S

skelrad

Well Known Member
Friend
I may not be able to start building my RV quite yet, but I CAN start getting my shop ready! I need help figuring out how I should light the place. I have a 3 1/2 car garage (2 car wide with an extra bay+ in back). I plan on putting most of my workshop in that extra space and need to add lights and outlets. There is currently a single bulb in each bay of my "shop", and I'm planning on using that wiring to put in fluorescent fixtures, but I don't know how many I'll need to adequately light the space.

Measurements are in the image. Ceilings are 10' high, there is a 2x5 window on the long wall (above head height), and half of the walls are currently drywalled. I plan on insulating and drywalling or putting white peg board up on the other walls. You'll have to excuse the spills on the garage floor in the picture (shameful, I know) - we bought a foreclosed house and the evidently the past residents didn't care to keep it clean. I have since scrubbed the floors and will be epoxying it next spring.

http://s913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/bryostdc/?newest=1

So, any ideas of how much light I need? Along the same lines, the garage is currently on a single 15 amp breaker and only has a couple of outlets. At minimum I will add in a couple more 120v outlets on that circuit. I would love to add another breaker or 240v, but the wiring will have to be pulled from the breaker box on the opposite side of the house through a basement with finished walls and ceiling. Not something I'm looking forward to doing if I can get around it. Will I be okay on one circuit, or do most people have multiple circuits to handle the load from tools? If my lights work and my compressor (I'll probably try to buy a 120v) runs, that should be most of the current I draw at one time, right?

Any ideas would be helpful.

Thanks!
Brandon
 
Brandon -

Over the area of about a one-car stall, you're going to want 4-6 four foot light fixtures -at least. The more the better. Alternate the lateral spacing as well so that you get good lighting on both sides of the project, as well as the top.

As far as the outlets, to run any respectable sized air compressor, you'll need to add at least a 20 amp 120v circuit. My compressor will run on a 15a, but sometimes when it's cold it will trip the breaker when starting up.

ff
 
I'm not lighting engineer but I started with a 3 car garage with 2 builder installed flouresents. About 10 ft finished ceilings.

I installed 10 dual bulb flouresents in the 2 bays that I used when I started the project. This provided a good level of lighting. By the end of the build, I was using the whole garage and wished I had installed additional lights in the 3rd bay. The fixtures are roughly 3 feet apart.

I had an electrician wire mine with 5 fixtures per switch. I also had a 220 outlet for the compressor put in at the same time.
 
Light it up

You really can't have too much light. My shop is about 20' x 26' and I have three rows of 2-bulb 8' lights (9 fixtures) -- and I've never regretted installing them. An electrician/builder friend of mine helped me with the lighting decision before I started building the RV. Aditionally, the walls & ceiling are sheet rock and painted white to help reflect light.
 
Lighting bright enough and spaced well enough to enable you to work shadow-free can be a challenge.

I think before using that single bulb to enlarge the lighting, you'd better establish what else is on the circuit.. wiring can be interesting in that respect.

In my shop, I have outlets every three-to four feet all around fed by four GFCI breakers of 20amps rating. I also went the extra mile and have installed two 240volt outlets for compressor, welder, heater. Here in upstate NY, the heater is a must and the 240V will cost far less to run than the 120V.

I also have one of those 'dock' lights (bright lamp on an expandable, flexible arm) for close work on one of the benches.

So, how did I get all that wiring in place? I installed a subfeed breaker unit first thing.. breakers are accessible in case of something popping one.
 
More electricity

You probably could build, light, and do other stuff in that big garage with a single 15 amp circuit, but you will pop the breaker occasionally and it is on the other side of your house. My advice is to run 220VAC to a sub-panel in the garage. You can then have all of the outlets and lighting you need, run a compressor and a heater etc. It will add real value to your garage. I was in the same boat as you and thats what I did. It might seem like a pain to do this, but as part of the whole project (building an airplane), it is not a big job!
 
Sounds like a sub-panel might be the way to go. I was hoping to get away from having to run more wire from the existing box just because it'll mean cutting through a partially finished basement, but if I have an electrician do that part, I can easily wire the rest of the garage from the sub-panel myself. That would give me the flexibility to branch off of multiple circuit breakers for my tools and pull a higher voltage line for a compressor and heater.

Anybody have any good sources for cheaper fluorescent fixtures? Some of the big box stores seem ridiculously expensive. Maybe worth finding on ebay as long as balasts are good?

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Brandon
 
Brandon -

First of all, I grew up in Madison, so you have a great winter-time activity planned! I also used to do some lighting design, and even have some electrical experience.

Wiring
On those walls that are still open, install a duplex outlet every other stud or so. The National Electric Code says that they must be placed so that they are within 6 ft of anything you are plugging in; howerver experience says you want more. Since this is a shop, I suggest running 12/2 NM (romex) and using 20A outlets. You could even run 12/3 NM and split the top and bottom of each outlet into separate circuits.

As others have said, you should also install a 20A 220V outlet in one or two places for an air compressor, etc. I installed 2 of these in my garage, each on a separate circuit, because I also have a large table saw.

As you drill holes thru the studs, be certain to install "notch plates" (metal plates) over each stud to prevent nails from puncturing the wiring.

And in Madison I highly recommend that you get a permit from the city for the wiring. They are kind of nazis about permits; however the electrical inspectors are actually quite friendly and gave one of my friends a lot of advice.

Insulation
You didn't ask; however I recommend insulating all those walls to make the family happier about the noises you will make in the evening.

Lighting
As someone else mentioned, paint eveything white. Really helps!

I do not recommend 8 ft fixtures, because they use industrial-grade ballasts and are much noisier as a result. Use 4 ft fixtures -- preferably with electronic ballasts (greener, more light per watt because they are more efficient). I personally hang them a foot or two off the ceieling, because even these hum a bit. That way you are not turning the ceiling into a sounding board that transmits the hum.

If you can space 2-light 4 ft fixtures about 3-4 ft on center, you should be in good shape. Alternate them on separate switches, so that you can run only half the fixtures when that's all you need. Saves electricity, and more importantly in the summer less heat will be generated.
 
I have a two car garage with two 4-bulb troffers. I also have a two buld fixture over the workbench. If I were to do it over again, I would put 4 troffers up. I recommend two 4-bulb fixtures per bay and an additional fixture over the workbench. FYI, Lowes sells the 4-bulb units with a 6' whip and bulbs for around $40. Home depot does not have the same deal.
 
skelrad said:
Sounds like a sub-panel might be the way to go. I was hoping to get away from having to run more wire from the existing box just because it'll mean cutting through a partially finished basement, but if I have an electrician do that part, I can easily wire the rest of the garage from the sub-panel myself. That would give me the flexibility to branch off of multiple circuit breakers for my tools and pull a higher voltage line for a compressor and heater.

Anybody have any good sources for cheaper fluorescent fixtures? Some of the big box stores seem ridiculously expensive. Maybe worth finding on ebay as long as balasts are good?

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Brandon
Click to expand...

You can get 4' for as little as $7.00 at both Lowes and Home Depot. (bulbs not included) They aren't listed on the web site, but I've found them in the local stores. Nothing fancy, minimal reflector, two 4' bulbs, standard AC outlet, w/ no switch. I've got eight in my two car garage and wish I had a few more.

Not knownig the floor plan of your house, you may want to consider a couple other out of the box solutions. Can you go up into an attic, then back down into the garage? Or perhaps out a back wall and run conduit under an eave and into the back of the garage? Not pretty, but it won't tear up the finished ceilings.
 
Lets review a few things here.

You live in Wisconsin. That is going to mean a cold winter. I see un insulated stud walls, and a window, thus this is an exterior wall. Maybe two?? Also, they are dark colored.

As was stated above, run the wiring in the studs, put in a lot of boxes. Then, insulate and sheetrock, and paint it white. You will need half of the lights than you need for the dark walls in the photo.

I suggest 4' florescent units, cheap, easy to fine, and bulbs are cheap. If you are going to build in a workbench, install a couple of lights just for it. As this is at the rear of the garage, do you need a light switched at the front, so you can find your way back to the shop?? Switch the shop lighting in the shop area.

I think two rows of lights parallel to the long axis of the space is best, put them about 1/3 of the width in from each long wall. You could switch each bank by itself, or a single switch, whatever you prefer.

A sup panel setup as described above is best, just do it. Also, if you are going to run 220v for an air compressor, think about where you want the noisy thing to eat up space at. If there is a way to NOT put it into your shop area, that will be best.

Think about overhead pull down reels for power, and air.

As long as the walls are open, TV, phone, Computer, intercom, music, or other wiring is easy to do.

Think about a heater-----what ever you prefer, now is the time to install the wiring, or plumbing as needed.

Good luck, thanks for giving me a chance to spend your $$$:D
 
Yep, I'd be insulating the entire garage after I figure out all of the wiring. A heater is on the list too.

I am a little torn now - when I start to add up all of the things I'd have to do to get the garage in good shape to be comfortable for working year round, I start to think that maybe relocating to the basement might not be a bad idea. I've got a full basement that we don't use for anything else at this point. The previous owners drywalled and wired it for a couple of rooms, but it is not useable for living space as-is (without patching drywall, installing flooring, finishing bathroom, etc). It's a walk out basement with multiple windows and a sliding door, so access is good. I'm contemplating moving my work area down there since it's already climate controlled. Noise might be an issue, but I don't think it would be any worse than being in the garage.

Hmmm, what to do, what to do...
 
What Mike S said. Painting all the walls white really brightens the place up. Then go for a lighter color (light gray?) epoxy paint on the floor, and you really start approaching that "NASA clean room" look. Do a search here for epoxy painted garage floor to see all the benefits of that.
As for the basement idea, first question is, will you be able to get the big pieces (fuselage, wings) out when completed?

Doug
Seattle area
-4, wings
 
seward747 said:
As for the basement idea, first question is, will you be able to get the big pieces (fuselage, wings) out when completed?
Click to expand...

I think everything is small enough to get out of the sliding glass door (I'm sure I'd have to remove the fixed side of the door when I was ready to move the fuselage out). If not, that'd obviously help me make the decision of where to build!
 
Lights/workshop

Just my opinion here but I think that if you can locate in a workshop/basement, that is greatly preferred to the garage. First off, you can equip it exactly as you want - ie., your RV factory. Have an electrical sub panel installed - at lease 220V and at least 50 amps - mine is 70 amps. Do it right or have it done right (under permit). Use larger wires than required and there will never be ant circuit breakers to reset. Make sure that you have up to date GFIs installed everywhere.

Secondly, you still have your garage to be used as a garage. My ex-wife filled up our garage and it became useless. It's pretty clean now.

Put up insulation in the ceiling and walls - the more the better. Your workshop will be warmer and less construction noise will get into the rest of the house. Put up drywall and paint it with white or a color of your choice - stay away from the darker colors.

If you want to do woodworking, you still have the back of the garage for that use. If you have a lot of space then it is smart to locate your metalworking and woodworking equipment in different rooms. Best regards, Ed
 
Why do u need an electrician? Is this a permit requirement or can you do this work yourself? Electrical work is pretty easy and fun and once you know how you can use your new found skills for future projects. Then again I did double the size of my house with my own bare hands...:)

Frank
 
frankh said:
Why do u need an electrician? Is this a permit requirement or can you do this work yourself? Electrical work is pretty easy and fun and once you know how you can use your new found skills for future projects. Then again I did double the size of my house with my own bare hands...:)

Frank
Click to expand...

No, I probably don't NEED an electrician to run the wire to the sub-panel, but it's a job that I would not look forward to doing. It's one of the few times that I'd rather pay someone else to crawl around and drill awkward holes than do it myself. Once the nasty wire run is done, I'd take over the easy part of wiring the garage from the new box.
 
I have my lights just a little different. I have 4 bulb 4' fixtures. I have four of them in a two car garage. I wired them on two switches so that each switch turns on 2 bulbs in each fixture, not hard to do as each pair of bulbs in the fixture has their own ballast. This allows me to light the whole garage with one switch just to look around or do minor stuff, or turn both switchs on for better light. I probably wish I had six fixtures instead of four though.
 
Electrician may not be needed

(not a shot at anybody here) but, IMO, you should go thru the permit/inspection routine even if you are an electrician. At least in this (overtaxed and underachieving state), it may save you headaches in the future.

Stringing Romex is pretty simple and wiring in general is pretty simple IF you either know what you are doing or have the help of someone who really knows what they are doing. As a retired firefighter, I have great respect for electricity and for those who install it into buildings (electricians).

Permit/inspection procedure will cost you more time and $ but installing a sub-panel is a major home improvement.

At least around here, if you ever sell the house, you will be asked to sign a piece of paper as part of the selling legal work that states that you have not done any unpermitted/uninspected work to the house. In this state, once you so state in writing, you are pretty much on the hook if anyone gets hurt/killed by you unpermitted/uninspected installation. And if you sign that paper that you have done no unpermitted/uninspected work (and you have), you are very much on the hook if either they check for Building Permits or if someone gets hurt or worse. Believe me, 220V or 120V @ 50 or 70 Amps can kill or injure severely.

I too am building a house essentially by myself but it is totally permitted and inspected by the local Building Inspectors. This doesn't totally free me from later litigation but it goes a long way towards doing so.

I have a good electrician help me plan and then check my work prior to having the Building Department Inspector inspeection. This gives me great piece of mind.

Of course, there are areas in the US where all of this is not required and I'd love to build there but my work would be very well done (as it is here) because I would live in that house. YMMV.
 
re: licenses

I am a licensed electrician. I have learned, in the past 30 years, that a lot of inspectors don't have a clue what the codes really are. The code book is just like the Bible, it's how you interpretate it. If you know an electrician and trust him, use him and don't worry about permits and inspections. The way I see it, permits are just another way for city government to get into your pocket for no real good cause. It's kind of like going to the IRS and asking them to "check over" your tax return. If anyone wants to talk to me about inspectors, give me a call, but you'd better have your flame suit on.:)I don't have just a whole lot of respect for inspectors.
As far as lights and receps. I'd install a 60-100 amp sub-panel in the shop area. I used 3 8' 2 bulb high output cold weather fluorscent fixtures in my 16' X 32' building room. I have plenty of light. You can't have too many receps. I used 2 gang boxes with 2 duplex receps in each, about 4' off the floor and 6' apart. I even put a couple receps in the ceiling for those "in the middle of the floor" needs like a retractable light or extension cord. Put the light fixtures on one circuit and I think the other receps are on 3 circuits. You won't be pulling a big load on everything at once. Put a dedicated circuit by that one window for a widow unit a/c then in the winter it'll work for plug in heater. You might put your compressor on a dedicated circuit. Then all the rest of the receps could go on one circuit.
GFCI's? Don't get me started on these.

Marshall Alexander
 
I had too much light in my garage

I had too much light in my garage briefly.

24 foot wide garage, two rows of six 4', 2-tube T8 flourescent fixtures, electronic ballasts. I included 2 x 14" light tubes from fresnel lenses on the roof (watch the clearance from the tube to the rafters to mount the diffuser :-(

I ran the rows 4' from one end, to the other wall, on two switches. 8' from side walls, 8' between. I didn't switch the rows separately, but lengthwise, halves of the garage.

Gloss white on the ceiling, semi gloss white on the walls.

When I turned on the lights for the first time, I understood that I could have too much light. I had to work with sunglasses to stand it for long. Without the sunglasses, it was painful.

However, I did not change the lighting. I added the work tables, shelving around most of the garage, two large work benches (none white), and filled up the shelves. Still bright, but nowhere near as bright as it was. I don't use the sunglasses indoors any more.

So, after brief, temporary regrets, I'm back firmly in the "you can't have too much light" camp. Include a switch to turn some of them off, if you wish.

-Regarding insulating: I'd add vapour barrier if you haven't planned it.

I'm in Saskatchewan and winter is considerable here. I used 2x6 walls, vapour barrier, R20 fiberglass wall/R40 ceiling, and 1" styrofoam "cladmate" insulation outside. The slab is sitting on 2" of styrofoam insulation, and was noticably different from the old garage.
 
I used two sets of high output florescents in a 2+ car garage and loved it. I never had any issues with not having enough lighting.

Now if you're going to paint finish coat...
 
Lighting

I notice that you are in WI, and hope that you have a plan for heating the garage in the winter. One concern with the typical florescent lights is that they don't light as fast or as brightly when the garage is cold. I live in Colorado, and for that reason I installed a dual 8 foot fixture in my 2-car garage and another over in the 3rd stall. With those two fixtures I have plenty of light output. I purchased the high output bulbs that are designed for cold weather. Even when the garage is extremely cold before I fire off the heater the florescents fire up nice and bright. Before I installed them I had the regular old 4 footers with standard bulbs, and they would fire up when cold and have almost no light output. High output, cold tolerant 8 footers are the way to go.
 
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