T

todehnal

Well Known Member
rvbuilder2002 said:
I thought I would add some personal experience in case it might help some RV-12 pilots.
I know it is not part of the POH, and it is a bit counter intuitive, but I have found that raising the nose wheel as soon as possible provides better rudder control during crosswind take offs.

As with all airplanes with clockwise rotating propellers, a left crosswind is the biggest challenge (torque already turns the airplane that way, weather vaning into the cross wind makes it worse.) 100 HP is a lot of power for an airplane that weighs 750 lbs or less empty. The torque turn to the left is a factor with left cross winds. Because no power is applied during landing, there is ample rudder authority (even in a left cross wind) but you need to use care applying power while aborting a landing or doing a touch & go.

For every takeoff I hold the stick full back, and add full power. Reduce stick deflection as soon as nose starts to come up, so that nose wheel stays 4-6 inches off the runway. Let the airplane fly off when it is ready.
(A demonstration of what I consider good take-off and landing technique for any tri-gear RV can be seen in the first 1:30 of THIS VIDEO)

I have found that if I use this technique in a strong crosswind, the moment the nose wheel leaves the ground, the amount of rudder input required is reduced by about a third. In a 15kt left cross wind, it makes the difference between full right rudder and dragging the right brake (and extending the takeoff run because of the dragging brake), or using 2/3 to 3/4 of the available rudder input and no brake.

As already mentioned... the airplane is very capable, but the pilot needs to be equally as capable. New RV-12 pilots need to learn the airplane, and work up to these type of operating extremes as their skills develop.
Click to expand...

I found this old post by Scott from back in 2011. Back then, and still deep in the building process, reading the quoted post was interesting, but I didn't really absorb it all. Now, three years later, and with a little over 40 enjoyable hours in my RV-12, I'm working to sharpen my crosswind skills. A review of this post from Scott, watching the video again, and then getting a little stick time, has had some very positive results on my skill set. I'm sure that it will do the same for you. For those who haven't seen the video, do yourself a favor and view it. Then, go out and fly! Thanks Scott!!

Tom
 
Sorry to disagree, but in a stiff gusty crosswind, in a nose dragger, I wouldn't hold the stick back from the beginning, and then continue to hold the nose off. You want the wheels planted firmly on the ground until you have flying speed, otherwise good ole Mother Nature will do her best to skid you off to the ditch. Granted, the 12 has plenty of extra power to get flying speed quickly, but in a less powerful machine you will be setting yourself up for trouble. Ask any taildragger jock what happens when they don't keep that wing down.
 
artrose said:
Sorry to disagree, but in a stiff gusty crosswind, in a nose dragger, I wouldn't hold the stick back from the beginning, and then continue to hold the nose off. You want the wheels planted firmly on the ground until you have flying speed, otherwise good ole Mother Nature will do her best to skid you off to the ditch. Granted, the 12 has plenty of extra power to get flying speed quickly, but in a less powerful machine you will be setting yourself up for trouble. Ask any taildragger jock what happens when they don't keep that wing down.
Click to expand...


My experience has been a little different. Just sold my PA-11, and I always used the ailerons to hold the windward wing down, not the third wheel. Also, crosswinds always called for wheel landing, keeping the tail wheel off the ground as long as possible. Anyway, I find the weathercock tendency to be far less with the nose wheel off the ground in the 12. But, do what works best for you.............Tom
 
Nice video. Really nice take offs and landings. On a calm day or wind down the runway, perfect.

Here's my CFI side coming out with the "but"....

Crosswind landings, especially strong/gusty x-winds are not the place for pretty, gentle landings. If it works out that way, great, but your job is to get it down, on and stopped. Or up and away with speed to spare.

For takeoff, I would never advocate a stick back, soft field style takeoff. Reason being that if it's gusty, you could wind up becoming airborne before you achieved safe flying speed. That gust then drops off, now you're in a world of hurt. Proper technique is to actually add a few knots to rotation speed so that you're safely above any gust that may induce variations in your airspeed. i.e. rotation is 50 knots, you rotate at 50 in the midst of a 10 knot gust. At 10-20' off the ground you lose that 10 knot gust and are now at 40 knots. Add in another variable of a soft field style take off, now you've just become airborne unexpectedly, dangerously slow, with a cross controlled configuration. See where this can wind up?

Proper x-wind takeoff is aileron into the wind, trimmed for take off (or even a touch nose down). Use rudder to counter act the yaw, as you accelerate take out the aileron, rudder to maintain centerline. Rotate at the appropriate airspeed and then crab into the wind when airborne to maintain centerline. If you don't have enough rudder to track straight down the runway on the takeoff roll, you shouldn't be flying as you've found the take off crosswind limit. In a plane like the 12 where this all happens fast (especially when light) it could all be one fluid motion as you accelerate quickly. Point being, don't allow yourself the chance of being airborne, out of airspeed, altitude, and crossed up. Speed is your best friend.

For landing crab and kick or fwd slip... dealers choice here. The airplane has already proven it can fly, and going around is always an option. Personally I crab to about 50' then fwd slip so as to touch down wing low/top rudder on the upwind wheel, then fly that until the down wind wheel settles. As soon as that happens get all three down and get on the brakes to get stopped. Technique only, but your percentage threat here is the crosswind/gusts so the faster you get stopped the less opportunity you're giving it to ruin your day.

My $.02, YMMV.
 
With a little over 110 hrs in the -12 so far and multiple Xwind TO's and landings (especially this spring here in Ohio) I would have to agree with Scott's detailed technique. The -12 is light on the nose, in Xwind situations on takeoff, leaving the nose wheel on the ground is less predictable than bringing it up ASAP. not to mention wheel shimmy trying to hold it down. Leaving it on the runway longer requires riding the brake to compensate the weathervane effect. Bringing it up gives instantaneous rudder authority even at low speed (25-30kts). Input your aileron correction and the -12 will fly off on its own. I do not hold "full stick back" during the entire ground roll, I balance on the main gear until liftoff. This does not require full stick back. Full stick back is used to bring the nose off, then ease off the stick to maintain the balance.

Landings in Xwind are similar to anything else, wing into the wind, correct track with the rudder and touchdown upwind wheel first and then slow down safely. No need to jab the brakes. With the -12 being light it does require inputs while on the rollout, which means you fly it to the hangar in gusty conditions. You should do that in any airplane.

Overall, the -12 is a capable airplane in Xwind situations but does take some practice to understand and develop your own personal operating envelope.
 
artrose said:
Ask any taildragger jock what happens when they don't keep that wing down.
Click to expand...

Keeping the wing down is a matter unrelated to the ideas presented by the OP.

todehnal said:
Also, crosswinds always called for wheel landing, keeping the tail wheel off the ground as long as possible.
Click to expand...

Sorry - this is thread drift, but xwinds do not call for wheel landings. That is pilot preference. And you're asking for trouble in many airplanes if you attempt to keep the tail up as long as possible in windy conditions.
 
I must agree with the original premise. I feel a little more in control, using less rudder, with the nose off the ground. It may be the amount of drag in the nose wheel castering bushings, or whatever. It just seems like there is less need for hard rudder, and steering is more responsive. This seems to go against popular theory; more angle, more P factor, harder right rudder.

Other things I find helpful, at least to me (YMMV.) With anything but standard TOs, (Xwind, gusts, etc.) I don't use any flap in the 12. With Xwind, I still pull the plane off, not really letting it fly off on its own, even with the nose off the ground during TO. Pretty much the same with gusts--fly when it feels right, then keep close to the ground to build speed.

Different planes would react differently. I used to have problems in Xwinds on the ground with the Tomahawk. A 182 always seemed to be more demanding on the rudder than it should have been. I never did really master the C-180. The 12 is a piece of cake, once you figure out what works for you. Practice, practice, practice. I only have about 35 hours RV-12 time, but it isn't all that different (at least to me) than my 9A.

Bob
 
Clarification to my original (quoted) post....

First off, I am not a CFI, but I have been flying these airplanes for a long time, and have even taught some people things about flying them:eek:. The information is provided to help RV pilots, but it is their responsibility to determine what is the best procedures for them...

A tricycle gear RV with a free castoring nose wheel is in some ways very different from a Cessnacherokee with a steerable nose wheel.

On a tri gear RV with all 3 wheels on the ground, if some outside force (strong crosswind) causes the airplane to yaw, the yaw motion causes the nose wheel to castor and induce a turn towards the direction the nose is already swinging/yawing.
Instead of the nose wheel helping to keep the airplane straight (like it does on a cessna or piper... or anything else with a steerable nose wheel), it actually makes it turn more.
Getting the nose wheel off the ground as early in the takeoff roll as possible actually reduces the turning tendency caused by the crosswind, by removing the influence of the nose wheel.
The one thing that I admit is not good advice in the quoted original post, if you are making a take-off in gusty conditions, is raising the nose wheel to 4-6 inches off the runway. I agree with sig600 that you do not want to have a gust induced lift-off, only to find yourself in a stall when the gust subsides.
I still say that the best technique is to get the nose wheel off as early as you can, but with it just barely clear of the runway (takes some practice, but it's not difficult). This will remove the turning tenancy of the nose wheel, but still keep the AOA as low as possible so that the airplane flys off at a speed well above stall speed.
As already mentioned, this is particularly helpful in a left crosswind. By not having to drag a brake to keep the airplane straight, the airplane accelerates much more quickly so you spend less time at a speed too slow to fly, but fast enough that a strong gust might induce flight.
All other standard crosswind techniques (aileron into wind, etc) apply.

My #1 question for anyone advocating a different technique would be
"Do you have pilot in command time flying an A model RV in strong cross winds"? If not, I am confident that when you get the chance, you will find that what ever amount of experience you have with trigear airplanes with steerable nose wheels does not directly apply.
 
Good clarification Scott,

Sig just being picky (flamesuit on) we do not rotate our airplanes. ;)

One more thing I see is too much elevator and holding of nose up causing the longer takeoff roll due to drag. In all airplanes. Get the thing accelerating, gently increase the wing angle and she will fly off in the right attitude, at the right speed. As mentioned above forcing the issue can be bad.
 
RV10inOz said:
Good clarification Scott,

Sig just being picky (flamesuit on) we do not rotate our airplanes. ;)

One more thing I see is too much elevator and holding of nose up causing the longer takeoff roll due to drag. In all airplanes. Get the thing accelerating, gently increase the wing angle and she will fly off in the right attitude, at the right speed. As mentioned above forcing the issue can be bad.
Click to expand...

You absolutely do. You know when/where/speed the airplane should lift off right? The point at which you expect the airplane to lift off? The speed prior to which you do nothing, and after you're wondering why you're not flying yet (if heavy?).

It may not be a published Vr speed, but if you don't have a number in your head at which you feed in back stick and expect things to happen... A lift off speed, or a speed correlated with takeoff distance, you're not doing your due diligence. If you're just along for the ride, how are you going to know the day things aren't right?
 
Hang on hang on.......

I never said anything about not having a number whereby the aircraft should be positioned for pitch such that the plane flies off the deck. You are confusing things.

I said we do not ROTATE our aircraft as you do in a jet transport. There are very well defined reasons for this. Perhaps do some google searching.

I was being picky, and in a gentle humorous way hoping you would go find out why some crazy Aussie would say such a thing.

Perhaps we should take this discussion offline. Or start another thread.

Here is a very good explanation from my colleague John Deakin.

Does any POH for any GA aircraft specify "Rotation?" It would be a terrible, terrible misuse of the word.

You see, a jet MUST be accelerated in a roughly level attitude to reduce drag, then firmly and deliberately "rotated" to a MINIMUM of about 10 degrees to begin flying, and 15 to 30 degrees to fly properly (mostly because of the high-lift devices). It takes TIME to do that, so the engineers had to come up with a speed, and a term for it, so that the airplane would be AT "V2" (engine out) or V2+10 (all engines). It's often 10 or 15 knots below the V2 speed, and usually the maneuver is performed at approximately 1 degree of "Rotation" (about the lateral axis) per second.

It is just plain silly to use the term in GA, roughly akin to "Blast Off." You might jokingly say "Blast Off," but using the term in a technical discussion would make everyone else in the discussion wince.

For GA aircraft, the nose is allowed to come up a little early on, but not off. The aircraft is properly placed in the flying attitude, which is only a few degrees nose-up, and allowed to fly at any speed it wants. No "Rotation" involved. A tail-wheel aircraft will have the tail come up to the same "flying attitude." The idea is to break ground at a good, comfortable flying speed.

When someone misuses the term, the general feeling of the more experience pilot is "Oh, geez, we've got another Buck Rogers wanna-be, here."

"Rotation" is a very useful speed, and is a very useful shorthand - in jet transports. It is an affectation, otherwise.

Best...
John Deakin
Advanced Pilot Seminars
Click to expand...

OK enough thread drift from me. :eek:
 
true

Unless you built a rv-727 you are not rotating the aircraft to get it off the ground.
 
I am very open to advice! So, give me some. My grass strip is 1260 feet long. It is level about a third of the way in the normal takeoff direction, then downhill, then level again, then a dropoff. It is very wide, over 90 feet before you get near tall trees. The trees on both sides shield the takeoff roll from crosswinds.

My normal practice is to point the plane a bit to the right. Half flaps, full back stick, full right rudder and try to stay off the brake. When the nose lifts I reduce the amount of aft stick and the rudder is effective.

As soon as the plane gets really light, and starting to "skitter" this is where the downhill portion kind of drops out from under! That I am not fond of! I carefully hold it low in ground effect to build some speed. This takes a lot of forward stick force. Usually I'm over 70 kts and accelerating at the runway end (not sure, it happens fast!), plenty of margin for a climb.

(One time I did not use the half flaps. I will NOT do that again!)

Usually it is just me and full fuel, about 1060 pounds. If two people aboard, I reduce the fuel load, maybe 1180 pounds total max. I watch the DA. I won't take off at gross wt (well, on a cold day with a nice headwind maybe), I would take off lighter and meet the passenger and baggage at the closest airport.

Landing has not been an issue at all. Love the beeping AOA.

My takeoff trim position is set to the standard position. I recently determined that about an eighth of an inch lower on the Dynon trim indicator yields a trimmed 65kt climb. I've been meaning to try that position on a regular runway takeoff but haven't yet, wondering if that would be a good setting for the short strip. Might eliminate some of that forward stick force but still yield a good climb attitude. If you want to see one of my early takeoffs and landings video and the strip, see here (public link): https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=631047670248468&l=3727324411869608154

Advice about takeoffs is appreciated!

Bill H N412BR "Sweetie"
 
More drift here... but I despise incomplete information.

The King Air has a rotation speed, it is GA. So do the Cessna 400 series twins, and 300 series. They are GA. Quite a few models of 172s/182s have rotation speeds...they surely must meet the GA criteria.

The reason many airplanes don't require Vr speeds are simple, they are MGW is low enough to make variations in flight weight insignificant (relatively), and it is not required speed for certification in aircraft with MGW <12.5k.

You need not call out 'rotate', I don't. Nor do I make my students. But when they start to wheelbarrow down the strip on the nosewheel I tend to ask them if they planned on flying today...

So...the next time you assume the takeoff attitude by applying back pressure (or in some peoples case letting the angle of incidence do the work while they runway hop) realize you are "rotating".

I always recommend people use the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, it is available for free and though I have not referred to it, a buffalo nickel says 'rotation' is explained. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/

Sorry for the digression...

As for the X-wind question...
If you are stabilized, tracking the runway and maintaining directional control, you are winning! For practice I recommend an excercise called 'kissing the runway' on a calm day. Find a nice long runway and practice controlling your airplane as close (inches) to the runway and at as slow a speed as possible. This will develop the motor skills that will help when you move up to gusty xwinds.

Safe flight.
Paul
 
I find this thread most interesting not because of the thread drift, but because I discovered this technique by accident on my own. I fully agree with Scott for all the reasons he mentions. With the breakout force on the nose wheel set properly, if the wind kicks you over to one direction, it almost always takes some brake application to bring it back. I learned through trying that it was better to just lift the nose wheel off the pavement slightly and hold it there until the airplane flies off the runway. This usually results in the most smooth takeoff. Just my experience, YMMV.
 
Paul, show me the Vr speeds in the POH.

The RV727 gag above is funny but true. A Jet transport is needing of a Vr otherwise it rolls off the end of the runway at great speed.

A C172 is not.

The FAA describe it....Ohhh please....next it will be CASA said. :)
 
Stick back provides a useful indication

I like to use at least a little back stick early in the takeoff roll simply because it gives me a good feel for how much air is flowing across the tail. Once I feel that the horz. stab is becoming effective, I know that I can begin the transition from brake steering to rudder steering, the thought process being that if the horizontal is working, the vertical probably is too.
 
Should probably explain 'kiss the runway' a tad better. Set your airplane up to land on a nice long runway, and as you are about to set down (the closer to the runway the better) use power to arrest descent. Adjust pitch, and power to remain flying as close to a landing attitude (and the pavement) as possible. This will require constant control inputs using peripheral vision (rudder for centerline, aileron for drift, pitch and power for landing attitude). Small 'kisses' on the mains should be answered with a quick small bump of power (decrease in pitch of course) and go right back into the exercise. Recover with full throttle and remain in ground effect until safe flying speed is attained. Aside from being an absolute blast, it builds coordination while low, slow and work saturated. Grab a CFI and try it (thats the disclaimer). At the very least start on a calm day.


David,

The internet isn't good enough in this country to start downloading POHs. But if I recall the cessnas say something like "Use elevator to raise nose wheel at x knots. Followed by climb out at y knots (usually Vy). Of course the raising the nose wheel is 'rotating' about the lateral axis into a takeoff attitude.

The FAA Flying handbook explains rotation in 5-3. Though everyone has their own cup of tea?the FAA makes a good book to start, and the best part is the cost (free). http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...irplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-3of7.pdf

Semantics aside?it would be?unusually odd?to have a student call out 'rotate'. But if its safe, I'd roll with it.

Cheers
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
First off, I am not a CFI, but I have been flying these airplanes for a long time, and have even taught some people things about flying them:eek:. The information is provided to help RV pilots, but it is their responsibility to determine what is the best procedures for them...

A tricycle gear RV with a free castoring nose wheel is in some ways very different from a Cessnacherokee with a steerable nose wheel.

On a tri gear RV with all 3 wheels on the ground, if some outside force (strong crosswind) causes the airplane to yaw, the yaw motion causes the nose wheel to castor and induce a turn towards the direction the nose is already swinging/yawing.
Instead of the nose wheel helping to keep the airplane straight (like it does on a cessna or piper... or anything else with a steerable nose wheel), it actually makes it turn more.
Getting the nose wheel off the ground as early in the takeoff roll as possible actually reduces the turning tendency caused by the crosswind, by removing the influence of the nose wheel.
The one thing that I admit is not good advice in the quoted original post, if you are making a take-off in gusty conditions, is raising the nose wheel to 4-6 inches off the runway. I agree with sig600 that you do not want to have a gust induced lift-off, only to find yourself in a stall when the gust subsides.
I still say that the best technique is to get the nose wheel off as early as you can, but with it just barely clear of the runway (takes some practice, but it's not difficult). This will remove the turning tenancy of the nose wheel, but still keep the AOA as low as possible so that the airplane flys off at a speed well above stall speed.
As already mentioned, this is particularly helpful in a left crosswind. By not having to drag a brake to keep the airplane straight, the airplane accelerates much more quickly so you spend less time at a speed too slow to fly, but fast enough that a strong gust might induce flight.
All other standard crosswind techniques (aileron into wind, etc) apply.

My #1 question for anyone advocating a different technique would be
"Do you have pilot in command time flying an A model RV in strong cross winds"? If not, I am confident that when you get the chance, you will find that what ever amount of experience you have with trigear airplanes with steerable nose wheels does not directly apply.
Click to expand...

With more than 70 hours in my 12 and time in a 9A I can say that he knows what he is talking about. If you don't have time in these it would be best for on lookers that are trying to learn what is best to do that you keep quiet.

I have 20 + knot crosswind takeoffs and landings in mine. Holding the nose a few inches off during takeoff with no flaps works the best. If you put it down fast and get really hard on the brakes during a really gusty crosswind landing on a narrow runway your asking to end up in the weeds. I only use the brake when full ruder won't steer it. These planes do not ground handle like Cesnas.

I at first had my nosewheel too tight and the only way to steer while taxiing was with the brakes.
 
ffoster said:
With more than 70 hours in my 12 and time in a 9A I can say that he knows what he is talking about. If you don't have time in these it would be best for on lookers that are trying to learn what is best to do that you keep quiet.

I have 20 + knot crosswind takeoffs and landings in mine. Holding the nose a few inches off during takeoff with no flaps works the best. If you put it down fast and get really hard on the brakes during a really gusty crosswind landing on a narrow runway your asking to end up in the weeds. I only use the brake when full ruder won't steer it. These planes do not ground handle like Cesnas.

I at first had my nosewheel too tight and the only way to steer while taxiing was with the brakes.
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Very well said Forrest.
 
I have over 600 hours on my RV-12 - -

I can absolutely say that holding the nose off is the best policy for this plane in crosswinds. I have a theory that may not be based in fact, but I believe lowering the tail in a crosswind (raising the nose ) takes 'clean air' off the tail some, which helps in control. The wings create a different airflow around them, and the tail get into that air some which breaks up the crosswind affect some. I still use 1 position of flaps, and the plane takes off when ready. Once the wheels are off, I let it crab into the wind, and stop fighting the controls. I believe the same affect happens during landing, so the same benefits are there. On landing, I keep the nose higher. Just seems to help the tail not get into the crosswind as much.
 
Icarus said:
Should probably explain 'kiss the runway' a tad better. Set your airplane up to land on a nice long runway, and as you are about to set down (the closer to the runway the better) use power to arrest descent. Adjust pitch, and power to remain flying as close to a landing attitude (and the pavement) as possible. This will require constant control inputs using peripheral vision (rudder for centerline, aileron for drift, pitch and power for landing attitude). Small 'kisses' on the mains should be answered with a quick small bump of power (decrease in pitch of course) and go right back into the exercise. Recover with full throttle and remain in ground effect until safe flying speed is attained. Aside from being an absolute blast, it builds coordination while low, slow and work saturated. Grab a CFI and try it (thats the disclaimer). At the very least start on a calm day.


David,

The internet isn't good enough in this country to start downloading POHs. But if I recall the cessnas say something like "Use elevator to raise nose wheel at x knots. Followed by climb out at y knots (usually Vy). Of course the raising the nose wheel is 'rotating' about the lateral axis into a takeoff attitude.

The FAA Flying handbook explains rotation in 5-3. Though everyone has their own cup of tea?the FAA makes a good book to start, and the best part is the cost (free). http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...irplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-3of7.pdf

Semantics aside?it would be?unusually odd?to have a student call out 'rotate'. But if its safe, I'd roll with it.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Paul M

The jet will never fly off unless you ROTATE it......your average GA plane will. There is a significant design difference and its the old folk like Deakin who laugh at the newbies.....go ask one why. Plenty around still for now.
 
ffoster said:
With more than 70 hours in my 12 and time in a 9A I can say that he knows what he is talking about. If you don't have time in these it would be best for on lookers that are trying to learn what is best to do that you keep quiet.

I have 20 + knot crosswind takeoffs and landings in mine. Holding the nose a few inches off during takeoff with no flaps works the best. If you put it down fast and get really hard on the brakes during a really gusty crosswind landing on a narrow runway your asking to end up in the weeds. I only use the brake when full ruder won't steer it. These planes do not ground handle like Cesnas.

I at first had my nosewheel too tight and the only way to steer while taxiing was with the brakes.
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Couple thousand hours here in over 100 makes/models, if we want to play that card.

If you don't have the rudder/aileron to track straight you've exceeded the limitation, pure and simple. You should not be giving the airplane opportunity to become airborne in gusty x-winds before flying speed is achieved.

I can cite several accidents using poor x-wind technique (and I would categorize this somewhere between ill-advised to poor).

I personally watched a Cherokee, with four people execute this very technique from a narrow runway for the same reason. It was beyond the x-wind limit and rudder wouldn't keep the nose tracking straight. Full power, nose wheel up, gust of wind and they were airborne crabbing (more like weather veining) into the wind, lost the gust, left wing tip hit, airplane tumbled and came to rest inverted and burned. All four died.

The 12 lands and takes off slow, and a well handling/designed airplane can go a long way for covering up poor technique.

People are constantly yapping on here about how we need to police our own, reduce accidents, etc etc. But when you try and tell someone that their "technique" goes against the fundamentals of basic aero, it becomes "well I have more hours in ____ than you." If that's the case, do what you want.... when solo.
 
no kidding

RV10inOz said:
Paul M

The jet will never fly off unless you ROTATE it......your average GA plane will. There is a significant design difference and its the old folk like Deakin who laugh at the newbies.....go ask one why. Plenty around still for now.
Click to expand...

Why are you addressing this to me? I know that to be true.
I worked for the airlines for thirty years, I know the difference between a c-150 and a DC-10
 
It wont help anyone here if we start playing the "I have more hours than you game". I cant speak for him, but the feel that I got was he was just substantiating that he does have personal experience flying an RV-12 (and at least one other tri-gear RV).
You didn't mention whether the 100+ make/models included any trigear RV time?

To avoid pushing this into an argument of who is the most right, I will end with a comment to point out why generalizing a proper technique to apply to all aircraft is not valid.

I have pointed out that a castoring nose wheel on an RV can actually induce more turn when the airplane yaws from a crosswind. You contend that the nose wheel should never be lifted (until rotation) in a cross wind, and if you have to, the wind is beyond the cross wind capability of the airplane.
The 3 point attitude AOA of an RV-6A is about the same as the AOA would be of an RV-7A, once the nose wheel is slightly lifted during a take-off roll. So at a similar weight and engine power, the RV-7A running with the nose wheel off, would leave the ground at about the same speed as the RV-6A with the nose wheel still firmly planted.

My point...
They would both be just as vulnerable in gusty conditions.
Has the RV-6A with it's higher ground angle of attack shown to be more accident prone for cross wind loss of control accidents? No.

I understand your interest in promoting safety, but I think it is unfare to presume that anyone promoting a different technique than you, is not doing so.
For me it is just the opposite. I do all I can to get people to build, maintain and fly their RV safely and I believe I am doing so in this instance also.
Raising the nose early gives you much better control of yaw... in any conditions.
It is really no different than flying a tail dragger after its tail wheel has lifted (actually easier because the main wheels are aft of the CG).
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
It wont help anyone here if we start playing the "I have more hours than you game". I cant speak for him, but the feel that I got was he was just substantiating that he does have personal experience flying an RV-12 (and at least one other tri-gear RV).
You didn't mention whether the 100+ make/models included any trigear RV time?

Completely agree and yes.

To avoid pushing this into an argument of who is the most right, I will end with a comment to point out why generalizing a proper technique to apply to all aircraft is not valid.

Also agree, but whether its a 6A, 12, Tiger, etc variations in technique still carry the same inherent risks. This is mitigated in the 12 by the fact that thing thing almost jumps off the runway. For this same reason, it's even more susceptible to becoming airborne at low speed before actual flying speed is attained.

I have pointed out that a castoring nose wheel on an RV can actually induce more turn when the airplane yaws from a crosswind. You contend that the nose wheel should never be lifted (until rotation) in a cross wind, and if you have to, the wind is beyond the cross wind capability of the airplane.
The 3 point attitude AOA of an RV-6A is about the same as the AOA would be of an RV-7A, once the nose wheel is slightly lifted during a take-off roll. So at a similar weight and engine power, the RV-7A running with the nose wheel off, would leave the ground at about the same speed as the RV-6A with the nose wheel still firmly planted.

A castering nosewheel induces more variables as it can't be used as effectively to keep the airplane tracking straight. Thus a crosswind is that much more unforgiving.

My point...
They would both be just as vulnerable in gusty conditions.
Has the RV-6A with it's higher ground angle of attack shown to be more accident prone for cross wind loss of control accidents? No.

I understand your interest in promoting safety, but I think it is unfare to presume that anyone promoting a different technique than you, is not doing so.
For me it is just the opposite. I do all I can to get people to build, maintain and fly their RV safely and I believe I am doing so in this instance also.
Raising the nose early gives you much better control of yaw... in any conditions.
It is really no different than flying a tail dragger after its tail wheel has lifted (actually easier because the main wheels are aft of the CG).

I'm not promoting any technique (I tend to avoid that) the discussion is the inherent risk in said technique being discussed. What I've submitted is universally taught (PTS Standard) x-wind takeoff method regardless of a/c type, and the inherent risk with deviating from that as practiced here.
Click to expand...


1. Utilizes procedures before taxiing onto the runway or
takeoff area to ensure runway incursion avoidance. Verify
ATC clearance/no aircraft on final at non
-
towe
red airports
before entering the runway, and ensure that the aircraft is
on the correct takeoff runway.
2.
Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to a
normal and crosswind takeoff, climb operations, and
rejected takeoff procedures.
3.
Ascertains
wind direction with or without visible wind
direction indicators.
4.
Calculates/determines if crosswind component is above his
or her ability or that of the aircraft?s capability.
5.
Positions the flight controls for the existing wind conditions.
6.
Clears the are
a; taxies into the takeoff position and aligns
the airplane on the runway center/takeoff path.
7.
Retracts the water rudders, as appropriate (ASES), and
advances the throttle smoothly to takeoff power.
8.
Establishes and maintains the most efficient planing/lift
-
off
attitude and corrects for porpoising and skipping (ASES).
9.
Rotates and lifts off at the recommended airspeed and
accelerates to V
Y
.
10.
Establishes a pitch attitude that will maintain V
Y
+10/
-
5
knots.
11.
Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate, and flaps af
ter a
positive rate of climb is established.
12.
Maintains takeoff power and V
Y
+10/
-
5 knots to a safe
maneuvering altitude.
13.
Maintains directional control and proper wind
-
drift correction
throughout the takeoff and climb.
14.
Complies with responsible environmenta
l practices,
including noise abatement procedures.
15.
Completes the appropriate checklist
Click to expand...

Ten characters. I'm out....
 
Uh... Remember my question about short field takeoff advice? Rather than DC10 or L1011 characteristics?
 
Dave12 said:
Tom, you started this!:D
Click to expand...

Sorry!! And all I said was....................

Really, I just wanted to let Scott know that his technique really helped me a lot, and that I greatly appreciated his suggestions, and his video. Dave, you know how it is, everybody is an expert. I'm just a novice, but I sure do love my RV-12!!!
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
It wont help anyone here if we start playing the "I have more hours than you game". I cant speak for him, but the feel that I got was he was just substantiating that he does have personal experience flying an RV-12 (and at least one other tri-gear RV).
You didn't mention whether the 100+ make/models included any trigear RV time?

To avoid pushing this into an argument of who is the most right, I will end with a comment to point out why generalizing a proper technique to apply to all aircraft is not valid.

I have pointed out that a castoring nose wheel on an RV can actually induce more turn when the airplane yaws from a crosswind. You contend that the nose wheel should never be lifted (until rotation) in a cross wind, and if you have to, the wind is beyond the cross wind capability of the airplane.
The 3 point attitude AOA of an RV-6A is about the same as the AOA would be of an RV-7A, once the nose wheel is slightly lifted during a take-off roll. So at a similar weight and engine power, the RV-7A running with the nose wheel off, would leave the ground at about the same speed as the RV-6A with the nose wheel still firmly planted.

My point...
They would both be just as vulnerable in gusty conditions.
Has the RV-6A with it's higher ground angle of attack shown to be more accident prone for cross wind loss of control accidents? No.

I understand your interest in promoting safety, but I think it is unfare to presume that anyone promoting a different technique than you, is not doing so.
For me it is just the opposite. I do all I can to get people to build, maintain and fly their RV safely and I believe I am doing so in this instance also.
Raising the nose early gives you much better control of yaw... in any conditions.
It is really no different than flying a tail dragger after its tail wheel has lifted (actually easier because the main wheels are aft of the CG).
Click to expand...

Scott,

I have trillions :D of hours but as a newbie with the -12, I appreciate your flying tips. I plan to start incorporating them on my next flight. Gads, it makes you wonder how the B-25 and B-29 pilots ever got their castoring nose wheeled aircraft off the ground.

If you don't mind, would you please comment on how Van's Aircraft derives their published crosswind limitations.

Regards,
 
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I felt like I was politely thumped for expressing my opinion earlier in this thread. I can accept the criticism, and although I have never had the opportunity to fly a 12, nothing exchanged here has changed my thoughts about the advisability of raising the nose of a nose dragger on take-off in "gusty" "strong" crosswinds. In normal every day conditions, light and variable bluebird days, there's nothing wrong with the technique touted here, and I'd agree it's a good practice, but that's not what I'm addressing. In addition, I do not wish to get into the "I've got more hours than you do" ****, but my opinion is based on hundreds of hours in my castoring nose 6A, as well as many hundreds of hours in a very wide variety of other single engine aircraft, from the smallest and lightest underpowered Ultralights, to high wings, low wings, tail draggers, and with power plants ranging from 40 hp thru 300hp. I think I've been educated, and have developed my own set of personal common sense rules. The practice of raising the nose dragger nose on take-off in strong gusty crosswinds, even a little bit, changes the wing angle of attack and improves the odds that a gust can take you airborne before you're ready, especially with a light airframe, and is NOT a good practice, despite the advice given here, and for whatever good intentioned reasons, or even if you're lifting the nose because it shimmys (fix it). In those strong gusty crosswinds, if you can't maintain centerline with the nose down, then perhaps you should consider another runway, or park it until conditions improve. Nothing like the sinking feeling when you come home to land, you've got the rudder planted on the floor, and you're still drifting towards that row of hangars. I'm very thankful I've been able to survive some of the unplanned airshow antics I've performed throughout the years by way of ignorance, but each and every one was a learning experience. You're mighty skilled, or lucky, in gusty conditions, if you can maintain that nose 3 or 4 inches off the ground as suggested. It's not about keeping the castoring nose on the ground for extra grip, it's about keeping the land vehicle on land before it's ready to transition to a flying vehicle. For tail draggers, in gusty conditions, when you lift the tail, the wing angle of attack lowers, and your next chore is to keep the mains firmly in contact with the ground. Understanding this helps you understand why a 3 point touchdown in gusty conditions in a tail dragger is not always the best decision. Go ahead, lift that nose draggers nose, make a habit of it, and there'll come a time where your 12's most excellent power to weight ratio won't save the day, you'll get bit, and my insurance rates will go up again.
 
When I did my first few flights my takeoff technique was not the best. I wasn't use to the light stick forces and tried to treat it like my Cherokee. I had a tendency to over-rotate, and started holding the nose wheel down. It seemed to cause wheel-barrowing and adversely affected directional control on the takeoff run. Now I hold slight backpressure and relax it if the nose comes up before I want it to. The takeoff roll seems more stable with weight off the nose wheel.
 
artrose said:
I felt like I was politely thumped for expressing my opinion earlier in this thread. I can accept the criticism, and although I have never had the opportunity to fly a 12, nothing exchanged here has changed my thoughts about the advisability of raising the nose of a nose dragger on take-off in "gusty" "strong" crosswinds. In normal every day conditions, light and variable bluebird days, there's nothing wrong with the technique touted here, and I'd agree it's a good practice, but that's not what I'm addressing. In addition, I do not wish to get into the "I've got more hours than you do" ****, but my opinion is based on hundreds of hours in my castoring nose 6A, as well as many hundreds of hours in a very wide variety of other single engine aircraft, from the smallest and lightest underpowered Ultralights, to high wings, low wings, tail draggers, and with power plants ranging from 40 hp thru 300hp. I think I've been educated, and have developed my own set of personal common sense rules. The practice of raising the nose dragger nose on take-off in strong gusty crosswinds, even a little bit, changes the wing angle of attack and improves the odds that a gust can take you airborne before you're ready, especially with a light airframe, and is NOT a good practice, despite the advice given here, and for whatever good intentioned reasons, or even if you're lifting the nose because it shimmys (fix it). In those strong gusty crosswinds, if you can't maintain centerline with the nose down, then perhaps you should consider another runway, or park it until conditions improve. Nothing like the sinking feeling when you come home to land, you've got the rudder planted on the floor, and you're still drifting towards that row of hangars. I'm very thankful I've been able to survive some of the unplanned airshow antics I've performed throughout the years by way of ignorance, but each and every one was a learning experience. You're mighty skilled, or lucky, in gusty conditions, if you can maintain that nose 3 or 4 inches off the ground as suggested. It's not about keeping the castoring nose on the ground for extra grip, it's about keeping the land vehicle on land before it's ready to transition to a flying vehicle. For tail draggers, in gusty conditions, when you lift the tail, the wing angle of attack lowers, and your next chore is to keep the mains firmly in contact with the ground. Understanding this helps you understand why a 3 point touchdown in gusty conditions in a tail dragger is not always the best decision. Go ahead, lift that nose draggers nose, make a habit of it, and there'll come a time where your 12's most excellent power to weight ratio won't save the day, you'll get bit, and my insurance rates will go up again.
Click to expand...


The key phrase is in this message is " I have not flown a -12".

The RV-12 is very light on the nose compared to the -6 or -9 or -8, etc... The vertical stab/rudder is large as well, this enhances the weather vane effect but allows for slow speed control authority. The flaperons allow for very good control authority while slow as well. This discussion is about what method is best for THIS aircraft. Not a 727, Piper Cherokee, C-172, or even another model of an RV. The -12 is uniqe. The method described by Scott, which I use on every takeoff works very well. Would I use that method in an average crosswind situation. Yes. A strong gusty crosswind that will be approaching the max Xwind component. No. Because I will not be flying in those conditions. The best lesson from this conservation should be "set your own personal limitations based on skill, not aircraft capability". Don't base your limitations on flying -12 compared to flying a Cessna 172,182 or what have you. Practice and build your own skill and comfort level (for any airplane) then make sound judgement calls when putting them to use.

http://youtu.be/GaENym4Cc7M


http://youtu.be/7LqToaH6CS8

First video is a takeoff, second is a landing. Used gopro mounted on the belly of our -12. Winds were light and variable.
 
Nose wheel castering

Thanks Scott, now I understand what happens some times with my 9 on takeoff in gusty crosswinds. With winds from the right (our typical cross winds) I incorrectly have been keeping the nose wheel down too long thinking it would help the plane track better. I'd add lots of rudder and the more I added the more it would want to go left until the nose is lifted then all was fine and easily controlled by the rudder.
 
scottmillhouse said:
Thanks Scott, now I understand what happens some times with my 9 on takeoff in gusty crosswinds. With winds from the right (our typical cross winds) I incorrectly have been keeping the nose wheel down too long thinking it would help the plane track better. I'd add lots of rudder and the more I added the more it would want to go left until the nose is lifted then all was fine and easily controlled by the rudder.
Click to expand...

Glad to see that us 12 drivers aren't the only ones who can take advantage of Scott's fantastic tips. Others will never know, until they try it!

Tom
 
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