CharlieWaffles

CharlieWaffles

Well Known Member
Just received this in the email. There was no attachment unfortunately. I have a call into my dealer for more details.

Please see attached file for information on the ASDN for Service Bulletin SA 1236 GTN 6XX/7XX Software Upgrade Software Version 3.00, COM Software Version 2.10, NAV Software Version 6.02, NAV FPGA Version 1.1, WAAS Software Version 5.0, and GMA 35 Software Version 2.20.

The attachment can also be viewed at https://dealers.garmin.com/drc/index.jspx

If you have any questions please contact Garmin Aviation Product Support at 1-800-800-1020.


Thank you,
Garmin International
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It's going to have to be a really marvelous upgrade to convince me to rip my GTN 650 out of the panel and send it back to Garmin for an upgrade. It's stuff like this that makes me really glad I have the Dynon Skyview. Dynon knows how to be user friendly.
 
You dont need to send it to Garmin for this update... Any dealer should be able to perform this...
 
The real question is whether or not this will be covered under warrantee, or if Garmin will make you pay.
 
If anyone gets a list of improvements and/or bugs that this update resolves, please post or forward the link.

Thanks,

Bob
 
This most likely is the anticipated release that will make the GTN units comply with the AC 20-165 appendix 2 requirements for a precision position source for ADS-B out....

Bet there are a few bug fixes and other stuff as well.

Can't wait to see the list.
 
BobTurner said:
The real question is whether or not this will be covered under warrantee, or if Garmin will make you pay.
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Normal firmware updates are typically free at Garmin. Major upgrades like going from a 430 to a 430w are not. Certain required mods are not if they require surgery and the unit is not in warranty. 99% sure this is a software only update.

Dealers sometimes do it for free and some of them charge for it.

Typically the end user pays shipping.
 
Juvat said:
It's going to have to be a really marvelous upgrade to convince me to rip my GTN 650 out of the panel and send it back to Garmin for an upgrade. It's stuff like this that makes me really glad I have the Dynon Skyview. Dynon knows how to be user friendly.
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Since when has Dynon ever produced a precision approach certified GPS/NAV/COM? For that matter, when has Dynon ever produced any TSO'd device? (relabeling a Trig xponder does not count)

Your comparing apples to oranges....
 
It seems more like comparing Apples to butterflies.

Even a comparison of the G3X to the skyview is beyond apples to oranges.

With that said, it is irritating that Garmin allows us to build our own aircraft, including the GTN wiring and antennas but the software upgrade is beyond our competence in their eyes.
 
The concern is about how updates are accomplished.

I wonder the same as other posters. Shipping my GTN750 back to Garmin and getting it returned will be cost about $150 or more with insurance. Don't know yet what a local Garmin dealer wants for doing the software update, but my guess is its not free. We'll see. There is debate on another thread about why Garmin won't currently allow owners to perform the software updates.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=93798
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvat
It's going to have to be a really marvelous upgrade to convince me to rip my GTN 650 out of the panel and send it back to Garmin for an upgrade. It's stuff like this that makes me really glad I have the Dynon Skyview. Dynon knows how to be user friendly.
Since when has Dynon ever produced a precision approach certified GPS/NAV/COM? For that matter, when has Dynon ever produced any TSO'd device? (relabeling a Trig xponder does not count)

Your comparing apples to oranges....
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Brantel,
You're right. That's why I have BOTH a GTN 650 *and* Skyview system in my RV-8. But then you already knew that because it is written in my signature block. I enjoy (by design) the benefits of both "apples and oranges."
 
Oh, by the way, a TSO doesn't equate to quality. It just "means bureaucrat approved." This isn't to disparage the Garmin products in any way (they are always outstanding).
 
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Juvat said:
Oh, by the way, a TSO doesn't equate to quality. It just "means bureaucrat approved." This isn't to disparage the Garmin products in any way (they are always outstanding).
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I agree that there are some TSO'd junk out there but when it comes to precision approach certified IFR navigators, I doubt you will find any. In this case it means life or death and I am willing to accept the bureaucracy to protect life.
 
very expensive news!!!!!!!

I just received my GTN 650 two days ago and now I have to send it back to USA for a software upgrade:confused:

For me from Chile, send the unit round trip to USA by Fedex will cost almost USD1000.

I just paid USD3000 imports taxes and I will have to do it again:mad:

Please Garmin is there any way you upgrade my GTN 650 at sun n fun, I could bring it with me, any other option will cost me a lot of money!!!

I don?t know a Garmin Aviation dealer here in Chile, I could be yours:D
 
AirbusPilot said:
I just received my GTN 650 two days ago and now I have to send it back to USA for a software upgrade:confused:

For me from Chile, send the unit round trip to USA by Fedex will cost almost USD1000.

I just paid USD3000 imports taxes and I will have to do it again:mad:

Please Garmin is there any way you upgrade my GTN 650 at sun n fun, I could bring it with me, any other option will cost me a lot of money!!!

I don?t know a Garmin Aviation dealer here in Chile, I could be yours:D
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Hello Fernando,

Please send [email protected] an email and we will try to find a way to help you out.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that since the Garmin GTN650/750 are certified products, the FAA regulates how software modifications are done. Garmin always provides free end-user installed software updates on their non-certified (experimental) products such as the G3X, but because the GTN is a certified product Garmin has to follow the FAA regs. They are not trying to be difficult, just following what the FAA has laid down as law.
 
The FAA doesn't lay that 'law' down as such. My understanding of it when reading it is that the update process is detailed by the manufacturer in their selected process.

As certified products, a Cessna owner can't buy a GTN and install it. We, as experimental builders are not bound by that. The only reasons we are bound by the software updates only being done by dealers is because Garmin wrote it up that way. They are allowed to write it up differently if they so choose.

As always, I could be reading it wrong and I am open to correction. Garmin was nice enough to quote the pertinent chapter in the other thread and after reading it several times...it seems to me this is a Garmin decision, not an FAA mandate. If I am off course, someone please quote the reg that I have missed or misread. I loathe being mistaken, though I can't truthfully claim it's a rarity. :)

Happy Holidays!
 
I find it interesting that Garmin has been building TSO'd devices since 1994 and even before that if you count the UPS AT line, has hundreds of engineers that spend their workdays living and breathing this stuff, has shipped thousands of panel mounted certified boxes of various types and complexity, most likely has an entire legal department full of people that can understand all the legal and liability issues relating to the same. I am sure they also have a pretty good database of tech support cases that have allowed them to understand the capabilities of their end users pretty well as a whole.

I'm betting they have pretty good reasons why they don't allow us to do firmware updates to the certified boxes and since in most cases they don't make any money off of the process, I doubt it is corporate greed.

Another point to ponder is how Garmin does allow us to update most if not all of their non-certified products like the portables, GDL-39, G3X system, etc. This is great because we get frequent updates to the firmware that bring us the amazing features that we are all loving these days. In contrast are the certified products that get very infrequent updates that typically are only to fix major bugs or to bring new technologies to the product that are huge in nature like compliance with the ADS-B out certified position source requirements that changed while the GTN series was initially being delivered.

It is my understanding that the agreement with the certification authorities on things like field software loading takes place years in advance of releasing a new certified product and they don’t get to just change the rules as it suits them or us after the product is certified and in use without much Red tape and high cost.
 
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Garmin has at several times in the past changed how they do things based on market desire. Our market, to be more clear. They, despite the size of their engineering member, have gone the wrong way once or twice and chose to change their minds (as any company filled with such intelligent minds would). Not long ago, they thought the experimental market wasn't worth playing in but they eventually saw the light. Then they priced the G3X out of the game, but they changed their minds and now they can be argued as the best performance per dollar out there. I believe they can change their minds on software upgrades as well. As we pay $10k+ per unit, I don't think it improper for us to voice up just a bit.

Again, there may well be some info I'm missing here and I'll happily receive it if so...but because Garmin has been doing it this way since 1994...surely isn't the answer.
 
ColoRv said:
Garmin has at several times in the past changed how they do things based on market desire. Our market, to be more clear. They, despite the size of their engineering member, have gone the wrong way once or twice and chose to change their minds (as any company filled with such intelligent minds would). Not long ago, they thought the experimental market wasn't worth playing in but they eventually saw the light. Then they priced the G3X out of the game, but they changed their minds and now they can be argued as the best performance per dollar out there. I believe they can change their minds on software upgrades as well. As we pay $10k+ per unit, I don't think it improper for us to voice up just a bit.

Again, there may well be some info I'm missing here and I'll happily receive it if so...but because Garmin has been doing it this way since 1994...surely isn't the answer.
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I think if you really look at Garmin's history when it comes to certified gear, it won't be as dynamic as you have noticed it has been with the non certified experimental/light sport gear. Change in that area is very slow and meticulous.

As for certified gear Garmin has already told us why in this post:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=722731&postcount=14

Nobody is saying we can't voice our opinion even though it is a very small voice compared to the big voice and deep pockets of the certified world. I don't like the fact that I can't update my certified boxes either but I understand why. I have two brand new units sitting in my living room, a GTN650 and a GTX23ES that are going to get shipped back for firmware upgrades before they are a month old so I fully understand the issue most experimental folks have with this.

The product timeline for developing something like a GTN series box from concept thru to market takes many years and my understanding of it all is that the approvals for how firmware will get updated takes place very early in the process and to change that after the product has been certified very time consuming and expensive.

You are correct however that Garmin does listen and I can guarantee you that they are reading every one of these threads.....in the experimental products, we have seen the results of a request made on the VAF make it into the next software release for non certified Garmin products so we know they are listening....however, change will be much slower in the certified boxes...
 
So I pulled my 750 unit out of my plane and took it to my dealer. They were unable to do the upgrade as the unit needs the small configuration module connected for the upgrade to work. This module is in one of the wire harnesses connected to the cage. So really the only option is to pull the harness or take the plane with the unit and cage to do the upgrade. So much for the easy mail in or visit dealer option.
 
This does not smell right....it kind of defeats the purpose of the config module.

I am sure our Garmin guys will clarify soon!
 
Hmmm... I just reread my 650 install manual and the config module is housed in the P1001 connector. Based upon what Mark was told, if true, would imply that all software is updated via the SD card. If so, that would further imply that all updates are done "in panel" which would mean that the 6XX/7XX would still be connected to the config module.

Due to my ignorance I was under the impression that this update would be done on the bench. If it is done via the SD card, can we just take in a card to get the appropriate files? The only other option would be bring the plane to the shop as pulling the harness is a non-starter, at least for me.
 
I'm with Todd on this one. All the local dealers I can't get near until Phase II if I have to upgrade in the plane. That would really suck. Although that might create some unique opportunities for folks like SteinAir and Aerotronics at SnF and OSH.

I would have thought that a firmware update would have been done through one of the serial or Ethernet ports on the bench independent of the config module.

Bob
 
For reference, this is what the shop said on why it couldn't be done without the config module:

We couldn?t update it. Garmin said there is an issue with the system ID being changed and the configuration module software not matching the unit software.
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rleffler said:
I would have thought that a firmware update would have been done through one of the serial or Ethernet ports on the bench independent of the config module.
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GTN 6XX/7XX software updates (main board, COM, NAV, GPS) are done through a single SD card that is created by the dealer using software obtained from the Dealer Resource Center.

We will review the service bulletin to understand if there are any requirements to have the unit installed in the aircraft harness (with config module access) during the software update process for GTN V3.00.

Steve
 
Mark,

Thanks for the link.

Steve,

Thanks for the follow up, we are all anxiously awaiting your response.

Bob
 
Service Bulletin 1236 provides software installation, installation verification, and return-to-service instructions for the following GTN 6XX/7XX software components:

- GTN 6XX/7XX Main Software Version 3.00
- COM Software Version 2.10
- NAV Software Version 6.02
- NAV FPGA Version 1.1
- WAAS Software Version 5.0

When a GMA 35 is installed in combination with the GTN, the following GMA software update is required for the audio panel to remain compatible with GTN V3.00:
- GMA 35 Software Version 2.20
The GMA update is provided on the same SD card and is performed via the GTN.

This dealer provided update is covered under warranty for the labor amounts identified in the bulletin until Dec. 31, 2013.

The software installation and verification procedure and the return-to-service test procedure require that the GTN 6XX/7XX be installed and connected to all antennas and other auxiliary devices like the GMA35 audio panel (when installed).

We are discussing whether or not there is a possibility of providing updates to GTN units removed from experimental aircraft where full return-to-service testing would not be possible.

Thanks,
Steve
 
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g3xpert said:
The software installation and verification procedure and the return-to-service test procedure require that the GTN 6XX/7XX be installed and connected to all antennas and other auxiliary devices like the GMA35 audio panel (when installed).

We are discussing whether or not there is a possibility of providing updates to GTN units removed from experimental aircraft where full return-to-service testing would not be possible.
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Steve,
Would it be possible just to make the software available to us somehow? Then we could perform the return to service checks. To be honest I'd rather take the whole plane to the avionics shop, as time consuming as that will be, to insure everything involved with the install is completed rather than some partial, work-around install for us E-AB folks.
 
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Auburntsts said:
Steve,
Would it be possible just to make the software available to us somehow? Then we could perform the return to service checks. To be honest I'd rather take the whole plane to the avionics shop, as time consuming as that will be, to insure everything involved with the install is completed rather than some partial, work-around install for us E-AB folks.
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Todd,

My problem is that both the local Garmin dealers are at airports I'm prohibited from flying into until After Phase I. I was hoping to get the update installed prior to entering Phase II. This makes taking the plane to them impossible for several months. I suspect many EAB folks are still in construction with the config module already mounted in the rack or are in a phase I.

Steve,

I am pleased that Garmin is looking for ways to get through this issue with us EAB folks. I'm anxious to hear the solution.

Bob

Bob
 
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rleffler said:
Todd,

My problem is that both the local Garmin dealers are at airports I'm prohibited from flying into until Phase I. I was hoping to get the update installed prior to entering Phase II. This makes taking the plane to them impossible for several months. I suspect many EAB folks are still in construction with the config module already mounted in the rack or are in a phase I.
Bob
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Bob,
I get it. If they can come up with a solution that allows the update to take place at the shop without a config module, great. But if the module is required then it seems to me there's only two options: a DIY update if there's a way to get the software or take the plane in.
 
g3xpert said:
We are discussing whether or not there is a possibility of providing updates to GTN units removed from experimental aircraft where full return-to-service testing would not be possible.

Thanks,
Steve
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Steve, any word on how this can be handled? I am about to go pick up my unit and wait until I can take the whole plane if this can't be done on the bench.
 
CharlieWaffles said:
Steve, any word on how this can be handled? I am about to go pick up my unit and wait until I can take the whole plane if this can't be done on the bench.
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Hello Mark,

Thanks everyone for your patience.

We have reviewed the service bulletin, held some dealer discussions, and completed some additional software update testing on a bench without the aircraft installed config module present.

We believe that many Garmin dealers will be capable and willing to perform updates on GTN 6XX/7XX units removed from experimental aircraft. As mentioned previously, where the GTN is being used with a GMA35, both the GTN and GMA will need to be returned together for the updates.

The configuration verification and return-to-service testing specified in the service bulletin that those performing the update will be able to perform on the bench should suffice to assure that the software updates were successfully applied per the service bulletin and the unit is in a condition ready to be re-installed in the experimental aircraft.

The service bulletin says nothing about requiring a config module for the update, and in fact it is recommended that those performing a bench update make sure that a config module is not present in the harness as this could affect the System ID used by the GTN for database identification. The proper System ID should be restored when the unit is re-installed with the proper config module, but keeping the System ID from ever changing is good practice.

Please contact your Garmin dealer and verify that they are able to provide this service. Our experimental customer support group (contact information below) is prepared to answer dealer questions on this service bulletin if needed.

Let us know if you have questions or need our assistance in any way.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Ok, so I called the shop with my GTN 750 and passed along your information Steve and this was the response after trying again:

I ran the update on your 750 per the service bulletin and everything except the Nav Board and FPGA updated. Garmin tech support said that it is because there is no config module associated with the unit when it is out of the aircraft. So unfortunately that part of the update will need to be completed with the unit installed with the config module.

In looking over the SB the instructions do assume the unit is in the aircraft. I think what the Garmin tech meant in his email is that a DIFFERENT config module would mess things up.
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So does that mean this was an incomplete upgrade or is there indeed an issue about not having the config module from the cage available?
 
Mark,

We are working with your dealer to understand what happened.

We don't think the failure to update is a result of the missing config module, but need to investigate further to understand.

Thanks,
Steve
 
CharlieWaffles said:
Ok, so I called the shop with my GTN 750 and passed along your information Steve and this was the response after trying again:

I ran the update on your 750 per the service bulletin and everything except the Nav Board and FPGA updated. Garmin tech support said that it is because there is no config module associated with the unit when it is out of the aircraft. So unfortunately that part of the update will need to be completed with the unit installed with the config module.

In looking over the SB the instructions do assume the unit is in the aircraft. I think what the Garmin tech meant in his email is that a DIFFERENT config module would mess things up.

So does that mean this was an incomplete upgrade or is there indeed an issue about not having the config module from the cage available?
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I don't know what is going on with your shop (so I won't speculate), but we just upgraded two more units today (and a bunch earlier in the week) with all of the unit updates fine....all of them with NO "config module attached". I'm not entirely sure your dealer interpreted the technical part of the SB the same as we did in regards to it needing a config module and needing to be in the aircraft, nor can I know what their procedure was whilst doing the update so I can't comment on why your update is not compete; but it shouldn't have been an issue.

We've verified a number of times that you do NOT need the config module hooked to the box to get the software to update successfully. In fact, I think it'd be worse to do it with a config module attached (at least from a bench perspective).

I don't mean to flame anyone nor stir a hornets nest, but this does go to show you that one dealers attempt does not mean everyone will have the same experience - and also that folks shouldn't jump to conclusions based on the feedback of a singular experience until the entirety of a situation is taken into account. I wanted to post the details sooner, but also wanted to wait until I could verify our experience - which we did this week. Also, even the "return to service testing" is something a competent shop should be able to quickly and easily do on their bench for your unit.

We're just having people send the boxes in to us (or bring them in), the update just takes a jiffy to load the software and do a quick checkout on the box.

Just my 2 cents as usual.

Cheers,
Stein
 
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Stein, you are correct as usual. My shop just called and after working with the Experimental desk at Garmin they were able to do the upgrade. They are a reputable dealer and well known for avionics on the certified side of things. They worked quickly with Garmin and my unit is now ready to pick up.
 
Good deal Mark, glad it worked out!

Great job Garmin Experimental Guys...and this was not even your department! :)
 
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