flyinga

Well Known Member
I've searched the forums and haven't been able to find an answer to my question: What is the minimum tank fuel you can have during a hard slip that will not cause possible fuel starvation? Have any of you done this scientifically or am I going to have to do it myself?

I was in a hard base to final slip with 5-10 gallons remaining in the low wing and got a "low fuel" warning on the Dynon and the gage for that tank showed 1 gallon ramaning. I stopped the slip so it was a non-issue.

Thanks,
 
That's going to depend greatly on exactly how the pickup tube is placed in the wing and how the holes are cut in the dip tube, so the answer really is "it depends". Even flop tubes may not land in exactly the same place each time.
 
Greg, You are of course correct about aifcraft variations. I guess I was just looking for the easy way out. Guess I'll have to do some experimenting.
Thanks,
 
I've searched the forums and haven't been able to find an answer to my question: What is the minimum tank fuel you can have during a hard slip that will not cause possible fuel starvation? Have any of you done this scientifically or am I going to have to do it myself?
Why do something of such questionable benefit / airmanship?

Just select the "high" tank frst ;)

PS And I speak from experience having learnt that lesson the hard way, as did those below treated to a few nice backfires :eek:
 
I would complete my standard rate turn base to final before I started my slip. Then if a slip is needed, and you have a carb, just go for it. You won't be in the slip more that a few seconds, and your throttle is closed at this time = low fuel burn, and you did turn on the fuel pump before entering downwind. Remember, you are only a few hundred feet above the ground with more altitude than you need to make the runway.

Test it. Go to 3-4K agl with 3 gallons in the lower tank. Slow down to approach speed, flaps, fuel pump on and throttle closed. Slip it for a thousand feet, see how long it takes and see if the fuel supply fails.
 
A matter of curiosity. With fuel tanks equal at some point it may be nice to know that a slip (an airmanship tool in my opinion) is ill advised.
 
Hmmmmm

One of our group members did something like this a couple of weeks ago.

Slipped to the left on a low left tank, then did not understand why the engine would pick up when he applied more throttle. Then when he came out of the slip the engine picked up. He had decided he had enough height and speed to glide in then (so obviously he did not need the extra powere when he called for it)ank

So, the next thing he did was killed the engine rather than just pulling back the throttle........ so he left himself with no options at all..... he was now a glider.

Thankfully he pulled off the landing, then restarted the engine and taxied in.

Now!!! all of this could have been avoided by a bit of good airmanship. Simply by selecting the wing high tank before slipping and there is no problem..... so why deliberately try to cause one?

Our man now understands the need to select the higher fuel tank, but does not seem to comprehend the potential problem he caused by killing the engine rather than just closing the throttle????
 
Another good reason to have electric fuel pumps in each wing root, rather than the engine-driven fuel pump. Simply turn on both pumps and this situation can't happen.
 
Another good reason to have electric fuel pumps in each wing root, rather than the engine-driven fuel pump. Simply turn on both pumps and this situation can't happen.

You still need to switch tanks.

With stock configuration, it takes less than 2 seconds for engine to fire when valve is switched.
 
One of our group members did something like this a couple of weeks ago.

Slipped to the left on a low left tank, then did not understand why the engine would not pick up when he applied more throttle. Then when he came out of the slip the engine picked up. He had decided he had enough height and speed to glide in then (so obviously he did not need the extra power when he called for it)ank

So, the next thing he did was killed the engine rather than just pulling back the throttle........ so he left himself with no options at all..... he was now a glider.

Thankfully he pulled off the landing, then restarted the engine and taxied in.

Now!!! all of this could have been avoided by a bit of good airmanship. Simply by selecting the wing high tank before slipping and there is no problem..... so why deliberately try to cause one?

Our man now understands the need to select the higher fuel tank, but does not seem to comprehend the potential problem he caused by killing the engine rather than just closing the throttle????

1. Why would you add power in a slip?
2. Killing the engine????....:eek: only if it was not controllable.
3. Good airmenship needed.
4. Any time you are downwind, you should consider yourself a glider.
5. A distraction like selecting fuel tanks at this point might be frowned upon by your cfi.

Remember, during an engine out emergency landing, the slip will get you to your chosen landing spot. Not the engine.
 
On my rocket if I have tanks less then say 1/3 full I can get a rough running engine after 30 seconds of a hard slip. Release pressure and all is well. I think it is a good exercise to see how your individual aircraft reacts to these situations. Before the engine actually starts to run rough you have good indications from the fuel pressure sender that something is wrong. Keep in mind that my system is fuel injected and uses a high pressure boost pump. Carburetor equipped aircraft may behave differently.
Where could this happen to you? Imagine a situation where you are on a long cross country flight and are landing with minimum fuel in the tanks. Now throw in a stiff crosswind that requires you have to keep one wing low for a while. Strategies to use in these situations is to try and plan on having most of your remaining fuel in one tank and plan to have that wing high on final. Also use a wing level crab approach in high winds and bring it around straight at the last safest possible moment.
To repeat; it is a good idea to see how your aircraft behaves in these situations. It is not a good thing to find out on short final!
 
"To repeat; it is a good idea to see how your aircraft behaves in these situations. It is not a good thing to find out on short final!"

Agree! This is why I started this thread.
 
A carb has nothing to do with this. The fuel in the tanks un-porting the pickup is the issue. The same thing will happen with FI.

Actually, I think there is a difference with a carb. For one, the fuel bowl would be full of fuel at the beginning of the slip. With the throttle at idle, you're not burning much fuel, so it could be a significant amount of time before you would consume all of the fuel in the bowl. You might actually be better off with a carb in this situation, I believe. I think this is the point Gasman was making.
 
Actually, I think there is a difference with a carb. For one, the fuel bowl would be full of fuel at the beginning of the slip. With the throttle at idle, you're not burning much fuel, so it could be a significant amount of time before you would consume all of the fuel in the bowl. You might actually be better off with a carb in this situation, I believe. I think this is the point Gasman was making.

That's the way I read that as well, and followed the same thought lines. On a short slip (30-40 seconds) the fuel bowl will give you some extra time (until you either land or straighten up for the go-around) due to the low fuel flow.
 
A slip works in either direction. I look at my fuel selector before I slip and step on the rudder the fuel selector is pointing at.

-Andy
 
There's no need for a long slip anyway, for crosswind landings. Simply crab the airplane and go into slip mode during, or just before the flare...all of this OVER the runway.

Best,
 
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trap door in the tank bay...

The biggest benefit to the flop tube installation in normal operation is sealing up the extra holes and adding the trap door modification to hold fuel in the wing root bay. I have a flop tube and trap door on one wing and it works exceedingly well... wish that I had the trap door in both tanks but it is easy enough to manage for low fuel operation with it in a single flop tube tank.
 
I keep a minimum of 10 gallons(1 hr at 55% power) in one tank and do as others said, kick out the crab on short final. You can't always plan on having a landing where you will be slipping in the proper direction. I pick my fullest tank, crab it, then don't worry about it.
 
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Points to Ponder

The best thing to do is test and document performance for your specific airplane. However, baring that here are a couple of points to ponder for a stock (non flop tube) system built to plans:

BASELINE PRIOR TO TESTING

The fuel tank is designed with a ribs acting as baffles within the tank. This prevents sloshing to some extent and limits the impact of side-slip on fuel flow. However, no specific testing has been accomplished to determine sideslip effects on fuel flow, so it is recommended that as a general rule, uncoordinated flight or sideslip should be limited to 30 seconds in duration (or less) when the fuel level in the selected tank is ΒΌ full or less. Unusable fuel quantity may increase by an undetermined amount with the severity of sideslip. If a power interruption occurs during uncoordinated flight, the fuel pump should be immediately selected on (if not already on) and coordinated flight should be re-established.

The appropriate emergency procedure could be: 1. Coordinate flight; 2. Boost Pump - ON (if not already); 3. Fuel Selector - SWITCH TANKS (if desired).

Generally, for landing, gas should be selected to the fullest tank. Typically a slip correction to adjust altitude on base occurs to the "inside" of the turn, i.e., left turn, left slip (left aileron/right rudder), so you can think things through prior to beginning the base turn. As Pierre said, the optimal technique for slip to correct cross-wind doesn't occur until the final phase of the approach, so that shouldn't be a factor.

TEST CONSIDERATIONS

To test, you first need to determine your minimum fuel/reserve requirement. the FAR's specify 30 minutes for VFR and 45 minutes for IFR. Many folks use 1 hour. Generally, it's best if that reserve is in a single tank vs. split. Thus, fuel up the "test" tank with the desired quantity and takeoff/climb on the other tank. Switch to the "test" tank and fly the slip sequence at suitable altitude. You have two options: (1) you verify that the engine runs properly slipped to the "low" tank at minimum fuel; or (2) you continue to repeat the test at reduced fuel to determine at what point you will unport and cause starvation. If you choose the second option and do not have a fuel totalizer, you can switch back to the full tank after unporting occurs and measure the remaining fuel after landing. If your tanks are not the same configuration, i.e., one flop tube, one standard pick-up, then separate testing will be required for each side. You should only perform option (2) if you've already completed testing to ensure adequate restart after running a tank dry (this normally occurs during Phase I testing, but if there is any doubt, then you should complete this test prior). As Stephen said, the flop tube/trap door should offer an advantage (assuming sufficient fuel is in that tank).

AUTOROTATION EFFECTS

One other area to consider is spins. If you intentionally spin the airplane, unporting can be a factor with low fuel states in one (or both) wings. As a rule of thumb, the boost pump should be selected ON. Above normal reserves, unporting is unlikely, but if there is any doubt, the tank opposite the spin direction should be selected. Due to the rapid spin and positive recovery characteristics (aircraft loaded/tested/documented within Van's limits), if usable fuel remains in the unported tank, an "auto start" is likely as soon as the recovery phase is initiated, unless prop stoppage occurs. If not, it will be necessary to initiate an air start.

Fly safe,

Vac
 
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