[wera710]

Ok, Batman, riddle me this...why do I read so often here that everyone wheel lands or lands tail low in the RV-8, as opposed to full stall and/or three point?

I've got about 40 hours on mine and most of the landings are full stall or three pointers just above stall. Typically using 20 to 30 degrees of flaps. With and without passenger.

Granted, I have 500 hours on a Luscombe so this is normal for me, but considering how easily she lands in this configuration, I do not get why the emphasis on wheel landings?

Wheel landings have their place and I've done 100s...but in a low slung bird like the -8, it seems like risking the prop for no reason just to do them as SOP.

Am I missing something? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[pierre smith]

Truth be known, Scott...

...you can do more consistent wheel landings than three-pointers. It really takes more finesse to do really squeaky three-pointers, so most just opt for wheelies.

On the bigger taildraggers, like P-51's, my Air Tractor and DC-3's, you seldom see them do three pointers either, for the same reason.

I always admire a nice, clean three-point squeaker though and we have a retired Viet Nam vet than greases his C-180 three-point at our EAA fly-ins.

Regards,

 

[jbDC9]

I like 3 point landings myself and used to do them all day long in Citabrias, Champs, Cubs, stuff like that. I've even been able to pull off decent 3 pointers in an RV-4... but my RV-8 just doesn't like 'em and I can't explain why. Mine has a carbed O-360 and a C/S prop with an aft mounted battery. I almost always land with full flap and am usually solo; I've tried 3 pointers in it but it seems like I run out of up elevator and it just feels... kinda squirrelly. I've done solo partial flap and no flap landings for practice, and the tail comes down easier, but still feels squirrelly. Even with a bubba in the back seat to help get the tail down, same thing. Squirrelly.

I dunno, maybe next time out on a calm evening I'll practice them again. But like Pierre said, I can consistently squeak it on with a wheelie (almost) every time, or wheel it on with the tail low. It just feels better that way... or maybe it's just me.

 

[Toobuilder]

Can you actually get the critical angle of attack in the 3 point attitude in the -8 and "stall"? I know that the -4 can't. Anyway, I've been landing the -8 mostly with wheelies, but did make an effort to do ONLY 3 points last night (and most were "squeakers"). While it is easy to land both ways, it is easy "er" to land consistently with a wheel landing. So in my situation, it's a case of being lazy and being conditioned to dealing with an ever present, gusty crosswind most of the time. If I ever need to do an extreme short strip I can do a 3 point, but with the comparative luxury of my huge 2600 x 30 pavement strip at home, a tail low wheelie makes more sense.

 

[Mel]

No!

Can you actually get the critical angle of attack in the 3 point attitude in the -8 and "stall"?

The stall angle of all RVs is quite higher than the 3-point attitude. To properly 3-point an RV requires an "attitude" landing.

 

[Toobuilder]

Right... That's what I suspected. I have only a handfull of 3 points in the -8 but it never "paid off" on any of them.

Come to think of it, I'll bet any taildragger with long enough gear to actually stall in the 3 point attitude is pretty rare.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Wheel landings have their place and I've done 100s...but in a low slung bird like the -8, it seems like risking the prop for no reason just to do them as SOP.

Am I missing something? Inquiring minds want to know.

Unless you really slam dunk the landing I don't think you are putting the prop at risk in an -8. It would take a substantial nose down attitude to get the prop close to the ground provided the gear hadn't been compressed by a very abrupt arrival.

The -6 is even lower than the -8 and I find wheel landings to be more consistent. The use of full flaps puts the plane in a good attitude for wheeling it on the runway with the tail slightly low. But maybe you feel better with three-pointers due to the particular CG range/speed/runway length/etc/etc with which you routinely fly.

Whatever works.

 

[David-aviator]

It was my experience, limited as it was when my machine had a tail wheel, there is no such thing as a full stall 3 point landing.

The thing landed tail wheel first every time.

 

[Scott Hersha]

I used to do more wheel landings in my '8 too - until recently. I had been wearing my tires out faster doing wheel landings. I find the RV-8 doesn't do a good smooth 3 pointer as well as my RV-6 did, I assume because of the much stiffer gear. Most of my flying has been formation stuff and a wheel landing is the way to go here (section landings, or maintaining spacing on the guy behind you). Wheel landings tend to be done faster and that's why I'm going through tires faster - plus the toe-in is pronounced in this case. I'm hopeful my tires will last a little longer using the slower 3 point. If you do a full stall 3 point landing in an RV-8 you will land tail wheel first - same with the RV-6.

Scott

 

[Crossbow]

The stall angle of all RVs is quite higher than the 3-point attitude. To properly 3-point an RV requires an "attitude" landing.

Thanks Mel!



I figured it was something techinical like that since I see so many people doing two wheel landings in their tail dragger RVs. I will keep that fact in mind when I (eventually) get my RV-8 flying.

 

[Danny King]

Wheel Landing the 8

If you are worried about a prop strike, the next time you are in your hanger, position you prop vertically and raise your 8 up by the tailwheel stinger until your tailwheel is high above your head and look at the prop clearance.

You would have a full view of the ground in the windshield before you would get a prop strike. That is simply not a problem in the 8.

Like others, the Doll simply doesn't like to three point. I make her do them when stopping distance is critical. She just wants to "Dance Around" after a three point, but she will wheel on like the Mustang she is was painted after.

I let an old Mustang pilot take the Doll up solo, and I advised him to just do wheel landings. He ignored my advice and keep trying to get a nice three point. After he full stopped with a perfect wheelie, he ask why won't this airplane three point? I said I don't know, but I love how she wheels on.

Tire wear???? Fix your toe in and you tires will last years! I wore out the original Aero Trainers in a year and 130 hours. I installed shims to correct the toe in and the next set lasted over three years.

 

[wrgway]

FWIW

Not sure about the 8 but most of the 4's had the older short gear on them which made a 3 point landing difficult at best as the wing stalled out with the mains still @ a foot off the runway and the tailwheel just coming in contact with the surface. This usually caused a series of embarassing pogo's before the whole thing calmed down. Funny thing after 16 years in the 4 I now have a 7 which my daughter (a low time tail wheel pilot) can land 3 point better than I. It's hard to break old habits.

Don Riggs

 

[Toobuilder]

...Not sure about the 8 but most of the 4's had the older short gear on them which made a 3 point landing difficult at best as the wing stalled out with the mains still @ a foot off the runway and the tailwheel just coming in contact with the surface...

...But not all 3 point landings are "full stall"; the terms are not interchangeable, right? Just like with a wheel landing, a 3 point is done with the airspeed kept (just) high enough to allow you to zero out the descent rate at touchdown. As the speed bleeds off in rollout, the lift diminishes and weight is transferred to the wheels - but the wing never is "stalled". The only real difference then is the angle of attack and resulting speed at touchdown: higher/slower for a 3 point; lower/faster for a wheelie.

My neighbor had a -4 for a number of years and he always 3 pointed it, but due to the stubby mains, the touchdown speed was much higher than the stall speed.

 

[Bubblehead]

160 hours now in my -8...

...and it still wheel lands easier and more consistently than 3-point. It seems to just sneak on a little tail low. I can now do 3-pt landings pretty well but the tail wheel touches first and if I am not slow and careful bringing the stick the rest of the way back the nose will drop the last foot!

Like Danny, I find wheel landings stay undercontrol better than 3-point. I seem to need to do a lot of dancing on the rudder pedals when landing in the 3-pt although the lower speed is helpful.

Hit the right airpseed on short final and the tail low method works pretty nice.

 

[flyguy44]

Here's another opinion...had a 4 for 12 yrs. & always landed 3 pt. Its so light, I had to slip and straighten up over numbers (fixed pitch prop). I move to an 8 three yrs ago and bounced every attempt! the bird dropped like a rock even from 2' off the ground. Wheel ldgs. were tough at first, but now I love the view and don't let tail down til I have to. Oh yeah, made perfect ldg. @ Oshkosh in 18k direct crosswind. The A models in our 37 ship formation were sharing comments about how many 'ldgs' it took them to plant it. 3-4 was common. Think I may try a few 3 pts. again, but haven't figured it out yet.

 

[grantcarruthers]

I hope this isn't too stupid a question but what are the perils, if any, of touching tail first in an attempt at a three point? I know it's happened a few times in my -4 and never seemed to be an issue. That doesn't mean it's a good idea and I'm left wondering what the issues are.

 

[Ironflight]

I hope this isn't too stupid a question but what are the perils, if any, of touching tail first in an attempt at a three point? I know it's happened a few times in my -4 and never seemed to be an issue. That doesn't mean it's a good idea and I'm left wondering what the issues are.

If you hit tail first with enough vertical velocity, then the mains are going to come down next with a bit of a slap, and you can end up porpoising. While you'e doing this, the directional control can be a little sporty, as the mains spring around, and the tail bounces.

 

[wera710]

By full stall, I actually mean full stall. She literally will drop out of the sky the last inch or so if I do not time it right, so yes, the aircraft actually stops flying right about the time the wheels touch. Plenty of elevator left.

I never use full flaps for 3 pointers. I have noticed, as stated above by aother poster, that the 8 tends to get squirrely for a second in that configuration in full stall. She also seems more prone to bound up again, unwilling to just settle in. Where as with 30 deg she is tame and gentle.

With 30 degs she sometimes gives a waggle but only for a second, as as I said, 500 hours in a Luscombe, its nothing. God gave us FEET for a reason. lol.

The RVs need so little rudder in flight I sometimes wonder if this is why so many folks wheelie them? They're just not used to dancing feet? If often wondered if this was because so many transition fron NG to right into an RV TG?

I started this thread because I wondered if I am setting myself up for a problem since the predominent view is to wheel land the 8. So I really appreciate the feeback.

To give more info on configuration, my 8 has an O-360 with Hartzell CS up front and a Concorde RG battery aft of the rear baggage. The ELT is also located back there. She weighs 1086 empty.

Generally, when solo, I am using 20 degrees on final and if dual, 30 degrees. No reason to use all the flaps unless I am worried about running out of runway.

Essentially, as I cross the fence we are looking at about 65 knots. I flair just enough to hold her wings level, slight nose high, and then hold her off the ground as long as possible. As she starts to slow and settle, I transition to a three point attitude and she just sinks on nicely. Occasionally I get a little waggle and on one or two occasions the tail touches first, sometimes she shutters in stall just as the tires touch. Mostly she touches down just before the stall. If I totally screw up, she will stall about 6 inches off the runway and that is always good for a laugh from the PIPS. Pig in the Passenger Seat. Doesn't happen often...

I think my aversion to wheelies has to do with the Luscombe. She sits so TALL on the gear you can plant her hard on the mains, tail high with some forward stick and never come close to the prop. That attitude in the 8 would be cutting it close. lol. So even my wheelies are tail low. Its all perception of course.

Which is why I asked in the first place. Is pilot perception driving the wheelies or is technical limitations driving them?

 

[Toobuilder]

IMHO, it's not a technical limitation. The airplane does both equally well (at least the one I fly). What it comes down to I think, is what the pilot is comfortable with. For me, the -8 is harder to 3 point than wheel, but that is relative because in either case, it's still much easier than any type landing in my Hiperbipe. With that said, most of the time I simply take the "easy way out" and wheel the -8 on if the conditions allow the slightly longer landing rollout.

 

[wera710]

LOL. And its nothing compared to a PITTS. I was awed the other day at Sky Manor in NJ. As we were leaving a guy came in in a Pitts S1 and held that sucker EXACTLY one inch off the runway in a three point attitude, until she settled in. I aspire to that level of proficiency! Was amazing to watch considering how many botched Pitts landings I have seen over the years. Some downright frightening. But this guy...WOW.

 

[Toobuilder]

LOL. And its nothing compared to a PITTS...

I have not flown a Pitts (yet), but do have friends that have substantial time in the Hiperbipe, Pitts and Eagle. It's reported that the Pitts is not that much different in handling (on landing) than the HB, but the lack of visibility (in the Pitts) on short final makes it a bit tougher. The Eagle, on the other hand, is easier than both.

The thing many people don't realize about "Pitts type" airplanes is that they are not "difficult" to fly at all - they simply do exactly what you ask of them, and they do it immediately. Just as a pilot coming from a spam can to a RV is likely to need some adjustment to the more responsive controls, so to is the new Pitts pilot. But there are few airplanes out there that are truly "difficult".

In any case, learning to fly a "nightmare" of an airplane early in your career certainly changes your perspective on all subsequent airplanes you may strap yourself into!

 

[Alan Carroll]

CG?

To give more info on configuration, my 8 has an O-360 with Hartzell CS up front and a Concorde RG battery aft of the rear baggage. The ELT is also located back there. She weighs 1086 empty.

Essentially, as I cross the fence we are looking at about 65 knots. I flair just enough to hold her wings level, slight nose high, and then hold her off the ground as long as possible. As she starts to slow and settle, I transition to a three point attitude and she just sinks on nicely. Occasionally I get a little waggle and on one or two occasions the tail touches first, sometimes she shutters in stall just as the tires touch. Mostly she touches down just before the stall.

Scott,

Just curious, what is your CG when solo? My plane is configured like yours, except that I have the battery on the firewall. There's a noticeable difference between landing with 25 pounds in the rear baggage, vs. no ballast (about 1" difference in CG). With the rear ballast 3-pointers seem pretty straightforward. With no ballast, I find them more challenging to do smoothly. Wheel landings are fairly easy in either configuration.

 

[sandifer]

In any case, learning to fly a "nightmare" of an airplane early in your career certainly changes your perspective on all subsequent airplanes you may strap yourself into!

Yep, after a little Pitts time, getting back into an RV-6 felt as sedate and lulling as a 172...I mean this in a good way. It was also nice to be back in an airplane that you can see out of. Regarding the Pitts, I've said it before - there are no "hard" to fly airplanes, just ones that are different from what you're used to. The Pitts just happens to have some extreme characteristics (minimal visibility, power off descent rate, and directional sensitivity on the ground) that combine to make it very much different from pretty much anything else. But once you get used to it, it's just another airplane.

I think the RV-8 may just be one of those planes, like a Stinson 108, Swift, and DC-3 that just naturally wheel on more consistently. Likewise, it's very unlikely you'd ever witness someone wheel land a Pitts S-1 with the original bungee gear.

 

[n5lp]

Land leaning

...a guy came in in a Pitts S1 and held that sucker EXACTLY one inch off the runway in a three point attitude, until she settled in...

A technique I like but have never seen anyone else do is handy for wheel landings and three pointers. It is for those situations where you are inches from the runway skimming along. If you want the airplane to land right now and smoothly, just gently lower the gear to the runway on one side. There is no tendency to bounce this way, and as soon as the one gear touches it slows the airplane down enough that the other side wants to smoothly touch also. I get way more greasers this way than just sitting there waiting to see what the plane is going to do.

Yes I know that it would technically be a one pointer or two pointer then, but you know what I mean.

 

[Toobuilder]

...If you want the airplane to land right now and smoothly, just gently lower the gear to the runway on one side...

I agree! Use the first tire as a "feeler" - When it touches there is no way for the tail to drop and cause the increase in AOA resulting in a skip. I do this ALL the time... It's a great way to "cheat" and make yourself look better than you are!

 

[Andy Hill]

As ever, different landing techniques are worth learning for different situations. We operate off rough grass, so you need 3 point, Full Flap just to minimise the groundspeed on touchdown. Whereas a hard surface, in a crosswind, begs for a wheeler

Solo issues: Hard to get tail down if the CG is fwd of ~80".

Stall: We tend to get buffet (off the gear fairings?) if you get the attitude just right or high - and I see no issue if a 3 point landing just brushes the tailwheeel first. I am not sure the RV-8 will allow you a real tail first attitude unless you are "hanging on the prop" - you'll be in the high drag / stall area which is getting dodgy

Just my 2c's worth

Andy

 

[wera710]

Alan, I mistyped my empty weight. It is 1071. I run about 200 to 215 lbs depending on how good the wife cooks that month.

My Solo CG's:
w/ 42 gal, no baggage: 81.02
w/ 8 gal, no baggage: 81.17

Generally, with half tanks or more, she comes in nose heavy but can be trimmed out nicely with plenty of elevator left. I can not imagine what it would be like if the battery was up front. As it is, I am never as happy with full fuel and no passenger when I first pull power. Takes a fair amount of trim to bring the stick to a comfortable level of pressure. I've marked my trim indicator with two different sets of markings for Solo and Dual.

Andy, you can definitely land on the tail first, nose way high, with a CS prop and a guy in the back. A buddy landed mine that way once with me back there. He is a RV-6 Pilot and the perspective is totally different over the nose. He flared to what looked right for his -6...Lets just say I thought my butt was going to grind off before the mains hit. lol.

 

[Alan Carroll]

Alan, I mistyped my empty weight. It is 1071. I run about 200 to 215 lbs depending on how good the wife cooks that month.

My Solo CG's:
w/ 42 gal, no baggage: 81.02
w/ 8 gal, no baggage: 81.17

Generally, with half tanks or more, she comes in nose heavy but can be trimmed out nicely with plenty of elevator left. I can not imagine what it would be like if the battery was up front. As it is, I am never as happy with full fuel and no passenger when I first pull power. Takes a fair amount of trim to bring the stick to a comfortable level of pressure. I've marked my trim indicator with two different sets of markings for Solo and Dual.

Scott - my empty weight is about the same (1074), but solo CG without ballast and full fuel is about 79". Within Van's limit, but not by much. For solo landings I'm always trimmed full nose up (and wish for more). I can get to 3-point attitude (barely), but it requires some stick pressure to do so. With a passenger its a different airplane.

Were I doing it again I'd put the battery in back, but its not enough of a problem to make me want to change now.