F

f16weav

Member
Does anyone in the forum know of a Flying Club using a RV or experimental aircraft within their Flying Club? I've "googled" it and have had no luck.

If so, are there any legal limitations? FARs? Insurance? other issues?
Thanks,

Scott
 
Scott,
I don't know of any, but I would think it wouldn't be allowed. The way I understand it, other than for transition training, you can't use an experimental for hire/compensation. Most clubs stay in business by at least having some profit to keep things running.

Tobin
 
flying club non-profit...

At least the one I was in until recently. So, using an experimental should not be a problem. I often felt that my club should start ditching the production airplanes and go build an RV-9 or two.

In retrospect however, I think we would have destroyed an RV based on some of the issues that we've seen with the club airplanes. The club airplanes sit in tie downs year round (up here in the Northeast) and are flown by multiple pilots of widely varying skills and attitude. It's ok for an old Cessna, but I'd sure hate to see an RV exposed to the same treatment.

Anyway, good luck with your project. It can be done but not easily.....

John
 
re:I think it should be ok

My understanding of it is that most flying clubs aren't businesses in the normal sense. The club I used to be involved in was set up and operated like a very large partnership. Each of the clubs 45 or so members was a co-owner of the club and its 3 airplanes. It's true that the club has to make money because you have to stay solvent but all the 'customers' are owners.

Because of this we were able to use the airplanes for flight instruction without having to do 100-hour inspections since techincally, the planes are not operated for hire.

It's a gray area to be sure, but I don't think there's anything in the regs to prevent you from operating an experimental in a large co-ownership/flying club sort of situation. I would think getting insurance might be more of an issue but I'm basing that on spectulation and nothing more.
 
John_RV4 said:
In retrospect however, I think we would have destroyed an RV based on some of the issues that we've seen with the club airplanes. The club airplanes sit in tie downs year round (up here in the Northeast) and are flown by multiple pilots of widely varying skills and attitude. It's ok for an old Cessna, but I'd sure hate to see an RV exposed to the same treatment.
Click to expand...

The first club I belonged to had a member who liked to twist things until they broke. 1 non-Vernier Mixture (pretty much all cessnas before 78) and one squelch knob on a radio. Based on that and other things (Flat spots on tires, running into things, etc..)I doubt an RV would last through the abuse I've seen that poor 172 take.

On the other hand, I doubt it would be a problem to form a flying club legally, it might be a insurance disaster though.
 
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Legality is the least of worries

I leased a plane to the McDonnell Douglas Flying Club for about 7 years and I had the responsibility for everything to do with the plane except scheduling so I became quite intimate with the negligent treatment of aircraft and the lack of talent posessed by some pilots in the rental group. I stayed on top of my plane (cleaned out the vomit, touched up the paint, got the maintenance done promptly and I flew the plane myself regularly) so it remained in good shape but some dreamy eyed guys wanted to be owners of high performance airplanes and theirs was a different story. Low performance planes were abused too but the high performance planes brought down the club. Some of the more dramatic stories from our club:

- One young member student pilot stole the keys out of the lock box one night after the bars closed and took a man and a woman who worked in the bar for a ride in a Cessna 150. They crashed into the Pacific Ocean off of Newport Beach. All were killed and the bodies were recovered over a period of weeks.

- One pilot took another Cessna 150 to the Colorado River area and ran out of fuel on the return flight and was killed when he crashed into a power station in the Riverside area.

- One evenng, after I had gotten out of the club, I was flying home from work and as often happened I was instructed to cross over the airport for left traffic for 19L behind behind a Mooney 201 that was in the club. I recognized the pilot's voice (who publicly ran down Cessna 172s as beneath his standards) and observed that he was doing touch and goes in the Mooney. It was almost dark. He was cleared to land and I watched his lights go down toward the runway the about half way down the runway it spun off into the grass to the left. The plane was extensively damaged and I believe it was totaled by the insurance company.

- One big ego low talent pilot took a Bonanza A36 plane load of people to Catalina Island but landed high upon returning to John Wayne Airport (stalled out over the runway) and totaled the airplane. No one was injured but the pilot quite the club because they didn't have anymore high performance airplanes. That just about did it for AVEMCO and the club that had been in existance for many years folded shortly there after.​

A rental situation is no place for an experimental airplane.

Bob Axsom
 
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I've got my share of similar stories from my time in a flying club. It just seemed like the club attracted guys with weak skills. The club had a 172 and a 182. Both had been the victim of numerous landing 'incidents'. The 182 was wheel-barrowed in by one guy and afterward it was discovered that he'd bent the firewall and the nosegear was hanging on by one bolt. The mount had cracked around the other 3. I think you could measure on your wrist watch the amount of time it would take some typical flying club members to either ground loop a TD RV or put an -A on its back. That's not to say RVs are at all unsafe or particularly hard to handle. It's just to say, they're not Cessna 150s and they're not supposed to be.

In fact, speaking of 150s, the guys that busted into the DC ADIZ and got escorted to Fredrick last year were in a flying club C150. One guy was a student who hadn't yet started learning navigation and so knew nothing about it. The other guy hadn't flown a cross-country in 20 years and had no idea there was an ADIZ over Washington. Niether got a weather briefing. Typical flying club story in my experience.
 
Flying club

I'm a member of a flying club here in Switzerland, and it works really well. The reason it works well is that there is one guy that is the airport manager, head instructor, and the chief pilot on the field who runs things with an iron fist covered in velvet.

He's a great instructor, and before anyone takes out any of the five aircraft, he spends a lot of time with them doing touch and goes. Also, to get checked out in any of the aircraft, you're looking at a good 3 hours of transition training, including flight under simulated full load conditions.

Rules here are pretty strict on maintenance. These aircraft are in better shape than most of the privately owned planes on the field. I've never seen a single drop of oil under any of them. They were all bought new, most in the 70s, and the entry trainer, a piper warrior, has over 15,000 hours. I have no idea how many engines have been installed in that aircraft. Here's a picture of that little gem on the apron:

586019.jpg


My point is that aero clubs can work, and like most successful organizations, it takes one or more driving forces to make it happen.
 
That's an impressive looking plane Mickey. Clubs can indeed work. I just wish they worked more often because generally, they're the most affordable way to fly.
 
I Toured Your Country

My wife and I toured Switzerland twice in the past 15 years (Zurich, St.Moritz, Zermatt, Genova, Berne, Brienz, Interlaken, Lucerne) but I do not remember seeing such a nice airport. Yours is a beautiful country; reminds me of Northwest Arkansas.

Bob Axsom
 
Partnership

Guys,

All great inputs....but maybe I should have called this thread an expanded partnership of an RV and not a Flying club..say from 3 to 6 guys with good flight experience. This would not be your normal C152/172 everyday flying club type airplane.

SW
 
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Lsgc

Switzerland is a beautiful country, but I can't really claim it since I'm from Texas. There are a lot of really pretty places, and I've gotta say all the airports I have seen are really pretty. This airport is LSGC near La Chaux-de-Fonds, claimed to be the highest IFR-equipped airport in Europe at about 3300'. I'm sure you guys out west are not too impressed with that altitude, but it's considered high for Europe.
 
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