Status
Not open for further replies.
strahler13

strahler13

Well Known Member
I've been contemplating posting this thread for quite some time. I feel there should be some sort of disclosure for posters who sing the praises of new equipment, if they received free goods or discounted pricing. I thought James Clark did an excellent job of this as shown here:

"i fly behind three GRT Sport displays.

Also, In the spirit of full disclosure, GRT is a sponsor of Team AeroDynamix with whom I am affiliated."

James
__________________
James E. Clark

A few "super posters" carry a lot of weight here in the forums. If they are getting deeply discounted items, and then talking about how great they are, I feel a disclosure as to the true pricing should be made.

I know for a fact that some large suppliers are miffed at the de facto free promotion, as they do not discount at all, preferring to keep prices low for all.

And while I'm at it, I have voiced my pleasure on this site with the performance of my Trig transponder, which, by the way, I got a fantastic deal, as I'm good friends with the owner of the manufacturing plant. It performs flawlessly, and I would have paid full retail if needed.

There, now I feel better...
 
I completely agree and asked the question before. We are spending big bucks on systems here and we deserve to know how bias a poster is. If a person got a discount or other considerations, that should be disclosed.
 
strahler13 said:
I've been contemplating posting this thread for quite some time. I feel there should be some sort of disclosure for posters who sing the praises of new equipment, if they received free goods or discounted pricing.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. I don't need to know what someone paid for a product, but I would appreciate knowing if someone is getting preferred pricing and/or support in exchange for being a pitchman or a high profile early adopter.

I have personal knowledge of a vendor which routinely prodded its first customer to publish favorable reviews in this space, with the implication that over-the-top factory support would be available on a quid pro quo basis.
 
strahler13 said:
I've been contemplating posting this thread for quite some time. I feel there should be some sort of disclosure for posters who sing the praises of new equipment, if they received free goods or discounted pricing. I thought James Clark did an excellent job of this as shown here:

"i fly behind three GRT Sport displays.

Also, In the spirit of full disclosure, GRT is a sponsor of Team AeroDynamix with whom I am affiliated."

James
__________________
James E. Clark

A few "super posters" carry a lot of weight here in the forums. If they are getting deeply discounted items, and then talking about how great they are, I feel a disclosure as to the true pricing should be made.

I know for a fact that some large suppliers are miffed at the de facto free promotion, as they do not discount at all, preferring to keep prices low for all.

And while I'm at it, I have voiced my pleasure on this site with the performance of my Trig transponder, which, by the way, I got a fantastic deal, as I'm good friends with the owner of the manufacturing plant. It performs flawlessly, and I would have paid full retail if needed.

There, now I feel better...
Click to expand...

Mark,

First thanks for the kind remarks.

Second, although in the post, I was not singing praises of GRT, (I was commenting more on how the question was framed), I **also** feel that it is important for me to say the following ...

I and the majority of the members of Team AeroDynamix have for years had the GRT equipment (that we purchased at FULL PRICE) installed in our planes. The majority of us made the GRT choice, based on merit, BEFORE there was any relationship with the team and thus a deeper relationship was a logical step (as I have even mentioned "offline" to some major suppliers on this forum).

I even had long discussions with Greg about product features long before the product saw the light of day.

So, even though I obviously believe disclosure is a very good thing, I want everyone to know that I and other team members do NOT say good things that we do not really believe. And if asked questions, you will find that we are also brutally honest. In the business we are in, that's just how we roll.

Finally, it should also be known that at least three other brands are in team member planes, decided up and purchased by the individuals.

Just thought I needed to put that out there as well.

James
 
Thanks for posting Mark

I am glad someone finally brought this up. It seems to be happening more and more even in some of the magazines as well.
 
sign of the times? or economy?

Aerosport1 said:
Thanks for posting Mark

I am glad someone finally brought this up. It seems to be happening more and more even in some of the magazines as well.
Click to expand...

...boy, I'm really NOT used to seeing a pirep in Sport Aviation, with a HUGE ad right beside it...for the product they are reviewing.

I guess that's how publishers 'roll'. :rolleyes: ....and pay the bills.

I guess one day, really savvy advertisers will hire me to say how much MY seat cushions or GPS or video cam sucks, thereby making theirs look better!?!?

( by the way, I could use a nice interior upgrade, and a GPS, and an 'action' cam. Just sayin'! :D)
 
Just Wrong!!!!!!!

....This thread applied to as stated "a few super posters" on this venue is ridiculous. I for one don't believe for one minute that anyone who has a reputation and the respect of intelligent people on this forum would prostitute their opinions to save a few dollars on a product. Nor talk negatively about something because they paid full price for it. I would venture to say that one couldn't pay them to lie about anything product or service related. To ask these respected people for full disclosure is virtually the same as saying, Not sure you possess any integrity so I will d-value or ignore your testing or opinions. I would be ashamed and embarrassed to even ask a respected forum member such a question. As applied to this forum, it would only serve to arm some paranoid, negative naysayer with information to potentially discredit a respected, knowledgeable posters opinion. I will concede that magazines do this all the time. Advertising after all pays their bills, not you reading the statements in it. Do not treat this forum as if it were an infomercial or some equivalent. In our other businesses we are offered products and equipment for testing and evaluation sometimes valued into the thousands. Would I lie about their performance or my satisfaction? NO! That defeats the whole purpose and serves no purpose. If you feel the same, say so, and show your favorite "Super Poster" that you value their efforts and integrity. Thanks, Allan...:D
 
Last edited:
I hesitate to comment on this, but I have seen this before as well (I know of a specific case myself, but don't want to single anyone out). Allan, I think The scenario you described is not what the OP was talking about. I agree no one that I know of on this forum would intentionally mislead people by posting a favorable review about a product just because they received a special deal.

Instead I think a person's decision to install or use a certain product may be partly influenced by the fact that they received a special price (or at no cost). There is nothing wrong with that. It's perfectly natural to want to get a deal. I think when it might be seen as a problem by some is when others decide to purchase the product based on this person's decision without knowing about the special deal with the product vendor.

I know it's kind of a gray area, but I think the point is valid. Also, in the spirit of full disclosure, we once provided a customer a free upgrade to our new (at the time) version of a product because they were going to have their plane displayed very prominently at a large show, and we wanted as many customers as possible to be able to see our new product in person. Asking that people simply disclose this information as general practice on the forum seems reasonable to me.
 
I agree completely with Mark Strahler and I believe the full disclosure will actually give their endorsement much more credibility.
 
Luke D said:
I hesitate to comment on this, but I have seen this before as well (I know of a specific case myself, but don't want to single anyone out). Allan, I think The scenario you described is not what the OP was talking about. I agree no one that I know of on this forum would intentionally mislead people by posting a favorable review about a product just because they received a special deal.

Instead I think a person's decision to install or use a certain product may be partly influenced by the fact that they received a special price (or at no cost). There is nothing wrong with that. It's perfectly natural to want to get a deal. I think when it might be seen as a problem by some is when others decide to purchase the product based on this person's decision without knowing about the special deal with the product vendor.

I know it's kind of a gray area, but I think the point is valid. Also, in the spirit of full disclosure, we once provided a customer a free upgrade to our new (at the time) version of a product because they were going to have their plane displayed very prominently at a large show, and we wanted as many customers as possible to be able to see our new product in person. Asking that people simply disclose this information as general practice on the forum seems reasonable to me.
Click to expand...

....Firstly we were discussing a product evaluation as being influenced by the price or the lack thereof. I personally do not believe the theory pans out any more than paying full price for a product could result in a bad review because one didn't receive special pricing. If a vender places a product out for review or testing to a credible person or entity the financial arrangements have nothing to do with the outcome of the tests. Underwriters Laboratory, Consumer Reports, FDA, Insurance institute Etc all test and review everything you put in your mouth, play with, drive, wear, look at and purchase. The financials and details have nothing to do with the outcome of the tests and shouldn't even be a consideration. When I saw a guy driving a new Corvette and made the decision to get mine, what he paid for his is of no consequence. Perhaps "they" paid him thousands to take it, drive it, so I will see it. If this has any impact on me it can only be envy or jealousy. Either one has nothing to do with the quality or performance of the car or my decision to purchase. Displaying ones products in a place of prominence is what it is all about in the real world. There is no difference if it is a customers airplane or the venders airplane displaying the wears. The owner of the aircraft in not a known, unless you research it. I think this is nothing more than a smoke screen to hide some issues that perhaps could be better addressed in a support group than on this forum. Thanks, Allan..:D
 
Oshkosh 2013

I have a very nice RV-3B that i would like to do a panel up grade to before Oshkosh this year. Is there any vendor out there that would like to step forward and give me a smoking deal on the items? I will have it there all week if you do and there will be full disclosure and many write ups here. Hey, you don't ask you don't get!:D
All kidding aside I agree with the full disclosure, wait I'm not kidding i relay do want to re do the panel soon.
 
Absolutely!

I feel full disclosure actually benefits everyone - the poster, the vendor, the reader. If the relationship is known, then it becomes a fair representation - i.e. other vendors of similar equipment are not unfairly represented (they might choose to give deals/sponsorships or just depend on their quality products). Anyway, disclosure allows the readers to know if the builder/poster chose the product/service due to a relationship or not. Then one is not left to wonder whether this builder/poster is questionable (sometimes it appears someone really likes something or knows an awful lot about it...) or is in some way affiliated and really does have an "in" with the company. I think this makes what is posted more legitimate/valid/useful!
My 2 cents (okay, maybe 4 cents).:D
 
I fully agree with this concept, but there is a flip-side.

Let's say Dynon gave me a great deal on a SkyView setup, I disclose as such during a rave review of it. Will you as readers of this review believe I am being genuine or is there a risk of being viewed as biased because I got a good deal?

That will come down to the reputation of the reviewer - if there is one. Personally, I never truly believe a review where I know, or suspect, the product has been supplied at below retail. There's always that niggling feeling there that makes me wonder if the reviewer is under pressure to write a good review as a favour for getting a discount.

That's the good thing about the VAF, and the advertisers here, as besides supporting DR, too many VAFers have purchased products and offered their comments on them for all of these people to have got a great deal, so the comments here I feel are more representative than a review in a magazine.

My comments here about various vendors have not been influenced in any way by discounting, better after-sales support or any other form of kickback. I've just had good service from them. The sad fact is I'm not important enough to be offered a discount. :p
 
Big Problem !!!!

...If one doesn't trust the posters review, how could you possibly trust the full disclosure information he or she would provide? Perhaps what is needed is a full disclosure on the full disclosures and a monitoring arm of big brother to ride on the issue. But they of course will be exempt from full disclosure. This is a ridiculous concept! It can only get worse, I quit! ...:rolleyes:
 
Wow!

My dislike and disagreement with this threads original premise is deep and profound.

Asking for full disclosure is like saying Mom and apple pie are good things and clearly no one can argue against, Mom, Apple Pie, or the concept of full disclosure. But>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This thread starts with:
a few "super posters" carry a lot of weight here in the forums. If they are getting deeply discounted items, and then talking about how great they are, I feel a disclosure as to the true pricing should be made.
Click to expand...

Now in my head I have a list af folks I percieve as "Super Posters" .

I do not think any of them have misled anyone on product reviews nor caused someone to make a huge purchase of an item that tuned out to be unsatisfactory. But the premise of this post could make me wonder "are some of the folks on my superposter list dishonest? Well I thought about this for awhile and decided, in my mind, that this is not really a problem here on VAF. then I see the following in another post:

Thanks for posting Mark

I am glad someone finally brought this up. It seems to be happening more and more
Click to expand...

Now my superposters, once again could be suspect??? Certainly not???

Then I see the following and I am back to worrying:

I hesitate to comment on this, but I have seen this before as well (I know of a specific case myself, but don't want to single anyone out).
Click to expand...

Hmmmm, so we have definitive proof that someone is posting bogus product rave reviews in return for payola.

Then the frosting on the cake is:

I know for a fact that some large suppliers are miffed at the de facto free promotion,
Click to expand...

Well all I can say is, that while it is always difficult to call out someone in public who misbehaves, lies, cheats, or steals it is absolutely innappropriate to cast a wide net of aspersions that result in suspicion being cast upon a large and largely innocent group of people.

So I ask those of you who made the above comments suggesting that this is a problem on VAF. Step up to the plate and take the heat by:

Telling us
1. Who are the super posters that are guilty of this?
2. If you have seen it before and know of a specific case here on VAF give us the evidence here in public. We need to know to protect ourselves.
3. The very first comment in the first post suggests that superposters are misleading us. Who are they, what did they do, and what is your evidence.
4. Who are the vendors that for a FACT are miffed? Tell us here in public so we can either assuage their fears or address the problem if it really exists.

Has anyone out there made a large expenditure on an item they were displeased with and feel they were hoodwinked by lies from a "superposter" who was paid to befuddle you with embellished information.

If a gang of 4 people commit a murder and then seek refuge in a crowd you don't fire a shotgun at the crowd, you go in, single out the gang members and accuse then punish them publicly.

Accusations are cheap, show us the proof, the facts, and tell us who the offenders are. Innuendos are cheap, mean, and dangerous as they often lead to lynching an innocent person.:mad:
 
N395V said:
Wow!

My dislike and disagreement with this threads original premise is deep and profound.

Asking for full disclosure is like saying Mom and apple pie are good things and clearly no one can argue against, Mom, Apple Pie, or the concept of full disclosure. But>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This thread starts with:


Now in my head I have a list af folks I percieve as "Super Posters" .

I do not think any of them have misled anyone on product reviews nor caused someone to make a huge purchase of an item that tuned out to be unsatisfactory. But the premise of this post could make me wonder "are some of the folks on my superposter list dishonest? Well I thought about this for awhile and decided, in my mind, that this is not really a problem here on VAF. then I see the following in another post:



Now my superposters, once again could be suspect??? Certainly not???

Then I see the following and I am back to worrying:



Hmmmm, so we have definitive proof that someone is posting bogus product rave reviews in return for payola.

Then the frosting on the cake is:



Well all I can say is, that while it is always difficult to call out someone in public who misbehaves, lies, cheats, or steals it is absolutely innappropriate to cast a wide net of aspersions that result in suspicion being cast upon a large and largely innocent group of people.

So I ask those of you who made the above comments suggesting that this is a problem on VAF. Step up to the plate and take the heat by:

Telling us
1. Who are the super posters that are guilty of this?
2. If you have seen it before and know of a specific case here on VAF give us the evidence here in public. We need to know to protect ourselves.
3. The very first comment in the first post suggests that superposters are misleading us. Who are they, what did they do, and what is your evidence.
4. Who are the vendors that for a FACT are miffed? Tell us here in public so we can either assuage their fears or address the problem if it really exists.

Has anyone out there made a large expenditure on an item they were displeased with and feel they were hoodwinked by lies from a "superposter" who was paid to befuddle you with embellished information.

If a gang of 4 people commit a murder and then seek refuge in a crowd you don't fire a shotgun at the crowd, you go in, single out the gang members and accuse then punish them publicly.

Accusations are cheap, show us the proof, the facts, and tell us who the offenders are. Innuendos are cheap, mean, and dangerous as they often lead to lynching an innocent person.:mad:
Click to expand...
....I agree with you 100% on this and will offer a cash incentive! With full disclosure of course to the big whistle blower. Allan...:D
 
I agree with the civility comment. I, and I think the majority if not all of the posters here hold integrity as one of the highest values a person can have. As for the internet as a whole there are certainly a lot of misleading evaluations out there and it can take lots of time to sort fact from fiction. On this forum, where lives are potentially at stake, to say nothing of the time and hard-earned monies involved, I think this group would take anyone to task for posting misleading or false reviews. I know I certainly count on the honesty of this group.
And most, if not all, of the advertisers on this forum don't really need any "favorable posts." Their products speak for themselves. If they aren't right, this group doesn't buy. In some cases, such as Allan's most recently, when word gets out, it is hard to keep up with orders.
As I tell the leaders in my organization, respect is earned, not given. :)

Vic
 
N395V said:
I hesitate to comment on this, but I have seen this before as well (I know of a specific case myself, but don't want to single anyone out).
Click to expand...

Hmmmm, so we have definitive proof that someone is posting bogus product rave reviews in return for payola.
Click to expand...

Hi Milt,

After re-reading the original post, I think the part about the "super-posters" is what caused some problems. The RV community is fiercely proud of the quality of it's members, and for good reason. I've dealt with RV builders for the last ten years, and can tell several great stories about the honesty of those I have dealt with. I think some read the original post as a negative comment on some member's integrity.

The reason I wouldn't single out the person in the specific case I mentioned is that they didn't do anything wrong. I don't feel that they mislead anyone. Maybe I should have explained that more clearly. If you read the sentence I wrote right after that though, I think you can see what I was trying to say. All they did was receive a special deal without mentioning it along with their other comments about the product. I think your comment about my post was meant to be tongue in cheek, but just to be clear, it's not what I was saying at all.

As Doug has said before, I'm sure this whole conversation would be different if everyone was sitting around face to face. Things get lost with this method of communication. It's worse than a Three's Company episode. Speaking for myself, I certainly had no intention of questioning anyone's honesty.
 
pretty close to killing the goose I would say

Wow, I am amazed. We have a nice number of manufacturers bending over backwards to support Experimental aviation. All of these manufacturers have a presence here; where else in this life do you have direct access to a manufacturer's engineering personnel? In most cases the super posters, that I am assuming are being referenced here, are actually alpha and beta testers for many of the manufacturers. Qualified beta testers are critical to a manufacturer's research, development programs. Without all of the significant quality control efforts put forth by the manufacturers and our super posters, a.k.a. beta testers, we wouldn't have the leading edge products that we do. Trust me, good beta testers can't be compensated enough by the manufacturers. In most of the cases I know about the best beta testers only compensation is the sense of satisfaction they get from being involved with helping to refine something they truly believe in.

I really would like to see this thread go away before we kill the goose that laid all of these golden eggs.
 
Last edited:
Perceptions

Part of the issue is perception. I know of several so called "super posters," who are no better builders than many of the "quieter" builders. So, there becomes a perception that because they have posts into the 1000's that they are superior builders. And, as a result, some companies are lead to these people by the perceptions.

I don't think they are being dishonest about their evaluations of the products. However in exchange for the freebie or deeply discounted item the supplier is expecting a favorable review. Additionally, I think the negative stuff is what we really need to know.

I don't think those that get free or discounted stuff want people to know that they did. Over the years several have been "provided" with equipment but I have never seen that disclosure.


( This is not the case, I have seen several instances of posters disclosing preferential treatment and freebies.....MC N395V)

In summary, it is a fact of this industry that some will be given equipment to test and evaluate. I'm in agreement with the OP that there should be disclosure when posting a review or evaluation of said equipment.

Great topic.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think some of you need to disconnect from the Internet for a while. You're taking this stuff far too seriously. If you haven't figured out yet that Internet forums are not places to go for absolute truth and integrity, then you need to let someone else handle your finances. Look at this place as the virtual water cooler down at your local airport. You wouldn't take some guy you've never met's word for $20k worth of purchases there, so don't buy a panel based on some stranger's opinion in here either. Being capable of writing a believable sentence doesn't necessarily mean he knows squat about electronic design. Do your own research.

Calling for full disclosure? Seriously? How would you enforce that exactly? How would you verify the disclosure? [ed. Sentence about POTUS and gun control removed. Rules please. dr] Utopia does not exist. People lie.

There are two words that should guide you through the Internet:

CAVEAT EMPTOR

If you're not living by that....well, there is another saying made just for you:

There's a sucker born every minute.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.