C

CODon

Active Member
Been a long time that I have planned an extended trip where I didn't know the area or could jump on a high altitude IFR flight plan and fly the airways.
Well, planning a trip from Chadron, NE (CDR) to Santa Maria, CA (SMX) in the RV and the questions started popping up when I got to the Salt Lake and Vegas areas. Weaving my way through the restricted and MOAs got to be too much.

Where I got was fly VFR direct when it is easy and altitudes look good, and fly the V airways below the base of the class E airspace and burn a bit more gas for the tough areas. I'm sure that I will find a few short cuts, but am I missing something?
 
Western US

Hey Codon,

I fly a lot in the Western US IFR and know pretty well what to expect. After reviewing your flight I would suggest the following:

KCDR MMM LAS DAG PMD KSMX

This route will make the controllers happy and if you file or not you can always ask for direct to.... Weekends are more flexible around the military areas including the restricted spots so I would also suggest flight following if you are looking for shortcuts.
 
Sorry

Sorry, I will be VFR in the RV. I will certainly ask for flight following when I can get it and fly over the cat B spaces when necessary. I usually like the 8500ish altitudes when I can to keep the oxygen use down and the plane seems to like it a bit better. Thanks, Don
 
Foreflight

Put it in Foreflight and it looks like you have been there before. With exception of jumping over Las Vegas, I think you have avoided most of the problems. Thanks.
 
H-u-u-u-m-m-m-m

I don't think you are missing anything but for me, planning a flight to a new destination is one of the most joyful life enriching things I do. When I take off regardless of the primary form of navigation I am using, I always have a sectional chart out and pilotage and dead reckoning are fully active. MOAs don't REQUIRE and weaving and I do not.

Bob Axsom
 
I'm with Bob.

I live in the center of a MOA with F-15's and so on buzzing about almost daily.

Keep your eyes open and fly through them.

Best,
 
Be aware that flying at only 8500' msl over the West will often prevent flight following, not to mention placing hard things in your path if you try to go direct. Both radar and radio are not available that low in lots of places.

Like many/most regular Western VFR pilots, I generally plow through MOAs. They are so large and ubiquitous (along with Restricted areas) that avoiding the MOAs is too burdensome for my tolerance levels.
 
Drive right through the MOAs, but do contact the controlling agency for flight following. You can screw up an exercise as a "stranger", the military has to wait for you to drift by, ...or worse. Often, you can get permission to enter restricted areas, but the iffyness means you can't plan on it.

John Siebold
 
I usually prefer to avoid any MOA if active. If active, the risk of collision does exist. For those of you whom may have to operate within a MOA for professional reasons is one thing. As Pierre stated, keep your head on a swivel. In Pierre’s case, most of his flying day is at and below 300’ AGL. However, for the pleasure flyer transiting the airspace, even if you are under radar contact, your presence may be interfering with military training operations. For example, a six ship ACM (dog fight) sortie may be scheduled in your airspace. Center may have the training sortie delay their maneuvering until the slow mover clears the airspace. If the slow mover decides to transit the airspace not in communication with the controlling agency, that makes matters even worse.

Even electing to fly near the floor of an active MOA is dangerous. If ACM activities are going on believe me, those aircraft will be utilizing the vertical limits of the MOA. A F-15 conducting an evasive split S maneuver at 600 knots from 20,000 ft can quickly be in your face…even with your head on a swivel, you probably would never see it coming.

If I could figure out how to post it, I have a video of a six ship ACM training furball from the cockpit of an F-16. The safety value of reviewing such a video illustrates what little chance a high “g” maneuvering F-16 pilot has of seeing you.

You will hear on this forum that many do this all the time with no problem. What you need to hear is the dialog from the military pilot perpective.
Perhaps some of our fast mover pilots could chime in with their near miss experiences within MOA’s…it happens to many of them.

So, as you plan your cross country out west, remember, those MOA’s get used, if active, enter at your own risk.

JMHO.

Regards,
 
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As Louise mentioned, them are some big mountains out there! I have found anything less than 13.5k, flight following gets sketchy through many parts of Utah and Nevada. They will also drop you like a hot rock with little more than; "xxxN radar contact lost, sqwak VFR". They won't wait for a reply.
There are areas they will drop you well before you are in radio range of the next controller. Expect to be on your own for some of your flight.
Big mountains, vast country.

I always make an attempt to contact the controlling entity in MOA's to find out if they are active. I also let them know my altitude and if I will be transitioning the area maintaining that altitude. They will often come back even if they are active and let you know if your altitude is a factor or not, or tell you to not exceed a given altitude. Sometimes they give you a code and put you on FF even without asking.
I have a radio, it is very easy to use. Why not?
 
Codon

KCDR MBW MMM LAS PMD KSMX I added Medicine Bow.

You can go VFR at 12500 and cruise westbound on this route. You should have radio contact most of the way including radar for flight following. They may drop you a few times but you really don't have to talk to anyone after takeoff until you get close to KSMX. I would recommend talking and getting traffic advisories along the route. You would only cross through one MOA and having flight following would help if you are concerned crossing in them.
 
ex military

Thanks for all of the replies. As a 20 year Navy pilot, I have a real appreciation for MOAs and the activities that can go on in them. I hate to think of the number of times I have operated out of places like China Lake. Good advice on the altitude, I'll just drag along an extra oxygen bottle and stay at 12.5 or above when needed. I was just trying to avoid as many MOAs as possible and the suggested routes will do that and I always use flight following when ATC is cooperative, and most of the time they are. I'll pick a couple of fuel (potty) stops and give it a shot. Hope to get some nice flying out of CDR this week as the weather looks nice all week. I'll be working in CA a great deal through the winter, so will take advantage and fly out when the weather permits. Don
 
CODon;... As a 20 year Navy pilot said:
Don,

Was that you about ten years ago that scared the living &#%* out of us (thus ruining two car seats) during our drive on Hwy 395 north of Bishop!!! A pair of F-18's burnt the wax off the roof of our car during a fly-by. I wish I could have gotten a photo of the pass...with burners lit and a rooster tail of sand streaking across the desert floor, it would have been a photo fit for posting in the VAF calendar.

Regards,
Click to expand...
 
Did Chadron ever sort out their FBO fiasco? I came in there on fumes the day after the FBO carted their fuel to RAP and had to ferry car gas in cans.
 
Careful of the Special Use Airspace and the Military Training Routes leading to and from them. Like to see the high speed movers over here, it?s a thrill. And it?s rare that there is a problem but it does happen. This on an A6 running over an AgCat some time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t21a6A_LuBQ

pk
 
CDR and low pass

CDR has it sorted out. FBO is A&M Aviation and Jim at the FBO is one of the nicest guys you could meet. I did final assembly on my -7A there and it was great. They now have a self serve pump nicely located near the lobby. Their gas is not the cheapest in the area, but CDR has nice cross runways and the place is well maintained. I live in Denver, bur keep my -7A and C-140 up there where we have a ranch.

And low passes - when you have .8hrs left after you dump you ordnance, what are you supposed to do on the way home? I flew A-4s and special ops 130s and they both make a respectable low pass. And when you have a couple of hundred knots speed advantage over a car they all look fast especially when you approach from the rear. But those were the "old days". Now I just try to keep the medical current and the nose pointed down the runway.
 
MOA Near-Miss in CAVOK

Below is a more recent example of a near mid-air in a MOA. The T-38 is on a practice bomb run. IAS is approximately 360 kts. At the moment they are attempting to visually identify the bomb range. Their total attention is focused between locating the target outside and the HUD target steering information inside. They are too busy to be in a ?see and avoid? mode. The wx is CAVOK. ATC failed to call out the conflicting traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLVtstYAZLY

Be careful out there.

Regards,
 
Strasnuts said:
Hey Codon,

I fly a lot in the Western US IFR and know pretty well what to expect. After reviewing your flight I would suggest the following:

KCDR MMM LAS DAG PMD KSMX
Click to expand...

I'm based out of Santa Monica and have done the LAS to SBA flight many times. The route above is great but I would make one small change

KCDR MMM LAS DAG PMD FIM KSMX

By taking the turn slight south to Filmore you'll avoid flying over what is pretty hostile terrain if you have an engine out and according to my calcs it only adds 4 minutes of flight time and just under a gallon more fuel. From LAS to SMX you'll also be able to get flight following along the entire route at 8500, not sure about the KCDR to LAS part though.

While you're in the area I highly recommend a stop at Santa Ynez, it's a short and beautiful flight from SMX and a great little airport.

SBA to SMX was my first Xcountry flight ever way way back in 1996. I always have a smile on my face when I land there.
 
I'm surrounded by restricted airspace and MOAs. Much of the restricted airspace goes active and inactive with little notice. Any time I am leaving the local area, I add the faa's special use airspace map to my flight planning. It gives me a quick visual as to what is active and what is not. It is color coded by how far in the future things are active and you can filter by altitude. Click on map layers to filter. Here's the link: http://sua.faa.gov

Guy
 
Guy Prevost said:
I'm surrounded by restricted airspace and MOAs. Much of the restricted airspace goes active and inactive with little notice. Any time I am leaving the local area, I add the faa's special use airspace map to my flight planning. It gives me a quick visual as to what is active and what is not. It is color coded by how far in the future things are active and you can filter by altitude. Click on map layers to filter. Here's the link: http://sua.faa.gov

Guy
Click to expand...

Guy, thanks for the excellent link.

Regards,
 
Go West, Young Man

I fly out of Inyokern (IYK) next to the China Lake and Edwards ranges. I've never had trouble getting flight following - going east or west.

Many of the restricted areas become cold at various times - but some do not. Center was always aware - and cleared me through when inactive.

I try to maintain at least 2000' AGL enroute, changing altitude IAW VFR course rules. In some parts of NM, AZ, NV and UT you will not have either radar or radio coverage at 2000' AGL.

I'll go through MOAs - even active ones, usually low. Full blown ACM furballs have a hard deck at 5K AGL. Anything besides ACM I figure there is a good chance they'll pick up my non-stealthy -8A on radar. Still waiting for some fighter jock to do a close aboard beak to beak "investigative pass" so I can do a 5g -8A bat turn and point my nose at him to at least let him know I know he's there. If he stays level and turns I'll always be inside him - until he extends and positions for a face shot.
 
DAGO said:
Below is a more recent example of a near mid-air in a MOA. The T-38 is on a practice bomb run. IAS is approximately 360 kts. At the moment they are attempting to visually identify the bomb range. Their total attention is focused between locating the target outside and the HUD target steering information inside. They are too busy to be in a “see and avoid” mode. The wx is CAVOK. ATC failed to call out the conflicting traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLVtstYAZLY

Be careful out there.

Regards,
Click to expand...

A controller's comments wrt the youtube link above...

"I work at Vance AFB. We protect the MOAs from IFR traffic, via altitude seperation by having the civilian traffic at a specific alt. or by caping the pilot in the MOA at a certain alt. VFR traffic we could care less about we have alot else going on, we advise you that your entering a MOA and give you the working Alt's if you want to go in it your choice. Were not going to provide any seperation or even try."

Be careful out there!

Regards,
 
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without looking at a map BLD BTY SMX should miss all the restricted and avoid Las. MMM then to DAG sounds a little bit of a dog leg. Or stay north ILC OAL SMX.
 
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philip_g said:
without looking at a map BLD BTY SMX should miss all the restricted and avoid Las. MMM then to DAG sounds a little bit of a dog leg. Or stay north ILC OAL SMX.
Click to expand...

Might want to rethink that suggestion. R-2505 and the LAS Class B are issues.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
John Clark said:
Might want to rethink that suggestion. R-2505 and the LAS Class B are issues.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Click to expand...

Climb above the bravo or skirt the ring. All of those routes are used by jet traffic thousands of times a day so..... should not put you into anything you can't top.
HEC PMD would snake through as well.
 
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DAGO said:
VFR traffic we could care less about we have alot else going on, we advise you that your entering a MOA and give you the working Alt's if you want to go in it your choice. Were not going to provide any seperation or even try.
Click to expand...

That sounds real cooperative. NOT!
 
There is no real way for ATC to provide traffic advisories in a hot MOA. Most of the aircraft will not even have a transponder on. They more then likely will be engaged in rapid heading and altitude changes. We often ran in at 500 feet agl only to zoom climb to 20K in a few seconds. The advice about the hard deck is actually good for most MOA's. There are however exceptions with lots of low altitude high speed turning and burning. The Fallon NV MOA's and Nellis MOA's would be a example of the above and I would avoid them anytime they are hot. You really don't want to get caught in the middle of a 24 plane strike package doing 540 knots.

George
 
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