Jumbo

Jumbo

Well Known Member
Hi,

since last year I am using the Subaru Robin for my travel to company internal business meetings from ie. Germany via Antwerp (Belgium) to the United Kingdom (all this side of the pond - Europe). This is the Robin – all wood :))):

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The legs are between 35 minutes (this is the ´cheaters route´ via Belgium) and 55 minutes (direct over the North Sea) over water. In FEB/MAR and OCT/NOV the water is too chilly so even with a life vest which I am wearing every time of course the chances are small to survive if I have to ditch (heaven forbid :eek:).

So this year I am looking for a small one person life raft (ie. www.switlik.com/pdf/isplr_brochure.pdf) which I intend to use in the RV-4 from March onwards as well (so a bigger raft is no option).

Questions:
a.) does anybody have experience with the small life rafts in real life from trainings (ie. from the military),
b.) has someone used such a thing in the RV-4 cockpit and
c.) has somebody one for sale maybe?

Thanks, Heinz
 
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Jumbo said:
a.) does anybody have experience with the small rife rafts in real life from trainings (ie. from the military),
b.) has someone used such a thing in the RV-4 cockpit and
c.) has somebody one for sale maybe?
Click to expand...

Heinz,

I had a fair amount to do with the development of crew escape equipment for the vehicle I fly at work, and the truth of the matter is - unless you're wearing a good survival suit, the life raft is probably not going to be as useful as you might think in the North Sea - you'll only have a short time to get in to it, and even then, won't survive very long due to the exposure. The raft you showed looks very nice, but I can tell you that getting in to one can take more effort than you think. I've done a good amount if training with a similar type, and while you wouldn't be wearing a similar type of suit in an RV, it is quite a chore to ingress the raft.

Which is not to say that it might not be worth having - tales of survival are full of superhuman efforts that have saved lives - I just wouldn't count on it. If you really want to prepare for a ditching, then I'd plan on both a dry suit and the raft (which should be attached to you) - otherwise, the odds are going to be very long for survival.

Paul
 
North Sea Survival Gear

1. For the North Sea in winter I'd recommend a dry suit. You won't have much time if you ditch in the North Sea without one. Not cheap, but good insurance. If you can't get the raft out after the ditching (or get to your raft due to sea state/wind) the dry suit will keep you alive for a long time. These are available from a number of sources, including Aircraft Spruce. See http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ps/apparel_suits.html
See also: http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/category.php?mc=70

2. I'd also recommend an overwater survival vest with a PLB, strobe, etc. in any season. A good example (with contents list) is listed at:

https://www.aeromedix.com/product-e...r_Essentials_Overwater_Aviator_Survival_Vest_


3. Life raft reviews are available on Doug Ritter's website (equipped.org) at:
http://www.equipped.org/raftstoc.htm
This site also has some great equipment lists and ditching information for pilots.

Good luck,
Mike
 
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Can't you climb to altitude and almost glide to either side? Isn't your time where you can't make the shore only 10 minutes or so? I would buy one of those cold water survival suits instead of a raft.
 
I agree with all the above.

Heinz,

The chances are if you ditch in the North Sea in either of your planes that it will flip inverted due to the fixed gear. This is going to make egress very difficult for you and your life raft. I notice that you do the longer sea leg between Belgium and England. If you were to fly a little bit further on to Calais / Cap Gris Nez then the over water leg to Dover is down to about 15 minutes in the Robin and a bit less in the RV. The Robin will float longer than the RV which will sink like a stone in probably less than 5 minutes.

Get a good immersion suit and wear it on the over water leg. Even in the summer survival times in the North Sea / English Channel could be down to less than an hour.

I have flown the Channel over thirty times in light aircraft. I must admit that I have never worn an immersion suit, just a life jacket. However, I have always flown the Calais/Dover route which gives you the shortest sea leg and the window of risk is just over 5 minutes. The good thing about this route that there is nearly always a convenient car ferry nearby.
 
forget the life raft. In the cold water of North Atlantic that time of year you will lose most if not all of your fine motor dexterity in only a few minutes that alone will make life raft entry more difficult than it is normally. Add a single arm or hand injury and you will be toast. Not to mention your first order of business is to escape the airplane so you can breathe, which is hard to do while it is sinking and you have a life raft to think about. Go with a dry suit, a good inflatable life vest with all the usual survival stuff. At least in that part of the world rescue should be measured in minutes not hours.

For us Navy rules dictate any time the sea surface temp is below 60 deg F and/or wind chill corrected temp is 32 or lower we are required to wear a dry suit over water, period. It can get a little toasty when you wear it but once you are in it, its not too bad. Oh, don't eat Mexican food before you wear one :)
 
Heinz,

I flew out of a Norwegian Air Force Squadron for a week (years ago and in the dead of winter) and their pilots had survival suits that were far lighter and bearable than our USAF suits. I would certainly check to see if they have survival suits for sale to civilians. Even with the suit your survival time will be very short in the winter, so I concur with previous suggestions to climb high and take the shortest route.

I'd also recommend carrying survival gear (flares and smoke signals. etc.) in a vest. Don't rely on having time to get your hands on it before the bird sinks. Make your rescuers see you...it is a big ocean!

Good luck!

Jim
 
Stan Switlik is a friend of mine. They make great survival life rafts of all sizes. I have one of their 4 place self inflating rafts(on a boat) and am glad to have never needed it. As much as I respect their product, I would agree with the concensus that a quality dry/survival suit is the more practical way to go in your situation.

George
 
Heck, with the cost of that dry suit from Spruce, I can sell you a really nice 3 ply Gortex dry suit that I used for White water Kayaking at a fraction of a cost.

I would think the dry suit is the way to go
 
Step one: egress!

Heinz,

Sounds like you do a fair number of trips. Apart from the life jacket, dry suit, survival vest, flares, PLB and life raft, GETTING OUT OF THE AIRCRAFT is step one. Even for white water kayaking I spent a lot of time upside down in a swimming pool, rehearsing, before I got anywhere near a river. I seem to remember my father, during his time attached to the US Navy (maritime reconnaissance) spending days in a device called a dunker(??). Anyone using helicopters to get to the north sea oil rigs I think has to spend time training in underwater escape.

Maybe some training/rehearsal, even if it isn't type specific - possibly via one of the North Sea helicopter firms or whatever company they use for training, might be a sensible investment for that moment when it all suddenly goes cold, quiet, and very dark, and you're not sure which way is up? :eek::eek::eek:

Just a thought.

Chris
 
WOW - feels good that so many people care about me ...

... ha, without joking: thanks for the valuable advice!!

As I am doing ca. 20 channel crossings per year I am serioulsy considering what you are saying. What I get from this is that I should

  • re-plan and take the shortest route over water (ca. 15 mins than vs. 55 mins) and refrain from the temptation to short-cut for the saving of 10 minutes of a 2 hrs trip (even if this means I will be going via France than - someone familiar with French ATC? :))

  • get trained (mentally) on ditching and how to get out of the plane (physically with a training facility)

  • not over-rely on the rafts and other devices but look into the white water suits and wearing my life vest for sure on the tna 15 mins trip over the water.

So I will do that - thanks for comments; really cleared my mind!!

Cheers, Heinz
 
Underwater Escape Training

I know the military/ex-military aviation folks here will likely have had plenty of opportunity to do underwater escape training on a regular basis. I don't think it's quite so common for the regular GA pilot.

Not long after I got my pilot's license I bought a share in a group-owned "Stealth Black" Cessna 150. It was a good group of guys that called themselves the Dirty Dozen. We used to organise various events, one of which was "Dunk Training". Now, nobody would accuse me of being a keen swimmer. I really don't like the water at all so I was more than a little uneasy about signing up to go along, but I did.

To cut a long story short, it was one of the most valuable flying-related training actvities I have ever done. It was definately NOT a nice experience for a poor swimmer but for giving you a tiny insight into what it might be like to ditch a small plane in the sea it was first rate.

The most import things I learnt were all about preparation for egressing the aircraft: have a plan; know intimately (with your eyes closes) where all the door/canopy/harness handles/controls are; get to know instinctively how to operate them (even work out what difference being upside down would make); be prepared for the shock of the cold water; timing, clarity of thought and speed of action are everything. And finally, in the words of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - DON'T PANIC!

You can read a write-up of the of the Dunk Training on the Dirty Dozen's website here: http://www.gbpax.org.uk/Images/dunkers/dunkers.htm

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I'm the one in the red helmet (indicating I'm not a strong swimmer!).

The Underwater Escape Training was carried out with these folks in Swanwick, Hampshire, UK:
http://www.andark.co.uk/other-training/underwater-escape/huet/

BOTTOM LINE:
If you ever fly over water and have never done this sort of training then book yourself on a course.
It might save your life one day.

Happy (dry) flying!
 
Jumbo said:
re-plan and take the shortest route over water (ca. 15 mins than vs. 55 mins) and refrain from the temptation to short-cut for the saving of 10 minutes of a 2 hrs trip (even if this means I will be going via France than - someone familiar with French ATC?
Click to expand...

The major problem I have found with French ATC is understanding them. All of us Brits love to hear a French woman talking English. But that changes when your trying to pass messages over the radio. I have had to ask French ATC to repeat messages because of their accent. This can lead to confusion and mis-understanding.

Take a look at this.

You can do a lot in advance to help yourself if you have any problems over water. For instance, the Brits are quicker to respond with a helicopter if you have to ditch. The normal handover point from French ATC to the Islandmonkeys is Mid-Channel. You can move the Mid-Channel point a bit closer to France (where is Mid-Channel anyway, its not shown on any maps) to be in contact with The Brits longer. I would also avoid talking to London Information. Talk to Manston Approach instead. The area covered by London Information is huge and the frequency can get very busy. Manston is much closer and they will scramble a chopper quicker.
 
don?t want to hijack this post but the link IS related to this topic ...

Anthony,

thanks - had a good lough with your link re the French. This one takes the pi$%§?ss out the us Germans - AND it is actually related to the topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmOTpIVxji8

Yes, Manston is much better than London Information - however they have recently changed their frequency to 132.450 (don´t ask me how I know ....).

Cheers, Heinz
 
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Brave

Single engine aircraft 55 mins over the North Sea in winter - wow Heinz, you're brave !

I'll be taking trips to Austria when my 7 is finished and the only route I like the look of is Calais - some people say "why? the aircraft doesn't know it's over water" ! true, but I do, and that's all that matters.....:)

good luck
 
longer is saver ....

shiney said:
Single engine aircraft 55 mins over the North Sea in winter - wow Heinz, you're brave !
good luck
Click to expand...

.... or just stupid - don´t know really.

I have been a 1st officer on Cessna C414 and C421 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_421) when I was mid twenties (so already twenty years ago - time flies) and it always felt good to have two engines over sea which is today no option cost wise for me AND as said the channel crossing is the pretty much the only time I fly over water.

Have re calculated the direct route from EDLT to EGTR via Hamstede HSD, RIMBU to SABER (301 NM and 2:18 hrs with the Subaru Robin, 55 mins over water) vs. my usual route via Costa (COA), BULAM, Manston/EGMH (310 NM, 2:24 hrs, 35 mins over water) vs. the new route via Costa (COA), Calais (LFAC) to Dover/DVR (324 NM, 2:39 hrs, 10 mins over water).

Bottom line: 10 mins sweating vs. 55 mins sweating (in a life threatening situation in principal, no doubt) and in exchange of 15 mins longer flight time over all on a 2:30 hrs trip.

That is a no brainer, will go the longer but safer route (more ATC though and everytime a ´Bonjour Calais Tower …. here I come´: a German in a Dutch registered French built all wooden plane with a Japanese car engine which´s conversion was done in USA; better I don´t tell them the whole story :p).

I wonder why I need a long conversation on a forum to come to that conclusion - sorry for pestering you all and thanks for the advice.

Heinz
 
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