[prkaye]

This may be an old horse that has been flogged before, but I'm really interested in hearing what people think is going to happen in 5, 10 or 20 years with respect to aviation fuel, and what we as builders can do to protect ourselves.

1) AVGAS will eventually disappear, or at least get so expensive that it's out of reach. It may not happen for 50 years or more, but it's bound to happen, since oil is a non-renewable resource.

2) Diesel also comes from oil - do we expect it will be around for a lot longer than AVGAS? Why? When oil runs out (or gets too expensive), this should affect all petrolium fuels, right?

3) I've seen a couple of companies (Delta-Hawk, Wilksch) making diesel engines that they say can be put into RVs. Some aren't quite available yet, some don't have firewall-forward kits yet... do you expect that these options will become a lot more commonplace in the years to come? How soon? Do you think RV builders will have good diesel options with complete installation kits in 5 years?

Be very interested to hear people's thoughts on this topic. Is anybody else worried that by the time they finish their RV they won't be able to fly it because of out-of-control fuel prices??

 

[Brian Denk]

Not going away, but getting more pricey

I think it will be around at least as long as I'm able to fly, but will become more costly than it is now. So, that said, it may cause folks to fly less and burn less, which...could mean lower production rates and availability issues....? Who knows? I wouldn't let it slow down your project. Can't stress out over things over which you have no control over anyway. Enjoy building the plane, and power/fuel it with whatever is available when you get to that point. We may be burning french fry grease eventually. Bio diesel seems pretty neat to me. It would totally redefine the "$100 hamburger flight".

You want FRIES WITH THAT?

 

[brianwallis]

does anyone have a diesel engine in rv?

Anyone have a diesel engine installed in any rv?
Thanks
Brian Wallis

 

[aelkins]

RV-4 with turbine (alternative to avgas)

A friend is building a RV and is leaning towards an Innodyn turbine engine.
Here is a link to their video of a RV-4 fitted with their turbine.
Overall, its a nice application.

They claim it will use Diesel, Kerosene, and/or Jet-A
Safe bet if the fuel market ever gets tight.
http://www.innodyn.com/aviation/action.html

 

[Joey]

I'm hoping for some two-stroke engines running biodiesel.

The most likely scenario is most airplanes will be modified to use automotive gasoline.

 

[N395V]

A friend is building a RV and is leaning towards an Innodyn turbine engine.
Here is a link to their video of a RV-4 fitted with their turbine.
Overall, its a nice application.

They claim it will use Diesel, Kerosene, and/or Jet-A
Safe bet if the fuel market ever gets tight.
http://www.innodyn.com/aviation/action.html

If your friend is in his early 20s he may see a production Innodyn about the time he gets his first Social Security check.

That is if Social Security and Innodyn both still exit.

 

[brianwallis]

sma/182/rv-10

The SMA diesel fits in a 182.... I dont see why it would'nt fit in a RV-10... I'll get some specs for it... one of my friends is a dealer.... I dont see Innodyne comming out soon with anything. Their fuel burn will be about twice what they thought it would be. Thus no sales//// I dont think SMA will sell the engines to experimental people..... dunno...
Brian
ps... I bet it would fit in a -7a

 

[rv8ch]

Auto Fuel

If you are worried about avgas availability, just get an engine that runs on mogas, like an auto conversion, or a slightly lower compression lyclone. If auto fuel stops being available, flying your RV will be the least of your worries.

 

[Dave_Boxall]

Wilksch WAM-120

Anyone have a diesel engine installed in any rv?
Thanks
Brian Wallis

I have a Wilksch WAM-120 sat on the floor of my workshop waiting to hang on my RV-9A (just a couple more jobs to do on the firewall). We hope to be ready to fly around Christmas.

There are several other folks fitting this engine to 9's and the first one should be flying this summer.

Dave

 

[gmcjetpilot]

No worries

1) AVGAS will eventually disappear, or at least get so expensive that it's out of reach.

2) Diesel also comes from oil - do we expect it will be around for a lot longer than AVGAS?

3) I've seen a couple of companies (Delta-Hawk, Wilksch) making diesel engines that they say can be put into RVs.

Is anybody else worried that by the time they finish their RV they won't be able to fly it because of out-of-control fuel prices??

Don't worry. Not sure where you get your data from. If you want to be a gasoline expert Wikipedia to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline

The part where it gets too expensive is a matter of personal tolerance, but it should be available.


If you can't get car gas you can't get Avgas you can't get Jet fuel, diesel or LPG. So availability is one thing cost is another.

Would diesel save you enough to justify the $50,000 engine (or what ever it cost). The weight may be such that cost may be moot for the RV? That is another thread you can search.

I am not worried, but your kids or their kids might get worried.

Build and fly the plane you want with the engine you want. Lycoming is hear to stay and a pie in the sky engine is not worth waiting for. The diesel thing sounds interesting on paper but in fact I think there are some issues with power to weight and cost.

Here is a scan of fuel prices around the US. Any one can do a search for gas prices nation wide.

Avgas avg $4.28 min $2.90 max $7.05

Mogas (auto) avg $3.17 min $1.75 max $5.10

Premium (auto) avg $3.35 min $x.xx max $x.xx

Diesel (auto) avg $2.92 min $x.xx max $x.xx​

You can see aviation gas can be cheaper than premium car gas or MOgas (automotive gas you can buy at the airport). It can also be more. I would frankly not be flying at $7.05 a gal on principle. At fast crusis of 8gal/hr that is almost a Buck-O-minute.

Looking at the average AVgas tends to always be about 75 cents more. Some times a dime or two either way. This relationship has always been there. It is just a matter of volumn not materials. Diesel tends to be a little cheaper may be due to less refining cost or lower grade crude is needed (I am guessing).

 

[Deuskid]

...<snip> Diesel tends to be a little cheaper may be due to less refining cost or lower grade crude is needed (I am guessing).

I've driven VW TDIs for ~ 3 years now and diesel is generally 10% less than gas in the summer and 10% more in the winter due to heating oil demand.

Diesel does have about 15% more BTUs per volume [gallon] so you do get more bang for your buck plus turbo diesels are ~ 10% more efficient than the most efficient [and maybe 30% more efficient than the average] gas engine.

Gasses can burn alcohol [about 87k btus / gallon] but diesels can burn bio-diesel [ ~ 107k buts/ gallon]. Biodiesel has ~ 95% of the btus as dinodiesel while alcohol about 70% of the btus as gas and biodiesel produces ~ 2.3 btus for each btu consumed in conversion while alcohol is ~ 1.3 : 1 [at its best, some processes actually consume more energy than they produce [your tax dollars at waste...errhhhhh... WORK... ya that's it...:S..]]

All these numbers were from memory, prior research so I may be inexact but the principles are all right on.

Gelling could be an issue in the winter but there are additives to mitigate that problem.

John

 

[Pirkka]

Any one can do a search for gas prices nation wide.

There is something: http://www.tmdg.co.uk/misc/fuel.php but some of the data is pretty old -- so look carefully.

And for example now here in EFTU the avgas is about 1.75 euros/litre, which becomes about $8.6 US gallon. So don' t you cry about high fuel prices anymore... Car fuel (mogas) is about $6.9 US gallon.

(assuming 1 euro = 1.3 US dollars)