation with terrain data-bases have become so accurate, that you easily re-create the scenarios, but with the look of "daytime". And that's the key to synthetic vision. It presents a daytime view, that can easily offset a situation in which the pilot is momentarily confused in regards to spacial awareness. The overhead view was a great start, and 3D visuals from a pilots view is even better and more instantaneous.

L.Adamson
 
I've flown into KTEB, IFR in a single at night and can't think how synthetic vision would have made it easier. How do you see it improving an approach into KTEB?

snip

Maybe I'm missing something in your question - most of us would consider it significantly easier to fly into KTEB (or any airport for that matter) VFR vs low IFR (even though I'm not IFR rated, this seems to be an obvious truth). The synthetic vision gets you a long way from IFR towards the "VFR" end of things. Pile on something like ice on the windscreen, oil on the windscreen, darkness, etc., and it seems to me to be a game changer indeed.

All the people killed on at least two airliner accidents (Secy. Brown's military flight and the 757 in south America) I can recall right off the top of my head would still be around if those aircraft had SV.
 
Maybe I'm missing something in your question - most of us would consider it significantly easier to fly into KTEB (or any airport for that matter) VFR vs low IFR (even though I'm not IFR rated, this seems to be an obvious truth). The synthetic vision gets you a long way from IFR towards the "VFR" end of things. Pile on something like ice on the windscreen, oil on the windscreen, darkness, etc., and it seems to me to be a game changer indeed.

All the people killed on at least two airliner accidents (Secy. Brown's military flight and the 757 in south America) I can recall right off the top of my head would still be around if those aircraft had SV.
Think of it this way, TEB tower tell you to fly heading 350 at 2,300 feet. Instrument flying is all about headings and altitudes. Synthetic vision will draw you a nice picture of the outside but you still need to fly the numbers to maintain heading and altitude.
-Having SV should provide you with a good depiction if you are descending but so should the altimeter.
-Having SV should provide you with a good depiction of turning in the wrong direction but so should the heading indicator or your moving map.

I'm not sure about the accidents you cite but it is possible that SV could have alerted the pilot of his diminishing altitude more quickly than the altimeter which he should have been paying attention to, but no one will know for sure. Yes, it may be that they would still be around if they had SV, but maybe they would also still be around if they had a simple moving map--or a pilot that paid better attention to his scan. The best technology in the world is useless, or even counter-productive, if used incorrectly or ignored.

Like I said, the only folks that go crazy over SV are VFR pilots and uncomfortable IFR pilots.
 
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Like I said, the only folks that go crazy over SV are VFR pilots and uncomfortable IFR pilots.

That's probably true..........

Because there is quite a history of IFR pilots becoming very uncomfortable in the "last" few seconds....

L.Adamson --- I've kept track of them all
 
Like I said, the only folks that go crazy over SV are VFR pilots and uncomfortable IFR pilots.

This reminds me of pilots who considered moving map GPS to be more of a toy, than a necessity. And yet the accident reports have overwhelming data-bases of those who flew unintentially into terrain for many reasons.

Of course, it's always the other guy, until it's you, or perhaps me as a passenger.

And just imagine SV with traffic avoidance, as a VFR tool. How many times do you fly into an airport enviroment where aircraft blend into the surroundings?

L.Adamson
 
snip

Like I said, the only folks that go crazy over SV are VFR pilots and uncomfortable IFR pilots.

Or IFR and VFR pilots who know that mistakes can and will be made at some statistically predictable intervals, not excluding themselves.

BTW, try googling "Doug Rozendaal" and enjoy!
 
This reminds me of pilots who considered moving map GPS to be more of a toy, than a necessity. And yet the accident reports have overwhelming data-bases of those who flew unintentially into terrain for many reasons.
Fortunately, I do not know anyone that considered moving map GPS to be a toy. Also, moving map technology came from the "top down" as usually the really significant aviation technology does.

And just imagine SV with traffic avoidance, as a VFR tool. How many times do you fly into an airport enviroment where aircraft blend into the surroundings?

L.Adamson
And if that traffic is coming up on you from behind? SV depicts only a forward view so you are looking down at a screen when you should be looking out the window in front and behind you. These are some more of the unintended consequences I can see with this technology for those that use it as a crutch.
 
Enhanced vision on the other and is another story entirely --this is truly useful and is already in high end business jets.

Yours for around $15,000... http://www.forward-vision.net/.

FWIW, the the thing that bothers me about Synthetic Vision is that it's only as good as the data you feed into it - even if the heading, altitude, and perspective is perfect relative to the environment. In a bad situation, you need to KNOW that the terrain on your display is what's outside (true even with 2D topo maps as well), and I guess I don't trust the data as much as I could. I think it would be useful to have Enhanced Vision to verify that mountain ridge is where it's supposed to be, and that your intended landing site is as flat as it looks on the 3D display, that there's no sheep on your runway, etc...
 
And if that traffic is coming up on you from behind? SV depicts only a forward view so you are looking down at a screen when you should be looking out the window in front and behind you.

This is where "Synthetic Audio" could be useful. Binaural audio processing could position the traffic behind/above/beside you in your headset. Then, a clever Synthetic Vision system could have a "locate traffic" function that rotates the display and highlights traffic in the virtual environment. Still, it's no good if the other aircraft doesn't have a transponder. Anyone know of any onboard traffic location devices? Something like a long-range parking sensor for airplanes? :p
 
And Paul Dye wrote an excellent article on the merits of the Honeywell SV system, a year or so ago......

L.Adamson
Hmm, I think Paul was the one that coined the term "eye candy" in relation to SV so that would be interesting. Can you point out the article?
 
Hmm, I think Paul was the one that coined the term "eye candy" in relation to SV so that would be interesting. Can you point out the article?

I haven't found it; but during the search, I seen that we've already gone through this subject before.........

And neither of our positions have changed.

L.Adamson
 
William, William, William my friend....you really do need to get some time behind these systems and you will understand that it is in fact a game changer - period. Aside from all the "pretty" stuff you mention that may or may not be part of the game changing paradigm, there is so much technology that goes along with this that truly does cause a paradigm shift.

Things like having an actively dynamic velocity vector that is WAYYY in front of any human pilot when it comes to instantly interpreting winds, aircraft movement, position, etc.. If you have a screen with an accurate runway depiction on it, and you glue the velocity vector to the end of the runway, you'll fly an almost perfect approach in most any condition. Having a system that doesn't fly like us as humans do (see and then react) tell you instantly what is going on with the airplane position, velocity, winds, vertical speed, bank angle, fwd speed, turn rate, etc.. all almost magically combined to keep you on a darned near perfect trajectory is phenomenal.

Looking out the window is #1, but I'll guarantee you I can take you to any class B airspace in the country, have you look out the window and count the targets you find. I'll also wager a large amount of money that you never see at least 75% of the targets that these system will. Your example of traffic behind you is a good one. In an RV10 you have zero possibility of seeing backwards. Your EFIS sees 360 degrees around you in a bubble. Some EFISes indeed only show traffic in front of you, but some have an inset(like the Garmin) which show traffic at 360 degrees. Some have it on other pages as well.

Having weather overlaid on an approach or even your course...sometimes the weather that the controllers have on the scope or the heavy iron has on radar is but a small slice of what you can now have access to in your homebuilt. Many an expertly piloted airliner/GA plane has met their demise this way.

If stronly disagree with your statment that the only people "wow'ed" by Synthetic Vision are "VFR pilots and uncomfortable IFR pilots". First you should know your audience. The person who started this thread probably has more actual IFR time in RV's, Warbirds, antique radial engine birds, etc.. with minimal instruments, etc.. that most of us combined and he is impressed. Second, coming from the heavy iron world myself, I can tell you that almost any heavy iron driver would gladly accept this technology into the cockpit with open arms and could rattle off a LOT of advantages. There have been a number of instances of loaded airliners flying into mountains whilst IFR - flown by pilots more capable in the IFR environment than most of us. Third, the world is going this way whether you think it's good or not, so learning how to utilize this technology and embrace it will make everyone safer. Some of the best pilots in the world have gone west into terrain, bad weather, mid-air collisions, etc.. while the entire time being on an IFR flight plan and in contact with a controller. Many of them arguably would still be here if they had even a small percentage of what we now have access to in our cockpits.

Anyway, in the end this is one of those areas that really shows who has flown behind what. If you get some serious time behind this stuff you'll quickly find that whether IFR or VFR, the Synthetic Vision and it's conjoined technology will blow you away. I'm not flaming you at all, just trying show you that your reference point is somewhat skewed. It wasn't that long ago that we all had an almost identical argument about autopilot....I heard nearly the exact same arguments and in fact I was one of those people who said "I don't need no crazy Autopilot in an RV - they are so easy to fly who needs it". Now, I push people to get one before any other singular piece of equipment in an airplane, be it IFR or VFR. Think about it, most of us old school folks would have laughed you out of the room 15 years ago if you suggested that sport planes and homebuilts (LSA type planes) would all have autopilots installed. Now it's almost a forgone conclusion.

There are other numerous examples of new technology that at first glance appear to some as being "toys" or whatever. Time usually shows that not to be the case. Anyway, I could write many pages on this subject (and in fact am in the middle of working on this years EFIS roundup for Kitplanes) and along with my own experience have a pretty good exposure to a lot of differing opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but opinions are also varied by ones own experience - whether first hand actual flight experience behind the items being opined on, or lots of reading/study of said equipment. I encourage everyone to try and keep an open mind about things until they get to experience it. That's how I try to do things and I've been surprised by many a piece of technology that I poo-poo'd initially after I had the chance to utilize it first hand.

In the end we all win because as new technologies mature, we are presented with so much more than we could have dreamed of even a decade ago!

My 2 cents as usual.

Have a great new year everyone!

Cheers,
Stein

PS William...just glanced over your panel planning ideas. Looks good, except you do realize you can get into a G900X for a LOT less than you have on your page?!? Also, to take advantage of any EFIS you're considering, I'd humbly suggest you upgrade to the TruTrak Digiflight IIVSGV...it'll really make the EFIS and GNS430W shine! :)
 
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Wow, I had no intention of starting a $hit $torm on this one...... But oh well that is fun..... My story will be in The Feb or March Twin & Turbine magazine. (and I will plagerize plenty of Steins words from the previous post.)


I would encourage anyone who gets a chance to fly SV to take it, Stein is spot on...... I wrote an article a while back called "too many toys" that tried to differenciate between the tools and the toys. SV really is a tool, not a toy....

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
 
synthetic vision

....firstly always remember that .....gyros...attitude.. horizon indicators... gps...inertial...dme.s adf..vor.s..ils...are all ...NAV AIDS......as is SYNTHETIC VISION!!..........if your.re flying into mountains ...towers..etc whilst on syn. vision...it.s because youre disobeying the fundamental rules of of IFR flight...ie.. maintaining route sector lowest safe altitudes!....maintaining dme steps!...descending only ..when established on an instrument app.procedure...or established within circling area of airport....or radar vectored altitudes etc...etc..etc.!!.....synthetic vision is about Situational Awareness!!......Nothing else!....it is the future...it is a game changer!!.and it will get better and better...but it is not to be used as a form of de facto VFR..I wish i had it during 38 yrs of IFR flying!! ....however... my lic lic baloos...(ie little pidgeon...native talk for airplane in PapuaNewGuinea..IE.. rv8..under construction!)....will be VFR only!.... single pilot/single eng. IFR ..being strictly for the birds!!...rgds ..stanman...
 
Cost

Stein, what is the price of the new Garmin SV system for our Experimentals? I know that AFS is going have SV and HITS this year and that is the way I'm planning on going.

Thanks for your great post. Any advancement that advances safety is a good one.
 
I haven't found it; but during the search, I seen that we've already gone through this subject before.........

And neither of our positions have changed.

L.Adamson
Yup--and despite statements to the contrary, I've since flown behind SV and have only re-affirmed my position. It (the Perspective) is that good and I'm even more worried now of VFR and low time pilots in marginal VMC and IMC heads down following their SV systems. This can't be good for overall safety.

My first exposure to the concept of Synthetic Vision (SV) was from the 1981 movie Escape from New York. I thought it was cool and interesting as Kurt Russel flew over Manhattan island in a glider at night with the buildings depicted in 3D monochrome wire frame as his guidance to a landing on the roof of the World Trade Center. As a non pilot wannabe at the time, I though this was cool technology and that it would make flying so much easier.

As the years progressed I watched the development of Sierra Flight Systems, then Chelton SV and still thought this technology was cool and could be useful. Even as a VFR pilot there were occasions where I thought SV would make a particular flying situation or flight better. Looking back, I think SV would have become a crutch that would have encourage VFR flying in marginal conditions that probably should not have been ventured. Those missions would have most likely been successful, however they would only have instilled and fostered a false sense of confidence using SV.

It was only after I completed my IFR and flew in the system for a while, that I really thought about the utility of SV in the US airspace system. This is where I came to the conclusion that; SV would provide at best supplementary situational awareness and at worst, if used incorrectly, encourage dangerous tendencies by low time pilots. Just spend some time on the COPA site and see how many pilots have succumbed to autopilot induced stalls. I love my autopilot and would not want to go back to flying IFR without it. But so many of those pilots have used their autopilots as a crutch, that they have caused their aircraft to stall relying on the vertical command autopilot. I'm no more against SV than autopilots, but SV technology is ripe for abuse. This is one of the reason I'm going with the II VSG and not the II VSGV autopilot --besides, I need to have something to do during an approach.

The military emphasized and developed Heads up display (HUD) technology rather than SV for good reason. The top of the line $322 million per copy F-22 Raptor does NOT have it. As a matter of fact the only military aircraft that incorporated any type of SV was the now mothballed "nap of the earth" B-1B. This implementation was heavily radar augmented however to make up for any "deficiencies" in the terrain database. It is also interesting to note that the SV 3D view by itself is NOT certified for TAWS in aircraft where it is mandated. Only the 2D overhead view in SV systems is TAWS certified.

Of course the vendors are more than willing to tout these high dollar, high margin SV systems as a "benefit to safety." The intent of SV is to provide additional situational awareness, however just as an indication from some statements that have been made in relation to SV, the law of unintended consequences looms large. Now VFR pilots with their SV systems will think, "with SV, I can easily fly IFR even though I'm not trained to do so."

For IFR flying you can be Maverick or you can be Iceman. As Maverick you will break all the rules and then pull off a dramatic action to save the day. Or you can be the Iceman, where you follow the rules and fly "ice cold, and by the numbers" --headings and altitudes. SV when relied on, is a tool for Mavericks.
 
Like I said, the only folks that go crazy over SV are VFR pilots and uncomfortable IFR pilots.

After 30+ years of flying IFR I am neither VFR only nor uncomfortable in IMC be it with steam guages, glass panels, or synthetic vision and I am a big fan of synthetic vision.

I can remember similar comments about the early moving maps.

Real pilots don't need a moving map. They are dangerous and will distract pilots when they should be looking elswhere.

I think today most would agree that moving maps have eased pilot workload, enhanced situational awareness and in all likelihood improved safety.

I have little doubt that synthetic vision will be no different

It is just another arrow in the quiver to be used in the hunt when appropriate. Appropriate in this case may still need defining but a usefull tool it will never the less become.
 
Of course the vendors are more than willing to tout these high dollar, high margin SV systems as a "benefit to safety." The intent of SV is to provide additional situational awareness, however just as an indication from some statements that have been made in relation to SV, the law of unintended consequences looms large. Now VFR pilots with their SV systems will think, "with SV, I can easily fly IFR even though I'm not trained to do so."

Let's not worry about the VFR pilots for the moment..........

and think about all the IFR pilots that are no longer with us; because somewhere along the line, they lost it during the approach proceedures. It's still happening all the time.

L.Adamson
 
Of course the vendors are more than willing to tout these high dollar, high margin SV systems as a "benefit to safety."

LOL! I actually laughed out loud when I read that! The funny part is that you actually hit the nail on the head without even knowing it. These "vendors" aren't entirely lying, and in fact are providing a benefit to safety. Where you are wrong is in the high$$/high margin part of it.

The fact is that the following EFIS mfgrs either have or will have SV within a short time...Let's take a look at the list of those who have some sort of SV:

1) Aerosonic/Op Tech
2) AFS
3) Avidyne
4) Blue Mountain
5) Chelton
6) Dynon
7) Garmin
8) GRT
9) Honeywell
10) L-3
11) MGL Avionics
12) PC Avionics
14) Universal Avionics
15) Rockwell Collins
16) TL Elektronics

You can't play the "high $$ high margin" card as a point of discussion when the CHEAPEST EFIS available has or will have some sort of SV on it.

I'd hardly call a Dynon, BMA, MGL, GRT or AFS "high $$, high margin" systems....yet they're implementing SV. In fact, it won't be too long and you won't be able to get a system without it....regardless of price.

I do concede that you have made some valid points about the possible heads down syndrome and concurr on that. To that end we violently are in agreement. That being said, you can't throw out the rest of the discussion points as wrong just because you don't think that way....this is a case where the rest of the world can't be entirely wrong. I'll guarantee you that if any EFIS mfgr thought that SV would cause ANY additional liability from a financial standpoint (IE, death/lawsuits/etc..) they wouldn't touch it at all so no matter what you or I or anyone else thinks, it's the way the world is going.

This has been a somewhat spirited discussion and I'm somewhat surprised by your position given the panels you're considering (seems to me that all of the systems you are considering either have or will have SV on them)....if you truly think that technology to be a crutch and to be useless for a lot of pilots, then I wonder why are you personally considering it? It's not a personal attack, it just seems that your panel choices don't mesh with your opinions of the technology you're choosing.

Like I said before reminds me of previous debates over other technologies over the years. I wonder if they had the same debates when navigators had to give up their sextants? :)

Again, my 2 cents!

Cheers,
Stein
 
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The military emphasized and developed Heads up display (HUD) technology rather than SV for good reason. The top of the line $322 million per copy F-22 Raptor does NOT have it. As a matter of fact the only military aircraft that incorporated any type of SV was the now mothballed "nap of the earth" B-1B. This implementation

Kind of an apples to oranges comparison. The military does use SV it's just not called that. It is derived from on-board sensors instead of a data base. F-16 C/Ds and F-15E have LANTIRN (displayable on the HUD and MFD) and the B-52H has EVS (no HUD so no HUD display, PFD only). Both systems provide real time SV without the use of radar. Never heard of "nap of the earth" B-1B. It's synthetic aperture radar can provide terrain following (ala the F-111/FB-111 but signficantly improved as would be expected). The F-22 has an electronically scanned array radar that provides the pilot high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping among other things. So saying the miltary doesn't use SV is misleading. The HUD itself is simply a display device (the C-17 has one) and has nothing to do with SV development directly.
 
Hey, Stein, point out to me where in any of my posts I said that SV was useless? In none of my post do I come anywhere near saying this. All I'm saying is that it is not the panacea that many are making it out to be.
 
Kind of an apples to oranges comparison. The military does use SV it's just not called that. It is derived from on-board sensors instead of a data base. F-16 C/Ds and F-15E have LANTIRN (displayable on the HUD and MFD) and the B-52H has EVS (no HUD so no HUD display, PFD only). Both systems provide real time SV without the use of radar. Never heard of "nap of the earth" B-1B. It's synthetic aperture radar can provide terrain following (ala the F-111/FB-111 but signficantly improved as would be expected). The F-22 has an electronically scanned array radar that provides the pilot high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping among other things. So saying the miltary doesn't use SV is misleading. The HUD itself is simply a display device (the C-17 has one) and has nothing to do with SV development directly.

Todd,

See my first post in the thread, you need to get your terms straight. All of these systems you mention fall under the category of Enhanced Vision (EV) NOT Synthetic Vision (SV).
 
I think you are splitting hairs on the SV vs. EV definiton. For my money, synthetic implies radar or computer data base generation while EV is more on the optical side. But in the end what's the difference in the big picture? If instead of a computer data base the Garmin was displaying a FLIR image would not the same benefits and pit falls apply? Unless the SV database is suspect, what advantages does EV have over SV?
 
You posted this yesterday:
.......The best technology in the world is useless, or even counter-productive, if used incorrectly or ignored.......

Like I said, the only folks that go crazy over SV are VFR pilots and uncomfortable IFR pilots.

I didn't mean to make it sound like you said the entire thing was useless, just that you implied that in general there was little benefit and more danger with it verses without it.

As far as Autopilot commanding the airplane to stall...you do realize that most all of the AP's we now are using in these homebuilts have pitot and static inputs for that very reason? TruTrak, Trio and now Dynon all have a parameter for minimum airspeed where the AP will not command a climb/nose up when the airspeed reaches that point (which should be programmed above stall speed). Data has proven time and time again that AP's will always fly the airplanes better than a human in high stress situations (and even in low stress situations).

We all can sit and debate the doomsday "what if's" about past accidents and their relationship to technology with no good answers because we can't undo the past. What we can do is look at the new technologies and define what benefits can be realized and applied to thwart future incidents.

I do agree that it's not a panacea for everything, but I disagree about other applications and their impact on safety. Gordon Pratt years ago ran a bunch of tests with pilots of every possible experience level and showed that literally 100% of the time if he had a guy fly an approach (with differing weather/wind conditions) on the needles/ball/airspeed and then on his Sierra Flight System/Chelton with SV that across the board pilots flying the EFIS 100% of the time flew a MUCH better approach. They've even tried it on people from Non-Pilots all the way up to NASA/Military pilots, and the result is the same every time. In fact, I'd wager a few cases of beer that if I stuck you in a sim behind steam gauges and had you hand fly an approach then do the same thing behind an EFIS with SV - then replayed the approach with all the data on it so you could see it plotted out that you'd find your approach to be far superior.

The facts are what they are my friend. We are going to just have to agree to disagree on this point and agree on others. Personally, I'm always open to something that'll help me out, even if it's new and I don't understand it completely.

Best Regards,
Stein
 
Pilots to our credit are a group that is skeptical and believe strongly in the systems we have a command of and our ability to safely operate within those parameters.

That said, then the question becomes, "Where do we drive the technology stake in the ground"

I know and fly with lots of airline pilots who told me when the Flight Engineers went the way of the A/N range that airplanes would fall out of the sky without F/Es. (I am sure they made the same case when the Navs were eliminated)

Then ETOPS came along and they said that twin-jets would be ditching in the ocean because every one knew that trans oceanic airliners needed at least 3, and better yet 4 engines.

Next was RVSM and the assurance that we would have mid-airs because 1000 ft altitude separation was too close.....

So where do we drive the stake? A Ford Tri-Motor on an A-N range approach into Albequeque? A DC-3 on an NDB approach into Salt Lake, A DC-7 with 4 engines and a crew of 4 over the north atlantic with a sextant?

Inspite of all the terrible innovations, 2 pilot crews, 2 engine airplanes over water, RVSM and on and on and on..... and yet the safety record of nearly every phase, certainly airline flying has steadily improved.....

The point is we can't stop the technology train and we should not try. Certainly some pilots will use SV to push low visibiltiy operations and they should not. The same arguement can be made for XM downlink weather, but believe me, you will take my XM weather reciever away from me when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers. It is a huge improvement in aviation safety. SV will prove to be a similar innovation.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
 
I think you are splitting hairs on the SV vs. EV definiton. For my money, synthetic implies radar or computer data base generation while EV is more on the optical side. But in the end what's the difference in the big picture? If instead of a computer data base the Garmin was displaying a FLIR image would not the same benefits and pit falls apply? Unless the SV database is suspect, what advantages does EV have over SV?

Even with an accurate terrain database, I'll propose that the main advantage is simple - you can see things that aren't in the SV database, at a greater resolution. Perhaps things that are on the terrain, but not part of it, or even in the air. Does that matter in normal situations? Probably not. I can see how it could matter a lot in a dicey situation. That said, they look like very complimentary technologies... and as Stein says, it'll be hard to buy an EFIS without SV soon anyway. Have a look at the Cirrus Perspective / Max-Viz videos online for a side-by-side comparison with SV in one screen and FLIR in the other.

Of course, as a trainee VFR pilot with some tools and practice kits, my take on all this is worth as much as you paid for it... but when the time comes, I'll aim to have both in my panel...
 
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