[Dan_E_Root]

What functional tests or calibrations must be documented prior the FAA/DAR airworthiness inspection?

Something I saw the other day indicated that taxi tests should be completed, but I've not been able to confirm that in an official publication. I see the transponder should be checked, but not necessarily prior to inspection.

 

[JonJay]

I just had mine. I would say it depends on the DAR. I visited with my DAR on the phone and asked a lot of questions about what his expectations where. He had the attitude that if I was asking, I was engaged and concerned and he was very willing to work with me. The biggest thing is to have your paper work.
Your transponder does not need to be checked. It will need to be checked and signed off by an avionics shop prior to flying into airspace requiring its use, according to my DAR. He did not ask about taxi tests, but I had done them.
Good luck. Mine went smoothly. First flight, weather permitting, tomorrow.

 

[RV6_flyer]

Your transponder does not need to be checked. It will need to be checked and signed off by an avionics shop prior to flying into airspace ...

Read FAR 91.411 and 91.413. IF you have the equipment in the airplane, it needs to be tested every 24 calendar months. Yes this is something we must pay for and is part of the cost to fly in the air space.

IF you take the equipment OUT of the airplane for the inspection, it cannot be checked as it is missing. Most DAR's would rather the equipment be removed than have a placard saying "In Op".

 

[JonJay]

Read FAR 91.411 and 91.413. IF you have the equipment in the airplane, it needs to be tested every 24 calendar months. Yes this is something we must pay for and is part of the cost to fly in the air space.

IF you take the equipment OUT of the airplane for the inspection, it cannot be checked as it is missing. Most DAR's would rather the equipment be removed than have a placard saying "In Op".

My DAR did not take an issue with it, only told me it was a requirement to have it certified prior to entering airspace that would require it. Of the dozens of first flights I have witnessed, none brought in an portable avionics shop to test their transponders and all had them installed for the first flight. Non were placarded that I know of.
You might be right, but I am flying my 6 for its first flight tomorrow, with its uncertified, unplacarded, transponder, just like I dont know any different. Hope the Fed's arent watching these posts! I will fly my airplane to the nearest shop when I get the hours flown off, because as it stands right now, I can not find a shop that I am legal to fly into until my 40 hours are up due!

 

[johnp]

re: xpndr cert

fwiw, in 2001 i bought a c310 out of annual. the previous owner ferried it to my a&p/ia for annual. to make a long story short, there
was a gear collapse incident (while taxiing) on the first flight out of the chute. faa interviewed me & the comment was made that even though the xpndr was past inspection, since i hadn't flown in any airspace that required it, i would not be cited. don't know if this is sop or i just got lucky, but it happened.

 

[kentb]

Not needed for first flight, or DAR

Read FAR 91.411 and 91.413. IF you have the equipment in the airplane, it needs to be tested every 24 calendar months. Yes this is something we must pay for and is part of the cost to fly in the air space.

IF you take the equipment OUT of the airplane for the inspection, it cannot be checked as it is missing. Most DAR's would rather the equipment be removed than have a placard saying "In Op".

91.411 is an IFR requirement and you don't need that for first flight.
91.413 Does not apply unless you turn your transponder to ALT. I have been flying my in the ON position and have not used ATC so far. 10 months and counting.

Check with you inspector, but mine didn't require taxi test or even the engine to have been started. If I remember right I did make a log entry (under his direction) that the ELT had been tested (the direction for testing come with the ELT). He also wanted me to have a conditional inspection checklist that I had gone through before he came indicating that I had completed each task. I think that this was just his way of doing things and is not a requirement of the FAA.

The main thing is to talk to the DAR and see what he wants. After all it's his autograph that you are after.

Kent

 

[Mike S]

I am flying my 6 for its first flight tomorrow,

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!

Mike

 

[RV6_flyer]

Sec. 91.413

"ATC transponder tests and inspections.

(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or Sec. 135.143(c) of this chapterunless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and " ...



If you have the equipment installed, it must be tested and inspected to use it.

I am a DAR. I expect the inspection and test to be done when I get there. If it is not, you cannot legally use the transponder till it is.

See FAR 91.213 Inoperative Instruments and equipment.

FAR 91.215 ATC Transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

If you want me to do the initial airworthiness inspection of your aircraft and it has a transponder installed, I expect that it will have had 91.411 / 91.413 completed (depending on IFR or VFR Day Only limitations that are in the Operating Limitations I am issuing) before I see the airplane.

If the transponder is installed and it is not tested and inspected, I will tell you what you read above that you cannot legally fly the airplane and use the transponder till it has been tested and inspected.

Yes there are ways that you can operate the airplane without having the transponder tested and inspected. I have told you what you need to do if you do not have it tested.

If there is some way that you can fly using a transponder in your RV aircraft that has not been tested and inspected in the preceeding 24 calendar months, please show me how with a link to the data.

 

[tin man]

Its my understanding that if it is not on the MEL list and you are not flying in airspace that requires it you may simply label it inop and pop the appropriate ckt breaker.
Tom

 

[az_gila]

Safety

91.413 Does not apply unless you turn your transponder to ALT. I have been flying my in the ON position and have not used ATC so far. 10 months and counting.
Kent

Kent... the real disadvantage of this approach is that with no ALT report the TCAS system will not work on any large planes heading your way...

If you are operating anywhere near a busy airport with commercial flights this may not be a good idea from a safety (whatever the legality) point of view.

gil in Tucson - 20 miles from the center of Class C airspace

 

[Mike S]

Sec. 91.413

"ATC transponder tests and inspections.

(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or Sec. 135.143(c) of this chapterunless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and " ...



If you have the equipment installed, it must be tested and inspected to use it.

I am a DAR. I expect the inspection and test to be done when I get there. If it is not, you cannot legally use the transponder till it is.

See FAR 91.213 Inoperative Instruments and equipment.

FAR 91.215 ATC Transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

If you want me to do the initial airworthiness inspection of your aircraft and it has a transponder installed, I expect that it will have had 91.411 / 91.413 completed (depending on IFR or VFR Day Only limitations that are in the Operating Limitations I am issuing) before I see the airplane.

If the transponder is installed and it is not tested and inspected, I will tell you what you read above that you cannot legally fly the airplane and use the transponder till it has been tested and inspected.

Yes there are ways that you can operate the airplane without having the transponder tested and inspected. I have told you what you need to do if you do not have it tested.

If there is some way that you can fly using a transponder in your RV aircraft that has not been tested and inspected in the preceeding 24 calendar months, please show me how with a link to the data.

Gary, I clicked on the web site in your signature, and followed the link you have that talks about the requirements for an inspection------you have a link to the FAR's that took me to the following-----for the sake of space, I edited out the first part, but the important stuff is here below.

Read "C", item 3.

According to the info you supply in your website, I as the manufacture, can certify the transponder/pitot system myself.

(c) The tests and inspections specified in this section must be conducted by--
(1) A certificated repair station properly equipped to perform those functions and holding--
(i) A radio rating, Class III;
(ii) A limited radio rating appropriate to the make and model transponder to be tested;
(iii) A limited rating appropriate to the test to be performed;
[(iv) deleted]
(2) A holder of a continuous airworthiness maintenance program as provided in part 121 or Sec. 135.411(a)(2) of this chapter; or
(3) The manufacturer of the aircraft on which the transponder to be tested is installed, if the transponder was installed by that manufacturer.

Mike

P.S., you used the term "DAR" in your message, yet your web site says "ABDAR"--------please clairify the difference, thanks

 

[N395V]

(3) The manufacturer of the aircraft on which the transponder to be tested is installed, if the transponder was installed by that manufacturer.

So that would mean I can do it myself???

 

[az_gila]

Almost...

So that would mean I can do it myself???

Probably, if you can prove your test equipment and procedures are suitable to ensure the installation meets the requirements of the FAR....

gil in Tucson

 

[RV6_flyer]

Gary, I clicked on the web site in your signature, and followed the link you have that talks about the requirements for an inspection------you have a link to the FAR's that took me to the following-----for the sake of space, I edited out the first part, but the important stuff is here below.

Read "C", item 3.

According to the info you supply in your website, I as the manufacture, can certify the transponder/pitot system myself.

(c) The tests and inspections specified in this section must be conducted by--
(1) A certificated repair station properly equipped to perform those functions and holding--
(i) A radio rating, Class III;
(ii) A limited radio rating appropriate to the make and model transponder to be tested;
(iii) A limited rating appropriate to the test to be performed;
[(iv) deleted]
(2) A holder of a continuous airworthiness maintenance program as provided in part 121 or Sec. 135.411(a)(2) of this chapter; or
(3) The manufacturer of the aircraft on which the transponder to be tested is installed, if the transponder was installed by that manufacturer.

Mike

P.S., you used the term "DAR" in your message, yet your web site says "ABDAR"--------please clairify the difference, thanks

Mike:

Your quote is from the FAA FAR 91.413.

Manufacturer has an FAA Production Certificate or PMA approval. Do you have one? What does it say that allows you to do this?

You as MANUFACTURER of an Amateur-Built Aircraft, you cannot do the the transponder check. YOU do not have the required CALIBRATED test equipment. If you do and are an authorized FAA Repair Station, then you can. As a MANUFACTURER, you still need to be AUTHORIZED by the FAA to do the required test.

EAA "coinded" the term AB-DAR for Amateur Built Desigated Airworthness Represenative years ago. When I looked to purchase a URL, I picked ABDAR as DAR was taken by the "Daughters of the American Revolution" and I did not like the DASH in the URL.

I have a full time job. The DAR activites take place in my spare time. I do not have enough time for everything and as such keep raising rates and trying to speciallize in RV inspections as the RV bulders have been more ready for the inspection when they follow Van's plans and recommendations than many of the other homebuilders.

 

[RV6_flyer]

So that would mean I can do it myself???

Do you have an FAA Production Certificate that allows you to do the testing?

What calibrated equipment does the FAA Production Certificate say you will have?

What employees training is required by the FAA Production Certificate?

What test equipment calibration intervials does the FAA Production Certificate require?

 

[Mike S]

Thanks

Gary, thanks for the response.

What you are saying seems to be totally logical, and correct. Trained personnel using approved, calibrated equipment.

However, dont forget we are talking about the government here.

As I read the info in the FAR, it gives 3 ways that the certification can be obtained. Option 1 seems to be what you are referring to, but option 3 clearly states that the manufacture can certify.

And in the homebuilt world, AFAIK, builder = manufacturer.

Anyway, gotta go, time to head off to church.

Mike

 

[Mel]

Mike,
One thing you are confusing here. You are relating the FAA with logic.
The FAA's interpretation is that you as an amateur-built manufacturer do NOT qualify for transponder and/or static certification. It has been tried several times and each time FAA comes up with the same interpretation.
How do I know? I was one of the first ones to try it!

 

[Mike S]

Mike,
One thing you are confusing here. You are relating the FAA with logic.

Mel, exactly what I meant in my last post when I said "However, dont forget we are talking about the government here."

Yep, the feds can say one thing in writing, and then contradict them selfs whenever the result will lead to the desired end.

Thanks for the input.

Mike

 

[kentb]

Gil - I agree.

Kent... the real disadvantage of this approach is that with no ALT report the TCAS system will not work on any large planes heading your way...

If you are operating anywhere near a busy airport with commercial flights this may not be a good idea from a safety (whatever the legality) point of view.

gil in Tucson - 20 miles from the center of Class C airspace

I have not gone any near a field with a tower and won't until I get my pitot/static cert.

I am probably a little slower about getting all my testing done then most. I am only up to 50 hour on the meter now and still am working out small problems with the avionics. Until I know that my panel won't need to be changed I will delay getting the pitot/static check.

After all anytime that the static and pitot system are change the check will need to be done again. We all do that don't we?

Another point the discussion brings to mine is that the plane could have been built and made ready for first flight at a small airport without a service for doing pitot/static cert. In that case what do you do? Gary, Mel?

Kent

 

[Mel]

As far as I'm concerned the pitot/static check is not required for aircraft certification. That is a "flight requirement". I'm checking the aircraft, not the flying. If you do not have it done, I will caution you about the flying requirements. From then it's up to you. It's just like the night requirements. I don't certify the aircraft for night and/or IFR. That's between you and FAR part 91.205.
Remember, a DAR may ADD any restrictions he feels necessary.

 

[RV6_flyer]

To save bandwitdth, see Mel's post above.

I said about the same thing in an earlier post and gave a few tips about how to go about it.

Where I am located in SoCAL, there are places to test the transponder at almost every airport and there is one shop that will drive to you for the check. Most of the airports to test fly in SoCAL are just outside the Bravo airspace and many under Charlie airspace. If you want to test fly anywhere in this area, you really SHOULD have it done before flying.

 

[ddurakovich]

Another point the discussion brings to mine is that the plane could have been built and made ready for first flight at a small airport without a service for doing pitot/static cert. In that case what do you do? Gary, Mel?

Kent

I would guess that if you can get by the DAR, you will find someone at most Class D fields, and you do not need a transponder to get in there. Alternatively, get an immediate clearance (as an inop transponder) from ATC and go where you need to go to get the certification.

 

[az_gila]

Transponder System vs. Static System

I have not gone any near a field with a tower and won't until I get my pitot/static cert.

I am probably a little slower about getting all my testing done then most. I am only up to 50 hour on the meter now and still am working out small problems with the avionics. Until I know that my panel won't need to be changed I will delay getting the pitot/static check.

After all anytime that the static and pitot system are change the check will need to be done again. We all do that don't we?

Another point the discussion brings to mine is that the plane could have been built and made ready for first flight at a small airport without a service for doing pitot/static cert. In that case what do you do? Gary, Mel?

Kent

Kent ... the FARs only refer to a STATIC system check.

The initial check for the "Transponder System" can be a one-time system check - the radio shop check.

The check of the static system after work can be done by an Airframe Mechanic or Repairman certificate holder for the plane.

As I read it, if you are not "diddling" with the transponder wiring or antenna connections, then a new radio shop transponder certification check is not needed for work on the static system. All that is needed is a check of the static system per Appendix E (a) of Part 43.

This is quite simple, and makes sense....

(a) Static pressure system:

(1) Ensure freedom from entrapped moisture and restrictions.

(2) Determine that leakage is within the tolerances established in ?23.1325 or ?25.1325, whichever is applicable.

(3) Determine that the static port heater, if installed, is operative.

(4) Ensure that no alterations or deformations of the airframe surface have been made that would affect the relationship between air pressure in the static pressure system and true ambient static air pressure for any flight condition.

Just do the static check listed above every time you work on the static lines.. not really a big deal, and will make your airspeed read accurately...

If you want to be the manufacturer, the technical transponder system checks are detailed here...

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...:1.0.1.3.20&idno=14#14:1.0.1.3.20.0.363.14.49


gil in Tucson

 

[Dan_E_Root]

Well, thanks to one and all. I love this forum. My answer appears to be dependent upon what my DAR wants to see, but but it sounds like I'm good to go, without taxi tests, and without certs on transponder, pitot/static, or anything else at this time.

Looks like I'm ready to call FSDO Oakland or a DAR and make an appointment.

 

[RV6_flyer]

Here is a link to what EAA has to say about Transponder tests in your homebuilt.

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Transponder and Pitot Static Tests.html#TopOfPage