RVAddict

Well Known Member
Guys,
I will be starting my PPL lessons in January and just wanted to ask. How do you think flying a Citabria will compare to flying an RV? (-4 or -8) My instructor normally does his traing in Cessnas, he owns a 150 and 172. He bought this Citabria after somebody ground-looped it and he repaired it. Now I want to take my lessons in it for obvious reasons: Its a taildragger, it's a two seat tandem, stick and rudder as apposed to having a yolk, and it's aerobatic. Plus it just looks WAY better than a Cessna!! :D My question is, will that be a good "transition" aircraft to an RV? I'll probably continue to fly it until the magical day when I can buy my own RV.
Thanks for your input guys!!
Josh
 
Learning to fly in the Citabria, if you have a good tailwheel instructor, then you'll do fine in a tailwheel RV.

Speed-wise, that's a whole nuther ball of wax. I flew Mooneys for a while, and I think they translated very well in terms of transitioning. The M20F and early M20J have relatively low gear & flap extension speeds...so it forced me to learn how to plan my approaches and slow up without being able to dump drag inducers into the slipstream.

Same thing in the RV. In the -8 you can't dump half flaps until below 110 MIAS, full flaps below 100 MIAS...so you need to plan ahead.

A constant speed prop helps slowing down as well, so if you plan to have a CS prop, obviously try to get some time in something with a CS prop.

Regardless of all of this, nothing beats the real thing. Instead of splurging on Mooney rentals (I don't even want to know what it costs to rent these days), spend the bucks on actual RV transition training, and you'll do just fine.

Have fun!
 
I might get flamed for this, but it's my opinion that you'd be better off learning in the Cessnas, for a couple of reasons. They are much more forgiving of poor technique, which is what you will have for the first 30-40 hours at least. You won't know how to land an airplane by getting the flying energy out of it first, until you've botched enough of them to know how to prepare for a good landing EVERY time. Second, the 172 is a bit faster, has flaps, and will help you to overcome crosswind landing fears earlier in your training.

I know folks have learned in taildraggers for years, but the accident rates (and insurance rates) are higher in these for a good reason: the risk of bending the thing is greater. I fly a Super Decathlon now when I get the urge for some tailwheel time, and it's a good teacher. I'm glad I got my primary training in a 172, however. I might not have stuck with it in a taildragger, given the winds we get here in the winter.

Dave
 
training

josh-
From everything i have heard getting a tailwheel endorsment is one of the best things to do to become a better pilot....however I don't know how good the citabria would be for going through the entire private pilot training. Having never flown a citabria i couldn't tell you how it compares to the rv....but i do know that it will have a similar roll rate and the general manueverablity will be very similar. Just a little background on myself... i got my private two years ago and had the option to go through the course in a cessna or a cirrus....so obiviously (having the option) i chose the cirrus....the only downside to that was now im going for my instrument at university of north dakota and flying piper warriors....the training in a cirrus was so simple and clean compared to flying the mushy, heavy warriors....now i also fly an rv and it relates more to the cirrus because of speed and manueverablity....ok so what im basically trying to say is the best way to go (in my opinion) would be to go through the private in a training aircraft...once you fly a cessna or piper you can pretty much fly anything that is more manueverable....others might have different opinions....but in my case...going from high performace to the warrior....i found that if anyone could fly the warrior....they would be well prepared to transition to higher performance....I think that the best thing to do is go through the private in a training aircraft and then get the tailwheel endorsment after you've been through the bulk of the private course....this will make the whole thing much easier and i dont see the citabria being the best option for the all around training required for the private.....just my thoughts....
 
The Citbria is a good RV trainer if you have a good instructor that knows RVs. Biggest difference is the MUCH lighter ailerons on the RV.
 
Mel said:
The Citbria is a good RV trainer if you have a good instructor that knows RVs. Biggest difference is the MUCH lighter ailerons on the RV.
I would agree, but for primary flight instruction?
 
I can't talk regarding Citabria's being similar to RV's (I have about 20 minutes of time in an RV) but re: Citabrias and PPL.

I got my PPL in a Citabria. If I had to do it over, I wouldn't change a thing. All this business about crosswinds, landings, more difficult, etc, is a non-issue if you learn to do it right in the first place (which you will because you have to). You'll come away scratching your head and wondering what all the fuss is about. Some TD's are pretty hairy, and need to be well respected (not feared) but the Citabria's a pussycat, gives you plenty of warning and plenty of authority to fix things.

It sure beats sitting in traffic regardless whatever you train in, though... :D

Just my $.02
 
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Another 2 cents

For the Citabria PPL issue, that ought to be a no-brainer if you had to make a choice. I learned to fly in Nebraska outside Omaha in the late 80's using an Aeronca 7DC but had to transition to a Citabria for the last 10 hours as the old Champ didn't have electrical (no night, no VOR training). Took the PPL checkride in the Champ and had a great time and I probably had 80 hours before I flew something with a nosewheel. That goes for flaps too. Every landing up till then was no-flaps. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.

Jim
 
compare and contrast

flying a Luscombe 8A vis a vis a Citabria.

Are the comments for the Citabria equally applicable for a Liscombe? Would the 8A be better or worse?

thanks,

John
 
The more the better.

Josh and John,
The advice you are getting from these posts might appear conflicting, but it isn't. If you look at Dan's advice for example the Mooney helped him
Every aircraft helps. The more types you fly the easier it will be as they all offer 'experience' of a differnet type. For example, some helicopter time would help in preparing you for the very small stick inputs required on an RV, but time in an Angry Palm Tree is vey expensive..
It might take you longer to solo in a Citabria (Though I doubt it) but then you won't be spending 5-10hrs getting a tailwheel endorsement.
It will take you at least two years to build your RV and in that time fly everything you can.
Meanwhile, it you like the Citabria, fly that.
But which every way you go, get soem RV transition training before flying your beloved masterpiece.
Pete.
 
Weigh the P's and C's

Weigh the pros and cons. The Citabria will help you build good habits that will translate well to most other light aircraft, Tricycle or Conventional, but the 172 is a better learning platform.

I've ridden in RV's, but have yet to actually fly one, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I couldn't tell you which one is closer to an RV. But in general, just learn to fly. Properly learned, you can adapt.

I learned in a 172. For me, the best benefit of learning in the 172 was it being side-by-side. The CFI could point to something and SHOW me how to use it in the air, instead of telling me about it. Also, with the additional panel space, your navigation and CC training are going to be more rewarding. That being said, one can afford to be a little sloppy in transition and on the ground in the 172. The Citabria, or other TW, won't let you get away with slop.

I recently completed my TW endorsement in a 2005 Citabria. It was the first time I ever had to actually get into a spin, learn to FEEL and SEE the signs, and actually what to do to get out of one and or prevent one that is about to happen. All I got in the PPL course was spin theory. Doing it is a whole different world. I promise, it's unfogetable. For cross-wind landings, I wish I had learned in the Citabria from the beginning. Build good habits first, it's far easier that changing bad ones that have really sunk in.

Things that I would do differently if I could start over, knowing what I know now, if possible:

First flight familiarity, what control input does what to the plane, basic instrument orientation stuff, etc in the 172.

Learn ground handling, TO's and 3-pt Landings in the Citabria
Spin awareness in the Citabria

Cross country training in the 172.

Check-ride in 172.

And as soon as that was finished, I would go through a basic aerobatics course in the Citabria, or even better, a Decathlon. Then you can REALLY get a good understanding of what the controls do at all airspeeds and attitudes. I think the basic aerobatic introduction has done wonders for my coordinated flight awareness and general safe handling of the airplane. Period.

Plus it was a lot of fun.


Best advice I can give... Just do it. Tell your instructor about your desires as a pilot, the ultimate goal. Let your instructor teach the way they feel is best based on their experience, knowledge, and assesment of your skills and abilities. When your RV is ready to fly, get transisiton training in an RV as similar as possible to your own.
 
Here's something else to consider.

Let's say it costs about $5k to get your license in either Cessna or Citabria. Let's say you train in the Cessna. Now you want your tailwheel endorsement. Slap another $1k on!

Compare that to training in the Citabria. You get your tailwheel endorsement "for free." Now you want to fly a 172. The cost to transition will be far less (both in terms of time & money) when compared to having to add on a tailwheel endorsement.

Cost-wise the Citabria is probably gonna win hands down. And that's bucks you can put into a nicer engine or CS prop or avgas for your RV.
 
If you think there is a tailwheel airplane in your future (or maybe even if you don't!), do the primary training in the taildragger. You will be a better pilot for it in the end and will learn to really fly the airplane.
I see no reason why a cessna nosedragger would be any better as a primary trainer than any of the previously mentioned tailwheel airplanes (maybe more electrics / whizzbangs, but you're learning to fly, not twist knobs and look inside the cockpit!)

just my .02

T.
 
Gliders

I have to agree that from a cost-time perspective, learning in a citabria would be a good idea for a new pilot who intends to do a lot of tailwheel flying. However, I have an additional suggestion to make. In my personal experience (22,000 hours; current airline check airman), nothing will teach better basic airmanship than flying sailplanes.

An hour in a glider is probably worth about ten hours in a single engine airplane for a low time pilot still polishing his basics. Glider pilots learn stick and rudder skills, basic introductory formation work (on tow), energy management, and planning for unforseen eventualities (ever see a glider make a go-around?) very thoroughly - its a matter of survival. Unfortunately, it is also about ten times harder to get an hour of glider time than it is to get an hour of powered time. For this reason, I would reccomend soloing in a powered airplane first, then brushing up on basics in a glider, before going on to finish your power rating. Obviously, individual circumstances may prohibit doing everything quite like this, but if I were mentoring a new pilot through the training process, this would be my ideal learning path.

Pat
 
Interesting.

Never thought of flying in a glider. But i've never seen one either. Don't think there's much demand for them in rural Western Kentucky! :D

Josh
 
I don't have access to a Citabria but do a Luscombe 8A. Would the advice you are giving for a Citabria be equally applicable for a Luscombe?

thanks

John
 
Deuskid said:
I don't have access to a Citabria but do a Luscombe 8A. Would the advice you are giving for a Citabria be equally applicable for a Luscombe?
You bet!

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Learning to Fly

I gotta jump in on this, but to start I have to say that everything written so far has been great.

I go through the mental exercise periodically of how I'd teach someone to fly, or want to be taught if I were to do it over again. When I learned I had access to a VERY inexpensive Cessna 172 (like $10 per tach hour plus gas, which at the time was well under $2/gal) and I had a free instructor. I think I was his first and only PPL student - he mostly did training for type certs in big stuff (e.g. he once got me 15 min. stick time during a 2 hour ride in a Lockheed Super-Constellation he was teaching in). Bottom line, he was and is my hero for the lessons, but I've had cause to wonder how PPL training could be done better. Here are a few thoughts:

1. I may get flamed for this, but START in an ultralight IF you can find an instructor with a good reputation and good equipment. If you were in Southern AZ I'd introduce you to H.L. Cooper. He gave me transition training to ultralights and I found them to be:
a. inexpensive to fly,
b. very responsive (you will build extraordinary stick-and-rudder skills),
c. very fun (think motorcycle with wheels),
d. easy to fly safe, but take real effort to fly well/precisely,
e. free of the distractions of radio(s) and the need to navigate, and
f. generally flown where there is little or no traffic.
I would do 10-15 hours or so until you both solo it and your stick-and-rudder skills are very good. Among other things, you should aim to be able to spot land on an 18" strip across the runway (one of HL's requirements).

2. I would then transition to a Citabria, again provided you can get a good instructor. I would fly this at least up through solo because:
a. it's probably cheaper than a 172,
b. you'll get your tail-wheel stuff done early and keep your feet smart,
c. it's very good airplane to fly pre-solo as you'll feel like you're flying solo most of the time anyway (tandem seating),
d. they're more fun than a 172 (I own a Decathalon and can't imagine a more fun plane to fly, other than the RV-7 I'm building :) ),
e. you can do spin-training, and some mild aerobatics. Stalls will be less scary for you this way, and once you're use to 60 degree banks, the 45 degree ones for your check ride will be easy.
During this phase, since you'll already have good stick-and-rudder skills, you'll be spending more time and attention on navigation and communication, which are MUCH easier if you are confident about the aviation.

3. Along the way I'd get some glider/sailplane time, provided you have access to a qualified instructor. I'd get enough to solo (perhaps as little as 4-6 hours by now), if for no other reasons than:
a. It's really fun,
b. it's not too expensive,
c. you'll feel much more confident about making an engine out landing if you ever have to, and
d. you'll learn more about air movement and using it to your advantage than you ever would in a powered plane.

4. Before check ride I'd PROBABLY transition to a 172 because:
a. Your check ride will be easier in one unless you are fortunate enough to have an examiner that is a tailwheel person (rarer than you might think), and
b. you'll make yourself look great in a nose-dragger having all that tailwheel and ultralight time.

Do all of this in 40-60 flight hours and you'll have more fun than doing it all in one plane, you'll learn to aviate before you learn to navigate and communicate, and you may even save a few bucks over doing it all in a 172. Most importantly, in my opinion, you'll be a much better new pilot.

Then, when your RV is done, do like I plan to do, and get transition training before you fly it.

Just my 2 cents. I am not a flight instructor, though one day maybe, but I have been teaching SCUBA for nearly 19 years and I do know a thing or two about teaching and learning.

George
 
Another two cents worth...

They are all airplanes, the difference between a taildragger and a trike is only in ground handling and take off and landing. I would suggest starting your training in whatever is the most cost effective (read cheapest.) In most cases it will be a 152 or the like. Get comfortable with the basics then transition to the taildragger. Mastering "little wheel in back" flying will be much simpler if you are at ease in the air. A tip: when you are flying a trike try to keep it EXACTLY on the centerline of the runway. That will keep your feet involved and will be a big help in the transition.

John Clark
ATP CFI
KSBA RV8 N18U
 
Start training in the taildragger

I began my PPL training in a Champ, eventually transitioning to the Cessnas only when I needed something with a radio - ha! You'll develop the necessary happy feet quickly, and will be avoiding bad habits that would be masked by the tricycle gear planes. I wanted to get my stick and rudder flying down first, then worry about cruising around talking on the radio. In addition, as Dan pointed out, it's a lot cheaper transition from the taildragger to the Cessna than vice-versa.
 
You know, George has a good point. I hadn't thought about it in a while, but I was out of flying for several years. When I got back into it, it was in ultralight types (2 place). When I went for my first flight review in a long time, the CFI commented that he had done several flight reviews for people who had been flying ultralights and was impressed with all of them.
And Dan, another point that you left out about learning in a Citbria besides the proficiency is that extra tailwheel time in you log book. That looks good to your insurance company.
 
Fun

I had about 130hrs in a 7GCBC before I flew my 8 and I can say that the only thing that really made me feel prepared to fly my RV was flying other RV's. The citabria is a great plane but it is not a RV, funny enough the RV is much easier to land than the citabria was, but I found the toughest part of transitioning was adjusting to the power and acceleration of the RV. Things happen much faster in the RV and you need to adjust to that.
But all of that said if you are buying,building a taildragger get as much tailwheel time as you can, you won't regret it.
As a very experienced pilot once told me if you took two new students, and one took their training in a 140 and one in a 152. After they soloed you could turn the 140 pilot loose in the 152 and just tell him to land like normal, but the 152 student would need a bit more time before he could take the 140 out.
YMMV..
 
Thanks Guys!

All of your comments are welcome and appreciated!! I am very excited to get to train in the Citabria. I will however do some of the time in the 172 for certain things, (night and IFR i think) Plus I want to be able to fly the 172 if I'm actually going somewhere and want to take my wife and another couple (going to eat at Lamberts in Sikeston, for example), but when I'm just going joy riding, I would much rather do it in the Citabria. :D

Keep the great info coming!

Josh
 
I couldn't agree with George more! I have about 600 hours in u/l's, mostly in the aerobatic Phantom. u/l's are quick, which is very good prep for an RV (although my RV time is very limited as yet.) The only bad habit I had to overcome when I came back to heavies (Cherokees and such) was remembering my seat was more than 6" off the ground. Very good practice.

I also have some glider experience and I probably learned more in them than anything I have flown. That was prior to my ppl but about a year after solo. I think I soloed in five or six flights--under an hour. Easy to fly but difficult to fly well.

I would add that even more important than what you fly is who is your instructor. My partner in our 9A learned at one of the big-name places. 29 instructors on staff, 26 of which were building time. I rode back seat during one "lesson" where I never saw anything being taught. Get someone who is interested in making you into a pilot, not just an airplane driver. I honestly think that may be harder than picking what model of airplane you are going to learn in, and certainly more important. (IMHO, anyway.)

Bob Kelly
 
Gliders and Luscombes - ahh, yes....

Just to chime in on two points:

(1) In my so far limited experience, learning to fly in a sailplane can be an EXTREMELY effective way to build skills quickly. I've only got a little more than 100 total hours, but the first 45 or so of those were in gliders. Exactly as mentioned, this requires you to learn to use the rudder effectively and with some finesse. According to my instructors, a lot of power pilots approach the rudder as almost an "all or nothing" proposition, but especially in a taildragger, a lot of times what's required is just a very subtle pressure. Glider flying gives you lots of opportunities to build a feel for that, plus it is just one holy heck of a lot of fun!

The biggest downside to gliders is the time commitment. For me it wasn't uncommon to spend upwards of eight or nine hours at the glider club and only log one or two twenty minute sled rides - not always a lot of lift here around DC! That said, if time availability is not a major concern, I can't think of a better way to get started than flying gliders. And it's cheap! The club I was in charged about $20/hour for a 2-33, plus about $15 for a 3,000 foot tow and a *free* (yep, you read that right!) instructor - most of whom were these incredibly cool WWII-era guys who stopped counting their hours when they got to 20 or 30,000 and now just want to help other people learn to fly. I popped for a couple $10 lunches for my glider instructor, who was almost embarrassed that I felt any inclination to compensate him for his time. How do you beat that!

(2) Other than a truly unforgettable ride in Dan C.'s RV-7, I don't (yet) have the background to compare the Luscombe to an RV, but with about 15 hours and more than 50 landings in the Luscombe I just want to *STRONGLY* recommend this sweet little plane to anyone interested in old school, Sunday VFR, "just for the fun of it" flying.

Apparently Luscombe's have a bit of a reputation for squirrely ground-handling and for generally being among the more difficult taildraggers out there. Maybe I'll feel differently when and if I ground-loop it (knock wood), but so far I just don't see it. I've made more than a couple less than perfect landings in the Luscombe so far, and while the plane gives you no doubt that you're doing it wrong and that immediate corrections are needed, it also responds to those corrections promptly and predictably. You're never going to wind it up over 105 knots or so unless the wings have ripped off and you've "gone ballistic," and it that sense I would imagine it's not an ideal substitute for genuine transition training in an actual RV. OTOH, if you're not interested in flying long cross countries (or if you are and you're particularly patient), I suggest that flying a Luscombe would be among the simpler and purer pleasures you will enjoy as a pilot.
 
gliders

I came into this thread pretty late, but I saw the post about gliders and couldn't resist. I also couldn't agree more.
I did my Glider Pilot License before I did my PPL. Flying gliders is great because you really focus on "flying"... at least for the gliding I did, there was no fussing around with maps, radios, mixture controls or fancy equipment in the cockpit... just stick and rudder. Instead of a needle and ball, we had a little string tied to the pitot tube that stuck up out of the nose... just keep that little string flying straight back toward you and you're (more or less) coordinated.
I loved flying behind the tow plane. I remember the first time I took the controls on Tow, I was all over the place. You really learn finesse on the controls when you have to master that art of keeping yourself directly behind the towplane.
As I remember, those of us who were glider pilots on my PPL course also really knew how to sideslip.
I miss my glider days... but I still think that training serves me well now when I fly small powered planes.
 
Deuskid said:
flying a Luscombe 8A vis a vis a Citabria.

Are the comments for the Citabria equally applicable for a Liscombe? Would the 8A be better or worse?

thanks,

John

John,

I've had (2) tail wheel check outs, Citabria and RV-6, and time and a few landings in the Luscombe and a Cub. (slow learner or what? :).

The techniques of flying each are similar regarding wheel landings and full stall landings but it ends there. Things happen quicker in the RV; the Citabria, Luscombe and Cub are much more docile and less fast. The RV with flaps is somewhat more complex and more so with a CS prop. The Citabria without flaps is slipped as a regular thing. Can't remember if the Luscombe had flaps. The Cub does not have flaps.

RV-8 or 8A? Good question. I definitely would go 8 even though I gave up early on a 7. The center line seat lends itself to emulating a WWII fighter which is my point of reference for real airplanes. Depends somewhat on how much work one wants to put into flying. The 8A definitely is less work, the 8 is more demanding but sure is cool in appearance.

I wrecked a 7A, rebuilt it as a 7, flew it twice and converted back to 7A. The 7 nearly ate my lunch using plan "A", a wheel landing, with an overheating engine - plan "B", a full stall landing, which anyone can do, worked OK although the engine was overheating more yet after a go around. :( I was really P.O'ed that day and friends have said the decision to go back to 7A was made in haste. Could be, but it is done and I'm not going back the other way although it could be done a couple weeks.

My take on Josh's original question re PPT in the Citabria - go for it. You can easily transition to a trike, much easier than transitioning to a TD after trike training. A good TD pilot does fly the trike with more precision on a regular basis, IMHO. Not many pilots have an opportunity to do the TD thing from the git go these days.

dd

John, it just occurred to me you are referring to the Luscombe 8A, not the RV-8A. Well, take the post as expanded to the RV-8, for what it is worth. :) My take on the Citabria vrs L-8A is no comment, don't know enough about either except they are tail draggers and slow as can be.
 
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Not many pilots have an opportunity to do the TD thing from the git go these days.
That's what I figured, that's why I was excited to learn he would train me in that instead of the 172! :D