flyenforfun

Well Known Member
I have seen a thread before about people needing to make a spacer and use a regular rod end with a bolt to get the flap push rod to not interfere with the side of the fuselage.

Well I am in the same boat. But can anyone tell me why not only do I need a 3/4 inch spacer to make it not hit, but why do I only need it on the left side?

Is this even safe?

photo1-2.jpg
 
Not sure what to do instead.

I think you're going to have to track back through both the wing and fuselage assemblies and figure out how the flap drive parts ended up so far outboard.

* Is the flap drive torque tube weldment the same on both sides? Is it properly centered in the fuselage?

* Is the flap and its drive rib assembly built per plans?

* Is the flap mounted in the proper spanwise location on the wing? Are the piano hinges in the right spots? Are the two sides of the piano hinge meshed properly?

* Is the wing properly mounted to the fuselage? The wing main spar bolts are all in the right holes?

* Is the wing sweep (or rather, the lack thereof) within specs?

* Is the hole in the fuselage skin expanded outboard as far as practical? I seem to recall that the limiting factor on the RV-8 is a stiffener or riveted joint.

Somewhere in there is one or more errors that got things to where they are now. It could be a tolerance stackup of several of them, but somewhere I think you will find one particular thing that dominates the situation. Good luck, it is likely to be a rather tough puzzle and take rather some sleuthing to figure out.

Hopefully, some RV-8 builders more experienced than I will post up additional suggestions for where to look.

One additional thing I will say, I persist in the conviction that the spacer in your photo is too long, and will put too much bending moment into the plate on the flap. I think that joint will loosen pretty quickly in service, which will lead to premature failure and asymmetrical flap deployment. And that is a bad thing.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
... why not only do I need a 3/4 inch spacer to make it not hit ...

Matt and/or Matt,

Bob nailed it IMO when he said "Is the hole in the fuselage skin expanded outboard as far as practical?".

I had similar issues on my -8A until I really "hogged out" the hole in the fuselage to pass the flap pushrod. The pushrod can't be vertical; it needs to cant outward to some degree so it moves horizontally (to a small extent) as well as vertically.

The advice of one of my friends stuck in my mind as I enlarged the hole -- he said I'd have to remove "a lot more material than I was comfortable with". That turned out to be spot on (thanks, James!). I used a small sanding drum oriented in the direction of the pushrod travel and removed material until there was no interference. The tight little oval-shaped hole in the QB fuselage is just a fantasy :-(

I would not accept a spacer of that length due to the bending moment. Working from memory here but IIRC the plans allow one additional washer in addition to the specified lockwasher for a total of 0.125" as a spacer.

--
Joe
 
I would not accept a spacer of that length due to the bending moment. Working from memory here but IIRC the plans allow one additional washer in addition to the specified lockwasher for a total of 0.125" as a spacer.

--
Joe

I agree. One day, you're gonna forget or miss the "retract flaps" item on your before taxi checklist and take off with the flaps down. You begin to wonder why the plane won't accelerate beyond 135mph or so. You look out and have that "Oh S--t" moment. Don't ask me how I know.:eek: Thank God, Van over designed that mechanism.

If you're a math whiz, you can figure out the bending moment on that bolt and spacer. Might scare you.
 
Matt and/or Matt,

Bob nailed it IMO when he said "Is the hole in the fuselage skin expanded outboard as far as practical?".

I had similar issues on my -8A until I really "hogged out" the hole in the fuselage to pass the flap pushrod. The pushrod can't be vertical; it needs to cant outward to some degree so it moves horizontally (to a small extent) as well as vertically.

The advice of one of my friends stuck in my mind as I enlarged the hole -- he said I'd have to remove "a lot more material than I was comfortable with". That turned out to be spot on (thanks, James!). I used a small sanding drum oriented in the direction of the pushrod travel and removed material until there was no interference. The tight little oval-shaped hole in the QB fuselage is just a fantasy :-(

I would not accept a spacer of that length due to the bending moment. Working from memory here but IIRC the plans allow one additional washer in addition to the specified lockwasher for a total of 0.125" as a spacer.

--
Joe

The hole in our fuselage skin has already been opened up all the way up to that triangularish doubler/stiffener that is riveted to the skin on the side (the one with the notch in it for the push rod to "pass through"). Does your hole cut into that?
 
The hole in our fuselage skin has already been opened up all the way up to that triangularish doubler/stiffener that is riveted to the skin on the side (the one with the notch in it for the push rod to "pass through"). Does your hole cut into that?

In a word: yes. In a thousand words: well, here's a picture.

FlapPushrodClearanceHole.jpg


Feeling uncomfortable yet? :)

--
Joe
 
Why more extension needed only on one side?

Wing sweep?

The wings may either be swept forward (more on one side) or possibly the wings are parallel but not 90 degree to fuselage.

I can't speak directly from experience building an RV-8, just from my experience building an RV-7A/RV-4.

This may not help but provide a better understanding.
 
Wing sweep?

The wings may either be swept forward (more on one side) or possibly the wings are parallel but not 90 degree to fuselage...

Good point. A tape measure strung between the wingtip and the leading edge at the root of the vertical fin should determine whether the wings are equally swept.
 
No, I don't think that is safe. 1/4" or 3/8" would probably be OK, but even then I would make the spacer with as big an OD as fits on the plate. That spindly little 3/4" spacer gives me the willies.

Thanks, Bob K.

Looks to me the spacer is only there to prevent the rod end from sliding out of position. It is the bolt (AN3 or 4 presumably) which carries the vast majority of the load. The original part was basically the same thing except the rod end captured to the bolt end without the need of a spacer.

If you don't know how to calculate the load on the bolt give Van's a call before making any other suggested changes based only upon "how it looks". my .02
 
Looks to me the spacer is only there to prevent the rod end from sliding out of position. It is the bolt (AN3 or 4 presumably) which carries the vast majority of the load. The original part was basically the same thing except the rod end captured to the bolt end without the need of a spacer.

If you don't know how to calculate the load on the bolt give Van's a call before making any other suggested changes based only upon "how it looks". my .02

Everyone's info and suggestions were extremely helpful, thanks for that. I think the reason I ran into this problem is that my left wing has a slight forward sweep, but apparently not enough to create any noticeable adverse flight characteristics. I ended up just cutting the hole in the fuselage upward more and I was able to reduce my spacer to an acceptable length. I am satisfied with my setup now, and I owe it to you guys, thanks again for the help.
 
Looks to me the spacer is only there to prevent the rod end from sliding out of position. It is the bolt (AN3 or 4 presumably) which carries the vast majority of the load...

I don't believe that is necessarily correct.

For one thing, cantilevering out 3/4" or so on a 1/4" shaft and expecting it to repeatedly react flap extension loads gives me way more shivers than what is shown. I'm not an engineer, but I regularly use formulas from standard references such as Machinery's Handbook to design mechanisms and structures to react bending. Assuming that an AN4 bolt is good for 125ksi, it looks to me like that bolt will start bending at an applied moment of about 125 in-lbs. So a 3/4" long bolt would bend at an applied force of about 167 lbs. I don't know how much force multiplication there is in the manual flap lever, but I have to believe that it is at least 3:1. So a handle force of only 55 lbs would cause the bolt to bend. That may sound like a lot, but it's not. Applying the flaps at the top of the white arc probably takes half again that much force.

Here's the engineering test that Steve Smith taught me to apply: visualize that AN4 bolt sticking 3/4" out of the side of a tree or maybe out of the granite half way up El Capitan. Would you place your whole body weight on its bolt head and trust your life to it?

Historical note: The early ascents of El Cap all relied heavily on 1/4" steel rivets hammered into hand-drilled holes in the granite. However, these rivets were hammered all the way in against steel hangers to which rope and webbing was attached, so they were loaded primarily in shear, not bending. A fresh 1/4" steel rivet is good for around 2000 lbs of shear. Less fresh rivets are a different matter; I've seen rusty 1/4" rivets broken under body weight.

Regardless, in the situation at hand there has to be some clamping force between the bolt and the spacer in order to transmit bending. Otherwise the bolt will just wallow over in the shallow hole in the plate on the flap. That would make a mess of that plate in short order. This situation is similar to that of the rod ends used for elevator and rudder hinges; the jam nuts at their bases must be snug in order for them to react bending effectively into their attachments on the stabilizer spars.

Anyhow, the extended bolt and spacer look scary enough, but I think that the real problem is that the bending applied by the bolt and spacer has to be reacted into the relatively thin aluminum plate on the end of the flap. That plate and its attachments were probably designed to be loaded primarily in shear, not with the kind of bending moment applied when you move the rod end inboard substantially. Loading it in bending will drastically increase the rate at which it fatigues.

As a final note, the reason I take this kind of thing pretty seriously is that asymmetrical flap deployment is often a killer situation. At altitude there is often time to get things sorted out, reduce the symmetry to the degree practical, and limp in to a landing. However, flaps are often applied during landing where there just isn't that kind of margin.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
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I don't believe that is necessarily correct.

For one thing, cantilevering out 3/4" or so on a 1/4" shaft and expecting it to repeatedly react flap extension loads gives me way more shivers than what is shown.
(snip)

As a final note, the reason I take this kind of thing pretty seriously is that asymmetrical flap deployment is often a killer situation. At altitude there is often time to get things sorted out, reduce the symmetry to the degree practical, and limp in to a landing. However, flaps are often applied during landing where there just isn't that kind of margin.

Thanks, Bob K.

Do the math on that cantilevered bolt!:eek: What is an acceptable length? What Bob is saying is what I tried unsusessfuly to say in my first post.:)
 
I don't believe that is necessarily correct.

For one thing, cantilevering out 3/4" or so on a 1/4" shaft and expecting it to repeatedly react flap extension loads gives me way more shivers than what is shown. I'm not an engineer, but I regularly use formulas from standard references such as Machinery's Handbook to design mechanisms and structures to react bending. Assuming that an AN4 bolt is good for 125ksi, it looks to me like that bolt will start bending at an applied moment of about 125 in-lbs. So a 3/4" long bolt would bend at an applied force of about 167 lbs. I don't know how much force multiplication there is in the manual flap lever, but I have to believe that it is at least 3:1. So a handle force of only 55 lbs would cause the bolt to bend. That may sound like a lot, but it's not. Applying the flaps at the top of the white arc probably takes half again that much force.

Here's the engineering test that Steve Smith taught me to apply: visualize that AN4 bolt sticking 3/4" out of the side of a tree or maybe out of the granite half way up El Capitan. Would you place your whole body weight on its bolt head and trust your life to it?

Historical note: The early ascents of El Cap all relied heavily on 1/4" steel rivets hammered into hand-drilled holes in the granite. However, these rivets were hammered all the way in against steel hangers to which rope and webbing was attached, so they were loaded primarily in shear, not bending. A fresh 1/4" steel rivet is good for around 2000 lbs of shear. Less fresh rivets are a different matter; I've seen rusty 1/4" rivets broken under body weight.

Regardless, in the situation at hand there has to be some clamping force between the bolt and the spacer in order to transmit bending. Otherwise the bolt will just wallow over in the shallow hole in the plate on the flap. That would make a mess of that plate in short order. This situation is similar to that of the rod ends used for elevator and rudder hinges; the jam nuts at their bases must be snug in order for them to react bending effectively into their attachments on the stabilizer spars.

Anyhow, the extended bolt and spacer look scary enough, but I think that the real problem is that the bending applied by the bolt and spacer has to be reacted into the relatively thin aluminum plate on the end of the flap. That plate and its attachments were probably designed to be loaded primarily in shear, not with the kind of bending moment applied when you move the rod end inboard substantially. Loading it in bending will drastically increase the rate at which it fatigues.

As a final note, the reason I take this kind of thing pretty seriously is that asymmetrical flap deployment is often a killer situation. At altitude there is often time to get things sorted out, reduce the symmetry to the degree practical, and limp in to a landing. However, flaps are often applied during landing where there just isn't that kind of margin.

Thanks, Bob K.

Exactly why I said to either calculate the load or call the engineer instead of guessing... BTW the original part is cantelivered as well, not to this degree, but it is cantelivered.
 
Exactly why I said to either calculate the load or call the engineer instead of guessing... BTW the original part is cantelivered as well, not to this degree, but it is cantelivered.

Sent a picture of my new setup to Van's. They didn't seem to like it. Now I am back to trying to get the original part to fit. The hole in my fuselage is going to have to get even bigger, but I dont know if I can make it any bigger. I am really worried that I am screwed.
 
Sent a picture of my new setup to Van's. They didn't seem to like it. Now I am back to trying to get the original part to fit. The hole in my fuselage is going to have to get even bigger, but I dont know if I can make it any bigger. I am really worried that I am screwed.

Can anyone else comment on my lastest setup?

3/8 inch long spacer is what i got it down to.

flap.jpg
 
Sent a picture of my new setup to Van's. They didn't seem to like it. Now I am back to trying to get the original part to fit. The hole in my fuselage is going to have to get even bigger, but I dont know if I can make it any bigger. I am really worried that I am screwed.

I am not a fan of modification to the control systems, like adding spacers etc...,
But don't jump off the cliff just yet. As mentioned, cutting up the side of the fuselage is very common on other models, specifically the 6 in my case. You may not be that far off. Measure everything carefully to make sure there is not a bigger build issue but I seriously doubt there is.
Send pictures of the hole you have already trimmed if you can and let others with 8 build experience chime in on what they encountered.
Sit back, relax, and don't worry. This is solvable.
 
Can anyone else comment on my lastest setup?

3/8 inch long spacer is what i got it down to.

flap.jpg

Matt - double check your flap construction and the flap hinge measurements. It may be this picture, but it almost looks like the flap is outboard of what the normal position would be. It also looks like the flap skin overhang is wider than normal. I am not that familiar with the 8 flap/fuselage intersection so it could just be the picture fooling me. it is worth double checking.
 
Can anyone else comment on my lastest setup?

3/8 inch long spacer is what i got it down to...

I think I wrote this before: If I was to make a spacer like that, I would not make it that skinny. It looks to me like that is either 5/16" or 3/8" outside diameter aluminum tube. What I would strongly suggest is that you make the spacer with as large an OD as fits in that location. I think that a 3/4" OD spacer would fit, so I would suggest you use that.

Even if you have to file a flat on it to make it clear the skin, it's better than the little tubular spacer you have now. The greater the footprint of the spacer, the lower the concentrated loads on the drive plate will be.

Regardless, I second JonJay's advice to double-check the flap hinges. Even if it is a quickbuild, there is a chance that it has been miss-assembled so that the flap is further outboard than it should be. Like maybe the hinge is displaced outboard by half a knuckle, so the flap is 1/2" off.

Thanks, Bob K.