cjensen

cjensen

Well Known Member
I've been talking to Maciej in Poland for several months about putting a 220 Franklin on my 7, and they have agreed to meet with me at Oshkosh about doing firewall forward stuff for RV's.

No need to refer me to David Brand...I've been talking with him the same amount of time as well (he still LOVES his engine). He has put me in touch with Gary Stofer with an 8, who loves his as well.

The main reason for this post is to go over the numbers that were put up by Van's with their RV-8. I've been reading thru the 24 years of the RVator (currently sitting on my lap for reference), and the articles that were written actually show the engine to be very favorable, even by Van himself...

The name Franklinstine came from the lengthy installation, and has nothing to do with how the airplane performed.

First, engine weight...330 lbs for the Franklin...333 for the Lycoming IO-360-A1D6. The empty weight of the RV-8 was 1130...Their estimates were that the Franklin installed was 30lbs heavier on average.

Second, mods...there were a few, mainly cowl mods, but the original cowl was able to be used with one inch of length added.

Third, performance...the solo sea level weight climb rate was an ear popping 2850fpm (150fpm MORE than the IO-360!). Cruise at 8,000ft was 217mph (5mph higher than the 360).

Fourth, smoothness...Van himself said it is noticably smoother than the 360, particularly in certain "sweet spots".

All this adds up to what appears to be a really neat engine combo for the RV-7/8, and they pulled it. Now, I know being a distributor for Lycoming, and the fact that they designed the airplanes around the Lycoming engines, makes for an easy pass on the Franklin.

I'm not posting this for argument sake, and I've read all the past postings about the 220 Franklin. I'm just interested to see if there is any significant amount of interest in it, and to gather thoughts and more info.

:)
 
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Arrows

Go ahead Chad. There are several of that will help pull the arrows from your chest.

Get the Lycoming/clone, build and fly the airplane!!! There is a reason they use Guinnea pigs in labs.

This definitely sounds more promising than any other ALT engine out there. However, whaddya do when you're in BF Egypt and the thing breaks down? All things to think about!!!
 
Yukon said:
Jees, Chad, I need a program just to keep up! Franklin now????
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Guess so...it's not anything new from me, I've long had an interest in this engine. A friend of mine at my local airport has one on his yet to be completed Zenith 640, and gave me a thorough tour of the engine last fall. Pretty neat!

Like I've told you before when you harped on my for lack of conviction...I HAVEN'T bought an engine yet...there's no reason for me to stick to anything at this point...

;)
 
Lycoming Baby...You Know You Want It!

Chad,
An O-360 with a 3 blade, composite prop (MT, Whirlwind, Catto) will be every bit as smooth as a Franklin. Stop torturing yourself! Choose Lycoming!
 
Good luck

Chad

You are not the only one. The Franklin has been around just as long as the Lycoming, having built their first aircraft engine in 1938. Talked to a few "old timers" who say it is their favorite. Heck even Maul preferred it until they couldn't get a reliable supply. But that is the main thing that turned me off. Old engines can be found, but a reliable future supply of parts is the question, on again off again production. Then there is the research, engineering, and time of a custom installation to deal with. And unfortunately it is only carbureted, unless things have changed, which in my preference is a limitation.

But, since you did your homework, I am sure you know all that. So, by all means go for it and the best of luck. I am sure you will find more kindred spirits out there who refuse to drink the Lycoming "kool aid". Alas, it is too late for me, due to cheapness and lazyness I have already been "assimilated". :)
 
RV8RIVETER said:
Chad

You are not the only one. The Franklin has been around just as long as the Lycoming, having built their first aircraft engine in 1938. Talked to a few "old timers" who say it is their favorite. Heck even Maul preferred it until they couldn't get a reliable supply. But that is the main thing that turned me off. Old engines can be found, but a reliable future supply of parts is the question, on again off again production. Then there is the research, engineering, and time of a custom installation to deal with. And unfortunately it is only carbureted, unless things have changed, which in my preference is a limitation.

But, since you did your homework, I am sure you know all that. So, by all means go for it and the best of luck. I am sure you will find more kindred spirits out there who refuse to drink the Lycoming "kool aid". Alas, it is too late for me, due to cheapness and lazyness I have already been "assimilated". :)
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"Resistance is Futile"
 
franklin

at $18000 usd for the 220 with options of fuel injection...electronic ignition...being returned to the market by a company that has built many thousands of engines.....worth consideration...hang in there chad....
 
Best alternative.

Chad:

You and I have discussed my opinion, but I think this the best alternative engine around. Have you looked at the LOM332? It can pump out 185HP if tweaked. Lots of them flying in Europe.

Keep working and good luck.
 
Yukon said:
Chad,
An O-360 with a 3 blade, composite prop (MT, Whirlwind, Catto) will be every bit as smooth as a Franklin. Stop torturing yourself! Choose Lycoming!
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Johnny Ragz...we all know that you are one of the ambassadors for Lycoming power. There is no need to keep repeating yourself. I have no problem with Lycoming/clones. I just don't know that I want one yet.

I have no doubt that an O-360/composite prop combo would be every bit as smooth. I've never kept it a secret that the smoothest airplane (Sube's included) that I've flown was a 7A with a Superior XP-360/MT prop combo. I know they can be smooth.

I don't feel as though this is torture so much as it is research for ME to find my engine.

RV7GUY said:
This definitely sounds more promising than any other ALT engine out there. However, whaddya do when you're in BF Egypt and the thing breaks down? All things to think about!!!
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I agree, but if service is so hard to come by, what do all Stinson and Swift guys do for service in the same situation? I ask because I don't know...

RV8RIVETER said:
<snip>Heck even Maul preferred it until they couldn't get a reliable supply. But that is the main thing that turned me off. Old engines can be found, but a reliable future supply of parts is the question, on again off again production. Then there is the research, engineering, and time of a custom installation to deal with. And unfortunately it is only carbureted, unless things have changed, which in my preference is a limitation.

But, since you did your homework, I am sure you know all that. So, by all means go for it and the best of luck. I am sure you will find more kindred spirits out there who refuse to drink the Lycoming "kool aid". Alas, it is too late for me, due to cheapness and lazyness I have already been "assimilated".
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Well, I am still doing my homework but...there is a good parts supply in Oklahoma from a company called C.G. Lucas Franklin Engines. They've been doing it for quite some time.

I may very well be "assimilated" as well, but until I buy/have money to buy an engine, I'll keep looking...

stanman said:
at $18000 usd for the 220 with options of fuel injection...electronic ignition...being returned to the market by a company that has built many thousands of engines.....worth consideration...hang in there chad....
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Yep! Maciej is always very enthusiastic in my emails with him. They are planning purchasing a flying RV later this year to develop FWF stuff for the 220, with hopes of having it flying next year. We'll be talking about this at Oshkosh as well. If anyone is interested to talk with them, they will be in booth 4096 (IIRC).
 
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I have an acquaintance who put a Franklin in his C170/C180, and he absolutely LOVES it! Takeoff, ROC, smoothness, cruise, everything so much better than his 145. He actually has to throttle back in cruise to avoid red-line on IAS! And his SFCs are much better, too! I've always thought that if I had a need for that size engine, I would definitely prefer the Franklin to the Con or Lyc, all other things being equal, especially support. I guess doing your homework, and especially talking to other Franklin users and getting their impressions and advice, is the course to follow. I don't care what piece of equipment you obtain - car, truck, engine, ignition, alternator, whatever - you're going to find both devotees and horror stories. Best of luck on your quest!
 
The one nice thing, is that I have a friend here at my airport that has the 220 hanging on his 640 Zenith. He'll be flying before me, so I'll be able to get some really good answers from him.

:cool:
 
My $.02. A couple of things I like about Franklins: the first thing is the lifters and tappet bodies are removable without having to disassemble the engine. The second is the cylinders are sleeved. That means at overhaul the cylinders just need to be re-sleeved which should be much cheaper to do than it would to buy new cylinders. This is the same reason why the banks on a Merlin engine last so long, they get re-sleeved at overhaul.

The thing I don't like is the log intake manifolds, which don't evenly distribute intake air to all of the cylinders.

If I didn't already have a 540 for my F1 I would strongly consider the Franklin 220 or a Continental IO-360. I have never heard a bad thing said about the Franklins. A good friend of mine has flown the Franklinstein, and has said it was very smooth and fast.

Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
Indy
 
I have been flying behind one for 20 years, smooth is correct, very smooth.

Parts are still out there, not as simple as finding Ly/Con stuff, but no real problem. And I am referring to NOS/rebuilt stuff. If the Poland folks get serious about producing and supporting this engine, things will only get better.

[img=http://aycu34.webshots.com/image/19193/2001925110243301112_rs.jpg]

By the way, my Stinson is still available.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=18970

GREAT tailwheel trainer.

Mike
 
Keep it up Chad

Chad I'm glad you're continuing to challenge the status quo, what does it hurt to look around when you're smashing rivets?

I must say the 220 HP 6 cylinder looks pretty compelling, especially since they're promoting a kit for the -8.

Very interesting indeed....

http://www.franklinengines.com/rv8.cfm

Dan
 
EXACTLY!

Exactly Dan! I don't know why a few people around here get so bent outta shape about why some of us (okay...me) continue to research and change our (my) minds on what INTERESTS me day to day. If today I want a Franklin, tomorrow I want a Mazda, and in the end I have an Innodyn, who cares!? That's the beauty of not having purchased anything yet...

I just like to try and keep topics of interest in the news...



A word of caution about the link you posted...as several others have said in the past, that company in Ft. Collins seems shady. I've been trying to get ahold of them for MONTHS, with no return call or email. They've NEVER answered the phone, and I've left probably 10 messages...the factory has nothing to do with those guys... :rolleyes:
 
Interesting .... I look forward to learning more



cjensen said:
Exactly Dan! I don't know why a few people around here get so bent outta shape about why some of us (okay...me) continue to research and change our (my) minds on what INTERESTS me day to day. If today I want a Franklin, tomorrow I want a Mazda, and in the end I have an Innodyn, who cares!? That's the beauty of not having purchased anything yet...

I just like to try and keep topics of interest in the news...



A word of caution about the link you posted...as several others have said in the past, that company in Ft. Collins seems shady. I've been trying to get ahold of them for MONTHS, with no return call or email. They've NEVER answered the phone, and I've left probably 10 messages...the factory has nothing to do with those guys... :rolleyes:
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OH yeah

I think this is a SWEET option to the lyclones. I was watching this option a few years back and I was bummed when it didn't work out.

One thing I haven't heard mentioned yet is the sound. There is no mistaking the unique sound of one of these babys!

I'm Very interested in this keep us informed!
 
Just an FYI, the Skytec light weight starter for the Franklin is no longer available. Don't know if this will influence your decision much though...
 
YTM

Chad is simply the most vocal of individuals involved in constructive dialog. Instead of bashing, participate. These posts often elict thinking and opinions that are outside of the traditional box.

Ignore the fossilized criticism and continue to push. You the Man!

BTW: You got to love the name "Franklinstein"! Sounds like an "original" movie on the SciFi channel. Maybe Stein Burch could use the name at SteinAir? Mabye a boat with a 220 named "Franklinfish"?

Sorry for the ramble, but I got a great bottle of Merlot.
 
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cjensen said:
I've been talking to Maciej in Poland for several months about putting a 220 Franklin on my 7, and they have agreed to meet with me at Oshkosh about doing firewall forward stuff for RV's. :)
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Hi Chad,

Did you talk with the Franklin guys at Oshkosh? If so, any news/updates?

Mike
 
I can't answer to the smoothness of a Franklin but will comment on the installation in an RV. After Van's got the second RV-8 prototype flying, they installed a 220 Franklin in the original RV-8. The stories I saw in the RVator said that it was acceptable but they would not pursue it for kit production.

My understanding is that the Franklin is significantly heavier than a 200hp Lyc and performance was no better than the Lyc. Since Van is insistant that the 200hp Lyc is the heaviest engine that should be installed, they dropped the Franlin idea.

This is just a historical perspective. As the A/C manufacturer, you are free to install whatever engine you want.

Karl
 
mandm1516 said:
Hi Chad,

Did you talk with the Franklin guys at Oshkosh? If so, any news/updates?

Mike
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Yep, I talked to them...sort of. Maciej had to translate for Roman (the owner of the TC). They are on the right track, however, it's slow going. Their plan is to purchase a flying RV-? early next year to begin testing and FWF development. Maciej and Roman are very nice people, and very willing to help in any way. They have a BIG interest in working with someone to help develop the engine for RV's. It won't be me at this point, because I don't think they will be ready by the time I am for an engine.

It seemed very laid back, and I'm not sure what kind of financial backing they have to keep it going...it was hard to keep a conversation going with the translation, so I kept the questions to a minimum. They answer all emails, but are usually two or three days between responses.
 
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